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Balintawak vs. Balintawak Self-Defense Club

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The title of the article is Balintawak, not Balintawak Self-Defense Club. Though the club existed, it shouldn't be teh focus of this article; if it's notable, perhaps it merits its own article. I don't think the first, bolded mention in the article on Balintawak should be of Balintawak Self-Defense Club. nor should it be the recurring reference. JJL (talk) 17:27, 29 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

History of...

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The title of this article could more appropriately be titled "History of Balintawak Arnis" - Arnis Balintawak. The sport is still in practice in many parts of the world. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Xxdriftwoodxx (talk • contribs) 04:34, 2 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I guess what I'm really trying to say is that this article would be better with some information about modern Balintawak Xxdriftwoodxx (talk) 04:38, 2 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Balintawak Escrima origination

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Please stop changing where Balintawak Originated as you can see in the image there are 4 original members who started Balintawak Escrima.

this are the original creators of Balintawak Escrima not venacio bacon alone.. Vencio Bacon was not educated to form a club.... Atty. Jose Villasin was all behind the creation Chamz369 (talk) 20:55, 22 August 2009 (UTC) joe[reply]

please give Credit to the Brains behind the formalization of the club who is Atty Jose Villasin.. Venacio Bacon knew escrima but he was not educated enough to actually group the training to what it is right now... under the tutelage of Venacio Bacon .. Atty. Jose Villasin was an instructor also for Escrima at UV universtiy of the Visayas so he had to Structure Escrima to how it is right now....

Do you have a citation for this claim? JJL (talk) 22:55, 22 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
before we proceed May I ask also Do you have citation to back your disagreement? Chamz369 (talk) 03:21, 23 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
May I respectfully point out that the burden of proof lies on you Chamz369? If you have books or other literature that would shed light on the true origin of the Martial Art in question, please feel free to provide the article with the pertinent citation or reference. Cheers! — •KvЯt GviЯnЭlБ• Speak! 03:35, 23 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'm asking for a citation to the change you made to the consensus version of the article. It should be backed by WP:RS. If you felt a previous claim was not properly backed it would be best to ask for a cite by so tagging it rather than introducing conflicting uncited evidence. (Edit conflict.) That is, I agree with Kguirnela. JJL (talk) 03:36, 23 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Then again respectfully please provide me - with the citation and the names of your so called "concensus version" ... if you are so good with some of Cebu's History certaily you can provide the Citation yourself of your findings ..... the Burden of proof certainly lies on me ... I know Cebu .. I studied with the Atty. Jose Villasin Himself and his sons they have talked about this matter to me so many times ... but please... in the mean time ... provide your citation also .. so we can remove the burden of proof that lies on you... Chamz369 (talk) 06:40, 23 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
here are some online reading
slightly different story
you have to understand this Escrima ..is a business to many practitioers.. is profitable for a lot of practicioners and a lot of then will "lie" so potential students will study with them ... you have to research Atty. Jose Villasin and Venacio Bacon history ...
My story to you is what I heard from Atty. Jose Villasin himself and children... So many people have taken advantage of Atty. Villasin Legacy and none was passed on to his Children... it is time now that Atty. Villasin and heirs claim what is rightfully theirs... Chamz369 (talk) 07:08, 23 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Please familiarize yourself with Wikipedia's policies on reliable sources. Much of the self-published sources enumerated above are not qualified as reliable, third-party, published sources. Also, verbatim "I studied with the Atty. Jose Villasin Himself and his sons they have talked about this matter to me so many times ..", that may constitute original research and is also taboo in Wikipedia. I'll check out visayanmartialarts.com and necopa.org for whatever information may be gleaned from the respective sites. Also, please read WP:COI and WP:Consensus for further guidance. Cheers! — •KvЯt GviЯnЭlБ• Speak! 08:56, 23 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]


but most of the sources around are also unreliable including those published in UK, US and others those books are written to make money not to publish the true facts .. this is why I am asking you your source what makes your source truthful than the real facts? Chamz369 (talk) 17:59, 23 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

those publish sources from UK an US only spent a months to a few years and most likely interviewed the wrong people who heard the story from another person ... Chamz369 (talk) 18:04, 23 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Please look at WP:RS. People will always disagree about what is the truth. The way Wikipedia has chosen to settle such matters is to ask for reliable sources that verify a claim. You're right that it's fair to ask others to back up their claims, but you're the one now making a change to a fairly stable consensus version of a page, and it's incumbent upon you to back up that claim. We're not here promoting one side over the other--just the Wikipedia process. There are sources that back up the Bacon claim. They may be wrong! But Wikipedia handles such matters via published sources. JJL (talk) 21:19, 23 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Original form of Balintawak being taught - Question - discussion?

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Systematizing the curriculum Bacon's successors soon began to systematize the Balintawak curriculum. One was a lawyer named Jose Villasin, who set about to group the style into its various categories so that his students could master one set of related techniques and then move onto the next set of related techniques and he also teach the "Traditional Balintawak System" the old method of Balintawak System to few of his chosen student. At this point, several distinct schools of Balintawak emerged. Many of Bacon’s Balintawak students and some of his and the Saavedra's Doce Pares students continued to teach in the old method of random instruction, while Villasin taught in his "grouping" style.[1]

Today, it may be concluded that the original Balintawak of Bacon is no longer taught, though there are a number of Balintawak groups that continue to teach their version of the system. Some instructors use a "grouping" method for teaching the techniques while others continue to teach single responses in the original way. The principles and concepts of Balintawak have, however, found their way into many different Filipino martial arts methods, most notably Balintawak student Remy Presas' Modern Arnis.[2]

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From the above I would admit I have not contributed and maybe out of order, I learned Balintawak from my Instructor Ted Buot, who was the only one to teach at Bacon's club on Balintawak Street when Bacon was not present or while, he was present. Bacon would walk in and take the stick from Ted and when he was done he would had the stick back to Ted and leave. Ted would continue to teach at that point. (* I have no sited source material. I have only the word of instructor my instructor which I have posted on forums and none of the different family branches have disagreed with. *)

My main question is that if Manong Ted learned from Manong Anciong and Manong Ted taught me the same way he learned it, and I teach it one on one as well does that not mean the art is still being taught in its' original format? (* I have taught some single techniques in the seminar format, but I try to make it clear that the seminar format of learning is not the way I teach Balintawak as an Art. *) Or is the argument that Anciong is not alive to verify so it is not a mute point? Or is it that the Grouping systems have organizations and a larger following? I am not trying to be argumentative, only asking a question.

Thanks Rich Parsons (talk) 18:36, 10 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]


As with my other question, I am not here to change anything, but to better understand. If I understand where people are coming from and the intent and purpose then I can make suggestions, and if they are implemented or not is not the issue.

Thanks Rich Parsons (talk) 20:31, 10 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Removal of Ted Buot from Notable Instructors

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Notable practitioners Many Balintawak eskrimadors have become notable. These include Timoteo Maranga, Arnulfo Mongcal, Jose Villasin, Teodoro and Sam Buot, Teofilo Velez, and Bobby Taboada. They are be responsible for spreading Balintawak around the world. The two most prolific teachers of Balintawak were Villasin and Velez. Some of the better-known current instructors are John Villasin (only son of Jose Villasin), Sam Buot, Sergio Arcel, Arturo Sanchez, Bobby Tabimina, Nick Elizar, , Chito, Monnie and Eddie Velez, Nene Gaabucayan, Bobby Taboada, Carlo Kaloy Campaña, Danilo Casio, Crispulo Atillo, Rich Parsons, Paul Janulis and Henry Jayme.

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First, Thanks to JJL, I believe for adding my name to the list. I am asking this question just to verify, I assume you removed Manong Ted Buot’s name as he is no longer practicing and as I am one of his students you have entered mine? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rich Parsons (talk • contribs) 18:39, 10 December 2009 (UTC) Rich Parsons (talk) 18:41, 10 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I would not have removed Ted Buot (at least, not on purpose; editing errors happen)--he's still listed in the sidebar, for example. JJL (talk) 20:24, 10 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

TxT

JJL - My apologies ) did not mean to come across like he was completely removed. I was asking was he removed as he is currently not teaching? Just trying to understand. I did see him in the side bar and also in another section so I saw no malice, just trying to get smarter on how and why things are done. :~) Rich Parsons (talk) 20:30, 10 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Balintawak Grand Master Rico Carino in Cagayan de Oro City

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Hi, I added GM Rico Carino of Balintawak Gold Gym in Cagayan de Oro City (Still actively teaching). He's a contemporary of GM Nene Gaabucayan. If you wish to verify his authenticity, you may contact GM Rico Carino at his landline number (08822)728287 or Cell# 09154358909. I was one of GM Rico's students.

Engr. Mitchell L. Flores — Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.127.16.53 (talk) 21:34, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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