Talk:Baldock

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Can any of the good residents of the town of Baldock confirm (with a reference) that the Baldock Beer Disaster occurred? It's too wonderful not to include in WIkipedia, but sounds suspiciously like a grand and glorious hoax. Williamborg 16:09, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Ludwig II of Bavaria in Baldock???

This curious story of Ludwig II of Bavaria having travelled to England and having 'toured Hertfordshire extensively' on the advice of Richard Wallace is a hoax!! In NONE of Ludwig's biographies (and there are very many of those!)is a trip to England ever mentioned, only apparently in one biography of Wallace. Nor is the tower of any of the designs for Falkenstein (this is the castle near Pfronten that never got beyond the stage of designs - but there were four distinct designs) remotely like any British church tower, and certainly not the one of St. Mary's Baldock. I suggest this paragraph to be stricken from the article. 94.209.236.129 (talk) 22:32, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Hi, I have added a disputed-inline tag, which in the circumstances is the appropriate action to deal with a disputed statement where a contradictory position is claimed as it encourages discussion on the Talk Page. As Wikipedia relies on verification of content, regardless of your contention that these statements should be struck out because there are two substantive citations which I presume have been there for some time these have been provided in support. So the pros and cons need to be debated here and concensus achieved; to allow the staus quo, to add amended text by putting citations and text for and against, or just strike out.

As an Aunt Sally I propose because the current citations are not going to be readily accessible to most editors a précis of the evidence contained in the two cited books is provided here plus evidence of your contention in the form of a cite refuting the story or alternative verifiable evidence be summarised here. Btw I have viewed your edit on the Ludwig II article hoped it would include a citation to support your contentions however your comments have been added without any supporting citations to support your contentions which would have been helpful here.Tmol42 (talk) 00:30, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Hi. You wanted me to provide some citations to support my theory that Ludwig II never was in Baldock or even travelled to England. Both the article on Ludwig II of Bavaria and the one on Baldock claim he was there in 1879, and the Ludwig-artcle even suggests that he 'travelled extensively through Hertfordshire'. Now it is always more difficult to prove that something did not happen than to prove that something did. I base my claim on a number of books. Firstly, there are various books on the castles that Ludwig did build and that all provide biographical notes: the official guides to Herrenchiemsee, Linderhof and Neuschwanstein (Gerhard Hojer, Michael Petzet; Bayerischen Verwaltung der Staatlichen Schlösser, Seen und Gärten, München, editions almost yearly, mine are from 1972 and 1978), Bayerischen Königsschlösser (Sigrid Russ, Süddeuthscher Verlag, 1979), Götterdämmerung (Catalogue of the exposition 'König Ludwig II und seine Zeit', Herrenchiemsee 14 May - 16 October 2011, Haus der Bayerischen Geschichte, München, 2011, in 2 volumes), Die Traumschlösser Köng Ludwigs II, Jacques Mercaton, Josef Keller Verlag, Starnberg 1964), Bayerns Märchenkönig (Anton Sailer, Bruckmann, München, 1961) an Die Schlösser Ludwigs II (Heinz Spielmann, Pawlak Verlag, Hersching, 1977) - all of these make no mention of a trip to Hertfordshire in 1879. Also the biography The Mad King (Greg King, Aurum Press Ltd, London, 1997) does not mention a trip to England or a correspondence with Wallace. Then there is a number of books that provide one with a chronology of Ludwig's life. The Dream King (Wilfred Blunt, Penguin Books, Harmondsworth, 1970), p. 256 states: '1879: Linderhof virtually finished'; nothing else. Die Welt des Bayerischen Märchenkönigs (Michael Petzet, Werner Neumeister, Prestel Verlag, München, 1980), p. 192: '1879: Bismarck unterrichtet den König Ludwig II über seine Ostpolitik', and nothing else. Gebaute Träume (Michael Petzet, Hirmer Verlag, München, 1995), p. 294: '1879: Januar: Das Hauptgebäude von Schloss Herrenchiemsee wird im Rohbau unter Dach gebracht'; again: nothing else. The year 1879 must have been a rather uneventful one by all accounts. Had Ludwig been to England and would he have travelled Hertfordshire extensively, one would expect at least one of these books to have mentioned it. Furthermore, Auf den Spuren König Ludwigs II (Hans F. Nöhbauer, Prestel Verlag München, 1985) devotes an entire chapter to Ludwigs travels, pp. 207 - 225; apart from the travels in Germany (1864, 1866 and 1867) the foreign travels are to Switzerland (20 October - 2 November 1865), Tribschen (Switzerland) (22 May - 24 May 1866), again Switzerland with Jozef Kainz (27 June - 14 July 1881), Paris (20 - 29 July 1867 - also to Compiègne and Pierrefonds) and Versailles (21 -28 August 1874 - a trip which also included Reims). This is a complete listing, and again: no mention of Hertfordshire! Then there is the matter of St. Mary's Baldock having inspired the tower of Falkenstein Castle. I don't know how to include pictures, so I have to refer to your knowledge of the exterior of St. Mary's and to the four subsequent designs for Falkenstein, by Christian Jank (1883, Cat. 303), Georg Dollmann (1884, Cat 514), Max Schultze (1884, without number) and Julius Hoffmann (1886, Cat. 2671a) and also the wooden model of the slightly modified Hoffmann design (1884, Cat. 198). Catalogue numbers are those of the König Ludwig II-Museum Herrenciemsee; pictures can be found on pp. 298-299 and 303 of the official catalogue (Bayerischen Verwaltung der Staatlichen Schlösser, Seen und Gärten, München, 1986). Finally, there is a point that is not explicitly stated in any of these books, but can be inferred from reading a lot about the (sad) life of Ludwig II. After Wagner had been forced into exile and after Bavaria had lost a considerable part of its independence, so after 1870, Ludwig withdrew more and more from public life; by 1879, his own ministers couldn't get to see him, and he lived almost exclusively in his dream world so well represented by his castles. At this point of his life, for this shy and withdrawn man to travel to England is so completely out of character as to be unbelievable. I hope that with the above I have presented my case more verifiably and convincingly than before. But, as I said at the outset, it is easier to prove that something did happen than the other way around. So, if you could convincingly prove to me that this trip did happen, and show me convincingly that the architecture of St Mary's can be traced in the designs for Falkenstein, I would only be too interested! Kind regards, Fred 94.209.236.129 (talk) 01:19, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

P.S You cite Wilfrid Blunt's The Dream King. You obviously have a different edition from mine, as p. 121 makes no mention of Falkenstein, Wallace or Baldock. Falkenstein is mentioned in my edition on p 238, in the chapter 'Ludwig and the Arts' by Michael Petzet. I've read this book very thoroughly and very often, and have not come across England, Hertfordshire, Baldock or Wallace, which is only confirmed by the Index, which lists none of these. So please give me the exact quote from your edition! Fred 94.209.236.129 (talk) 01:27, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Hi Fred, You seem to think I am an advocat for Ludwig having been in Baldock. Your PS even goes as far to suggest that I have cited a specific source and that I must have a different edition to you. I have not made any such claims and make it clear I have no access to any of the specialist texts. I am neutral and agnostic about it. If you go back and reread my comments above, the point I make is as a third party editor trying to assess the pros and cons of opposing views and seeing an article with a couple of citations which have been there unchallanced for a significant period apparently providing reliable sources for his presence in Baldock needs to have the opposite arguement presented with comparable citations. As your opening statement had not made any cited reference to the contrary I suggested therefore that the onus is on you to succinctly provide the evidence behind your contention. Please try an avoid jumping to conclusions about others views as this clouds objectivity. I think, having read your extensive essay several times you have put forward the counter argument comprehensively enough! I suggest you go ahead and redraft that section, using whichever of your sources to the effect that whilst there has been claims that Ludwig visited Baldock (leaving intact and making use of the cites preciously provided supporting the claim) that there is evidence that this claim is incorrect. I also suggest a comparable rewording of the Ludwig article is needed as the changes you made there are uncited as present.Tmol42 (talk) 13:45, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Hi Tmo142. Thanks. OK, I will, once I've figured out how to add footnotes in Wikipedia. I'm quite new to all this, and will have to study a few pages before I'll be able to do it correctly. So bear with me! But once I have, I may also have to brush up my French, for the French page on Ludwig also mentions Hertfordshire, Wallace and Baldock. Fred 94.209.236.129 (talk) 15:43, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Hi Fred, Happy to help with the citations if you just put in the ISBN I can do the rest if it helps but then its worth it in the long term if you play around with it yourself. Lots of help on these pages but here's just a couple with links to other usful pages Citation Manual and Templates Tmol42 (talk) 16:09, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Hi Tmo142. I found and bought Donald Mallett's The Greatest Collector, Macmillan London Limited, 1979, ISBN 0 333 24467 2. On p. 171 - the only place in the book where Ludwig II is mentioned - it says: 'Wallace's fame had spread also to the court of Ludwig II, the mad King of Bavaria. In his passion for building castles, the king must have decided that Wallace as a Scotsman was the best person to supply him with illustrations of castles he had never seen but which he imagined were perched on craggy mountains in the Highlands of Scotland. Wallace sent him photographs, drawings and engravings of castles and buildings in the British Isles with which Ludwig was well satisfied, for he is said to have wished to give him a decoration. This did not occur, but as a sign of his gratitude he sent him in 1883, through the German ambassador in London, an engraved portrait of himself which Wallace hung in his study. It is also probable that he may have advised the king on French eighteenth-century decoration and furnishing.' All this without a single reference or quote, but with a lot of 'must have', 'is said to have , 'probable' ... Thus: even this book states that no visit to England ever took place, as do all biographies of Ludwig, books on the architecture of his castles and the very well-documented catalogue of the Ludwig II Museum in Herrenchiemsee. Of course, this also is true for the presumed inspiration of St. Mary's Baldock on the design for Falkenstein. I felt I was entitled on the grounds that the one presumed source for the myth that Ludwig had ever been in England in fact states that he hadn't to remove all reference to Ludwig from the Baldock entry, as well as from the Ludwig article. And this also goes for the rather ludicrous claim that the tower of Falkenstein was based on that of St. Mary's Baldock. Fred Ludwig2002nl (talk) 11:16, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Agatha Christie's The Case of the Missing Will

I removed the paragraph under 'Baldock in literature' that stated that Baldock is mentioned in Agatha Christie's short story 'The Case of the Missing Will',. Apart from the few pages, which take place in Poirot's rooms in London, the story is set in Devonshire. The only reference to travelling comes on p. 157: 'Tired of our journey and the eight mile drive from the station, we [...]'. No Baldock, no car breaking down; but just a train and an apparently uneventful drive from the station to Crabtree Manor. The story was also filmed with David Suchet in the celebrated series 'Agatha Christie's Poirot'; here, there IS a mention of Baldock a few minutes into the story. Hastings' car has had a puncture in Baldock, causing them to arrive late for a debate in Cambridge. However, all this is not in the original short story. Ludwig2002nl (talk) 15:03, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

References

Balstock

Hi Tmo142 This morning I added reference toa regular event in Baldock (the free, charity Balstock festival which is now in its 7th year). It appears you have taken it down and it appears it may be due to it being an advert. I dont quite understand this; I guess it is an advert in the same way as the Baldock beer festival or Hitchin's Rhythms of the world and they seem to be acceptable. The event is in its 7th year and thousands pounds have been raised for renovation of the parish church tower and this year, the restoration of the town hall. Please can you advise how I can add an acceptable section on this annual charity event — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yintsinme (talk • contribs) 15:53, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

Ofcom - Baldock radio monitoring station

Is this in Baldock itself, and so should be mentioned? http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/enforcement/spectrum-enforcement/baldock/ John a s (talk) 23:08, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

External links modified

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