Talk:Balcha Safo

Origin, name and descent

There appears to be differing opinions on his ethnic affinity (Gurage or Oromo), e.g. here and Twitter discussion here. This needs to be documented, with better citations found. Laterthanyouthink (talk) 13:44, 20 March 2020 (UTC)

He is from bete gurage. His grand children's are alive and claim that they are gurages. Nahom47u6 (talk) 00:21, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

March 2022

@Destaneshe: The above discussion claims his family are alive and claiming Gurage, contrary to your edit summary. Please provide the youtube link [[1]] you were alluding to? (though probably not really reliable source for wikipedia) Dawit S Gondaria (talk) 00:35, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

Balcha aba nefso

M 196.189.24.229 (talk) 10:12, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

Balcha Safo ethnicity

@Socialwave597: We can discuss here. For the second source, I didn't find where it explicitly claimed he was Gurage. Can you quote and cite the page? From what you said, it seems like the author is saying he is from Gurageland, rather then being of actual Gurage descent. Abrasax123 (talk) 13:12, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

Please read page 606 of Between the Jaws of the Hyena, it says he was of mixed Gurage-Oromo descent.[2] Here is another source by Harold G. Marcus that describes him and Habte Giyorgis as being Gurages aswell.[3]. I don't really want to play semantics with you, if the source says he is from a Gurage region, it can be assumed that he is of Gurage origin. That isn't original research. Socialwave597 (talk) 17:54, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

Page 606 states Habta-Giyorgis is a mixed Gurage-Oromo, something that I do not deny. However, it says no where of Balcha being of Gurage descent. It is reffering to Giyorgis being of Gurage descent, NOT Balcha. The sentence is saying that both Giyorgis and Balcha are former war captives, not that both are Gurage-Oromo. It is only saying one person is of Gurage descent and that is Giyorgis, this is basic sentence formations.

Your second argument is very weak. Merely being born in a particular region doesn't automatically define your ethnicity. Using your line of reasoning, then Amharas from Welega should all be considered Oromo because they were born in Oromia. Similarly, all Oromos born in Wollo would be considered Amhara based solely on their birthplace in the Amhara region. Abrasax123 (talk) 21:25, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

Are you seriously trying to escalate this into an edit war? Both of the sources explicitly say he is of Gurage origins, no amount of semantics will ever change this. "Sidamo was taken from the independent-minded Lul-Säggäd and given to Balcha Safo ( d. 1936 ). This parvenu of despised Guragé origins received the title of däjjazmach as a further reward for his loyalty and skill as artillerist." Your analogy is silly because Amharas are not native to Wellega, they only arrived there during the Derg era with the resettlement programs. However, Gurages are indigenous to Gurageland, hence the name. Balcha Safo first enters the historical record when he was captured in his Gurage homeland per the sources. But this doesn't matter anymore because I've given you two sources explicitly saying he is of Gurage origins. If you are still not convinced we need to request a third opinion here. Socialwave597 (talk) 04:17, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Understand that I am not trying to escalate this into an edit war. I've just seen a lot of misinformation around the internet regarding Balcha's ethnicity.

None of those two sources explicitly state Balcha is of the Gurage ethnic group. I've already explained why the first source doesn't state him as Gurage and the second source states he is from Gurageland. There were many of ethnic Oromos who resided in Gurageland due to the Oromo migrations so Oromos are not native to Gurageland. I've tried to even debunk myself by trying to find sources that state his ethnicity is Gurage but I couldn't find not even one. I accept that he was born in Gurageland but deny that he was of Gurage descent. I have many more sources that state Balcha Safo's ethnicity as Oromo however.

We just need one source that explicitly states Balcha as Gurage. Abrasax123 (talk) 13:14, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Enough of this nonsense. Page 606 of of Between the Jaws of the Hyena says he was of "despised Guragé origins". We now have one source that explicitly states that he was of Gurage origins, so I think we are done here now. Revert your edit. Socialwave597 (talk) 03:40, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

It shouldn't be reverted. One source says he is Gurage while over eight sources says he is Oromo. Does that one source outweigh the other eight sources? The reasonable edit should state that he is from Gurageland and is of Galla descent. I have one or more sources that claim Menelik, Tewodros, Yohannes and other Ethiopian leaders are of Oromo descent, must I add them? Abrasax123 (talk) 03:40, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

First you said that we need one source, which I gave you (multiple actually) and now you're saying that I need more. Looks like we're making no progress here at all. I'll call for a third opinion. Socialwave597 (talk) 22:52, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

You gave me one source that explicitly states Safo's ethnicity. If you can only find one single source that states he is Gurage whilst all other sources states he is Oromo, then there is a clear problem here. Abrasax123 (talk) 17:33, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

@Abrasax123 Here's more: [4][5][6][7][8][9]. I initially didn't want to ref spam and instead use high quality sources but this is way more then enough. Please revert your edit now. Socialwave597 (talk) 05:41, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

These sources are much better. I will revert my edit. Abrasax123 (talk) 11:05, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

If one source identifies the subject as Gurage, how about adding a footnote after the inline citations? (For example, "Richard Caulk identifies Balcha Safo as being of Gurage descent" and then put an inline citation to that effect in the footnote.) -- Gyrofrog (talk) 14:21, 11 March 2024 (UTC)