Talk:Börek/Archive 1

Archive 1

Börek in Turkmenistan

But it is not pastry. It occurs as food/meal. It is cooking in boiling water. There are two types of BÖREK as food in Türkmenistan.
"Yumurtgali Börek" means "Börek with eggs"
"Etli Börek" means "Börek with meat"

Proposed Merge

As this food is of Turkish provenance, and it appears to be the same as Turkish börek, I suggest it be merged with that page under the title "Börek" or "Borek". I am not trying to promote Turkish naming over others, but it seems appropriate here. --Chinawhitecotton 10:37, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Hmmmmmmmmm... now, you are right. "Börek" and "Burek" (caution: common spelling error! It is not Borek but Burek) are closely related and are probably the same thing (never been to Turkey, so I don't know). But, we could have a problem since for people from former Yugoslavia burek is pretty important cultural icon, and merging it with börek could produce complaints...

This is what we can do. We can merge it, but preserve to separate sections. One section named Börek, and one section named Burek. Common properties of burek and börek can be merged, but I insist on having a "Burek" section because, burek in ex-Yu and börek in Turkey are not in relationship in which pizza in USA and pizza in Italy are. Burek is of Turkish origin, but it has a life of it's own in western Balkans, so it shouldn't just be drowned into Börek article.

Lets wait for a few days and see if anybody else discusses here, and if not, the merge can be executed (although I feel like selling out my own children by allowing the article about burek to reside under name of Börek :-| Yes, I'm terribly emotionally bound to burek, I eat it every time I get drunk ;-) ). --Dijxtra 13:08, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

I support the merge. Note that there is also an Albanian variant in article Byrek, which should also be merged in. I must say I share Dijxtra's thoughts... Duja 14:56, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

I also support the merge, but under this name. Google gives 329000 English hits for burek, 23800 for börek, and 9760 for byrek.

Note also that burek is not of Turkish, but of Persian origin. Nikola 08:47, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Alas, it's difficult to tell anything about it using Google, as there is many hits on various surnames Burek (Czech origin?), Dino Merlin's album, and www.burek.co.yu (Burek Forum). Duja 10:22, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Aren't the album and the forums named after burek? So, they still apply. Nikola 09:12, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes, and if we want to ask Google, "borek" gets 1.4 million hits, including Borek Construction Company...[1]

Nicola, what do they call this food in Persian? And, out of curiosity, how do you know it is Persian? What if we found that they ate it on the steps of Central Asia, then we would have to call it something else...--Chinawhitecotton 10:30, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

I won't speak for him, but there's probably something in his words; Bierock and Russian Pirogi appear to be cognates. So, it's possible that something similar was eaten in PIE (proto-indo-european, not pie :-) ) days. I'd suggest something like "Origin of the food is usually attributed to the Turkish cuisine, but blah blah suggests that the word is even older." in the intro. This does seem to be kind of against Wikipedia:No original research policy, but let's try to dig something out. I'll ask on sci.lang Usenet group... Duja 10:43, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Searching the sci.lang archives yields only this post. Not exactly a reference though. I'll ask a question of my own (although those people tend to dillute the discussions to unusability.) Duja 10:48, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

I searched the word in a dictionary of Turcisms, and it was written that it has Persian origin (meaning simply "pie" IIRC).

I didn't want to say that we should call it differently depending on its origin, just noted that correct origin should be in the article. And, we won't discover that they ate it on the steppes of central Asia. Nomadic cultures usually don't carry around large quantities of wheat, milling stones so that they could mill it, large tables so that they could make phyllo, and ovens so that they could bake it (this is a bit of exagerration, but you got my point). They concentrate on meat and dairies, and food that could be made on open fire and quickly. So, whatever the origin of any phyllo meal is, in all likeness it isn't Turkish. Nikola 09:12, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Hmm, did (do?) the nomads of the steppes not use any kind of flour? Anyway, I see your point, although my mention of the steppes was a bit of exageration too...--Chinawhitecotton 18:26, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Searching for (B*rek cheese OR pie OR meat OR phyllo) gives 44,100 for Burek [2] and 85,100 for Börek/Borek [3]. Duja 10:33, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

About the Persian origins... I'll ask my Persian language teacher on Monday (yes, I happen to attend Persian classes) and see what she can tell me or if she can find any references on that. Sooooo, I propose we postpone the merge and keep the status quo until we do some more research. Not original research but research on existing literature. --Dijxtra 11:20, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Hmm. One, Google has its algorithm for searching variations of a word with or without accents. So, when you force the exact word, you get only 807 for börek[4] but 78000 for borek[5].

Two, it seems to me from some searches that börek means simply "pie", or at least "pie made of fillo" in Turkish, is that correct? These things aren't bureks.

Hm, hm. Those things indeed aren't burek's... now I'm begining to think this merge is not such a good idea... --Dijxtra 11:40, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Based on my experience (about 1.5 years in Turkey) börek really is the same as what is in the photo on the burek page. I don't know about that link, but it might have been some type of home made or specialty borek - does not normally look like that, at least at the typical borek restaurant in Istanbul. I think "pie with phyllo" is just a attempt at translation. Pie in Turkish is tart, which , like kek (cake) is probably of European origin. --Chinawhitecotton 18:26, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

This seems to be a common problem with meals. For example, Austrian strudel and Serbian štrudla obviously have the same name, but if I have deciphered the article well, they are completely different. Same goes for moussaka/musaka and of course raki/rakija. Nikola 09:12, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Merge under burek so we don't need an argument about squiggles over an o. Clearly several different spellings are in use; use them in the article, there are redirects from them or disambiguation pages including the link. Gene Nygaard 18:13, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

I think I agree - actually, in my mind, burek sounds more like börek than borek does.--Chinawhitecotton 18:26, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

So, if I got it right, everybody's OK with merging to Burek? --Dijxtra 22:32, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Actually, I'm not (on logical grounds, as it should be under likely origin) but not too strongly (on emotional grounds :-) ).Duja 21:08, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

OK, the notes below supporting the turkish origin make me change my mind. :) Why are there no Turks here defending their spelling? Isn't there a standard for naming things like this in Wikipedia? Fortunately I am not too attached to this issue, so as long as the two articles are merged and info is included on b*reks from different regions, we can call it burek, although it seems somewhat arbitrary. --Chinawhitecotton 22:29, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Regarding what borek actually means in Turkish, I took a look at three on-line dictionaries.

• [6]: borek : (pastry or pie)
• [7]: 1. patty. 2. pie. 3. flaky pastry containing thin layers of cheese / minced meat. flan.
• [8]: börek : pie

So I tried searching for b*rek cheese or b*rek meat and I get more hits for burek, however if I search for b*rek pie I get more hits for borek. I'm more convinced that the article should be under burek, it seems that borek in Turkish means simply "pie" (perhaps "tart" is only applied to western-style pies). Nikola 08:59, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Albanian vegetable pies or "Byrek Shqipëtar me perime" seems to be the same thing. I propose be include it in the merge. --Dijxtra 23:19, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Albanian vegetable pie does not seem to be the same thing, because it is made by a laying several phyllos, then a thick layer of spinach, then several more phyllos. See wikibooks:Cookbook:Albanian vegetable pie. Nikola 10:02, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Isn't that one way to make a burek? I've seen two types of burek beeing sold in Zagreb: rolled burek and the one you just described... --Dijxtra 10:21, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Burek typically has a few layers of phyllo and filling. Though, you're right, I've looked in a recipe, and it could be made with one layer of filling only. Nikola 08:59, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

There. I merged it, I hope everybody's happy with how I did it. --Dijxtra 12:40, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Finally a Turk here as well. I guess there aren't many in wikipedia *sigh*. I didn't know borek was that popular is ex-Yugoslavian countries too. It is very very popular in Turkey I can say. There are many types of it, but basically it is always something filled into laters of pastry. It is so popular every house always has the pstry in the fridge ready for any occasion :) And it is totally different than pie - we got pies too but they are pies, very different. As for the spelling this is how it is spelled and pronounced like now by almost all people - still I'm sure in some corners of the country there would be slightly different pronunciations. Hope this answers some of your questions here - so it's not like the US pizza and the Italian pizza. For more info just do a Google image search for borek. Cheers... 30 Jan 2006

Of persian origin of Burek

Hm, my Persian teacher says she didn't see burek in Iran... and that she thinks burek isn't of Persian origin. Nikola, can you tell me which dictionary is in question? --Dijxtra 19:17, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

I asked on sci.lang and and the answer was that it was Turkic. (Well, Yusuf Gursey is a Turk but a man whom I generally trust). He states that the word is probably of Turkic origin (not necessarily Turkish) and that it was borrowed in Russian through that path too; he also mentions two related old Turkic verbs. Here's a similar reference [9]. Duja 21:06, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Abdulah Skaljic: Turcizmi u srpskohrvatskom-hrvatskosrpskom jeziku, Sarajevo, 1985.

burek m (pers.) < tur. börek "pie in general" < pers. būrek.

Aham! I'll supply that info to my teacher and insist she asks someone who knows ;-) We have clases in Iranian cultural center, we'll somebody there should know. If not, they would be the first non-selfish nation I've seen, nations usually brag about a word having roots in their language... --Dijxtra 10:24, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Alternatively, simply ask what būrek means. Or, a novel idea, try to look it up in a Persian dictionary. Nikola 08:47, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Ummmm... darn, my lack of ability to see obvious things sometimes amazes me. Il look up in the dictionary on Monday. :-) In the mean time, I quoted Skaljic to her and she recognised the authority of the dictionary (after all, she is a Bosnian ;-) ) and promised to ask her boss (who is Persian).  :-) --Dijxtra 09:12, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

By the way:

baklava f (ar.) < tur. baklava < ar. bāqlawā (from Arabic bāqlā, minding shape of pieces it is cut into)

rakija f (ar.) < tur. raki i arak < ar. aräq, basic meaning: "sweat, liquid which becomes by steaming"

Nikola 09:32, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Yet another Turkish source has a different opinion:

Russians and Poles ("pieragi" in Polish) borrowed the piroshki from the Kazan Turks. The origin of the word piroshki is borek. The Turks of Anatolia and Rumeli have hundreds of variations of this savory pastry. Depending on the dialect the word is pronounced borek, burek, bura, etc. For example my grandmother loved making "su burasi" for us. The root for borek is "bur-" (twist).

What am I here, a Turks' wooden advocate? I'd better shut up. Duja 10:21, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

This actually doesn't counter it. It's perfectly possible that the word entered Turkish from Persian, then Russian from Turkish. Nikola 08:47, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Duja, have you investigated this? Nikola 12:52, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Me? I told my findings already. It was Dijxtra who promised to take a look in Persian dictionary. Duja 13:11, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

We have no classes at the moment. When our classes start again (that would be 2nd week of January), I'll get to work: inspect available dictionaries and hopefully get some return info from my teacher. --Dijxtra 13:22, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Any progress? Nikola 05:43, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes. And no. Yes - I surveyed Persian dictionaries I found in the cultural centre. No - no mention of būrek there :-( Therefore, we have only one source - Skaljic's dictionary. If you wish, you can put a sentence noting the speculation burek might be of persian origin and quoting your source... I'm afraid I cannot provide any more reliable source :-( --Dijxtra 10:17, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

why reverting 62.203.4.84's edits

Burek is very popular in Serbia and Macedonia (and in Croatia, for that matter), but I think it is far more popular in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Therefore I think the sentence should state that "very popular in many countries in the Balkan region (especially in Bosnia and Herzegovina)". Disclamer: I'm not from Bosnia, so this is not my local partiotism :-) --Dijxtra 11:15, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Banitsa

The description of burek is essentially the same as Bulgarian 'banitsa'. Since I have been living in Bulgaria, banitsa is very popular - I have eaten it made with sirene (feta cheeses), and with spinach added, or with nettles added - all called banitsa. My mother-in-law makes a sweet version with apples and cinnamon - but she calls it 'strudle', not banitsa. In conclusion, this should probably be merged, or linked, with the banitsa page. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 212.116.139.141 (talk • contribs) .

Yes, it seems there is a connection, but I don't think it is the same thing. So, I'll just put a link. --Dijxtra 20:35, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Banitsa looks and sounds suspiciously like gibanica. Nikola 14:10, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Origin of burek

It'sa common misconception that burek originates from turkey or Bosnia. The turks wrote all financial matter in "tefter" those were used as a log book for a town. One of those tefters clearly states that burek was patented in the city of Nis in 1498. There was a celebration in Nis a couple of years ago and it was named:"5 centuries of burek". So please change that info on the main page. —This unsigned comment was added by User:Stefanlukic (talk • contribs) 01:00, 27 March 2006.

Can you provide any sources for that claim? --Dijxtra 10:03, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

If you want you can come to Nis. I'll take you to every burekdzinica in town and there are more than 100 burekdznicas here. I'm not authorised to take any papers out of the historical archive of Nis, or to make any copies of those papers. But here goes the rough story:

In 1498 a renowned baker from the city of Istanbul came to Nis and opened a bakery. That baker's name was Mehmed Ogluh and in that same year he and a couple of his aprentices made the first burek. In 1998 a manifestation called "Five centuries of Burek(Pet veka bureka)" was held in Nis. And since than yearly manifestations are held on the bank of the river Nisava, the name of that manifestation is"The days of burek(Dani Bureka)". The original turkish burek is very different from the one we now eat in Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia... So we cant really claim that the Burek was invented in Istanbul.

This historical data was obtained thanks to:

Prof Neda Markovic

Prof dr Radomir Djordjevic

—This unsigned comment was added by Stefanlukic (talk • contribs) 01:46, 28 March 2006.

Well, that's nice, but the problem is: we are not alowed to trust you. One of principles of Wikipedia is verifiability. This means that: "Facts, viewpoints, theories, and arguments may only be included in articles if they have already been published by reliable and reputable sources." And the only source that I found that mentions Mehmed Ogluh is this. Only one web page. Now, I'd be really happy if you could provide us with some more sources, because only one source on the whole of the Internet is not much...

BTW, please, sign you posts. You can do that by putting "~~~~" at the end of what you write. --Dijxtra 07:54, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Traditional breakfast?

Would you guys say that rekbu is a traditional breakfast? Many (ok, two) people in US asked me what's traditional breakfast in Serbia, and I only came up with burek. Is that true or is it just a reason for my poor health? --dcabrilo 07:27, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Rekbu is burek in slang, like vutra 'trava'< (daj) travu, Dzoni< NIdzo (vocative of Nidza), tebra< brate ans so on

According to Serbian cuisine, Serbs traditionally did not have breakfast. Nikola 09:13, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Origin of Borek from Objective sources

Filo is the Greek name for a dough of many paper-thin layers separated by films of butter...Although known to Europeans and North Americans by a Greek name, the dough is clearly of Turkish origin. The medieval nomad Turks had an obsessive interest in making layered bread, possibly in emulation of the thick oven breads of city people. As early as the 11th century, a dictionary of Turkish dialects (Diwan Lughat al-Turk) recorded pleated/folded bread as one meaning of the word yuvgha, which is related to the word (yufka) which means a single sheet of file in modern Turkish. This love of layering continues among the Turks of Central Asia...The idea of making the sheets paper thins is a later development.

---Oxford Companion to Food, Alan Davidson [Oxford University Press:Oxford] 1999 (p. 299)

This is the pastry Borek is made from.

One source does not make it objective. Perry is the only thing you have to go on which is what Oxford Companion uses. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.7.123.116 (talk) 17:22, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Russians and Poles ("pieragi" in Polish) borrowed the piroshki from the Kazan Turks. The origin of the word piroshki is borek. The Turks of Anatolia and Rumeli have hundreds of variations of this savory pastry. Depending on the dialect the word is pronounced borek, burek, bura, etc. For example my grandmother loved making "su burasi" for us. The root for borek is "bur-" (twist).

The etymology of the word is Turkic, bur and ek are Turkic root words, bur = twist, ek = to add, every time the pastry is twisted, more is added layer on layer.

There are hundreds of variations of this dish across Central Asia to Turkey, its a common dish to Turkic communities.

JohnStevens5

No there are not hundreds of variants from Central Asia, most of the variants are from Anatolia, which is where Borek originated, not Central Asia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.7.123.116 (talk) 17:24, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Albanian byrek

I am sorry if you guys already discussed this before (I can't be bothered to read the entire page, but skimming revealed no discussion), but should Albanian byrek be included in this page? Especially the link to the recipe.

The reason I ask about this is that it seems to me byrek is just a pie, or at least it's a likely possibility; there is a clear difference between regular pies and burek. E.g. "sirnica" is not a burek, nor is "pita s mesom" a burek, since both are made with philo dough.

Sve su pite pitice, samo je burek pitac. (All pies are just pies, but burek is the pie)

So, is it the same thing? Of course, Albanian bakers traditionally make the best burek that I've ever tried, but our semantics might be screwed up :) --dcabrilo 08:05, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure I follow you -- Byrek redirects to here. As far as I know, in most of the world except for Bosnia, b*rek denotes any type of phylo pie; in Bosnia, it is reserved only for meat variant. We opted for the "ubiquitous" nomenclature in the article, with note on usage in Bosnia. Not sure why you refer to Albanian bakers (I presume the ones you met used the same nomenclature as in Bosnia), but maybe it's because they were from Bosnia? As for Byrek as made in Albania (and perhaps Kosovo), it should be described, but we need an Albanian editor for that. Duja 09:30, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Ok, let me try again. Not all pies are burek :) E.g. gibanica is made with phylo dough, but it's unanimous that it's not a burek. So, I'm saying that perhaps Albanians use word "byrek" for any kind of pie, including things that are not burek. E.g. the article links to: [10], which doesn't seem to be a recipe for burek at all. --dcabrilo 23:11, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Unanimity is in the eye of beholder :-). While you and I will certainly agree that gibanica is not a burek, a Turk or Albanian will likely say "what a nice b*rek it was" :-). The point is really moot. There are also articles Banitsa, Gibanica, and Tyropita, which describe similar meals accross Balkans. It's difficult to get right...

A rewrite

Seems like this article got a rewrite by User:Luzzifer. Which is fine. What's not fine is that in the process we lost some valuable data, and we recieved some historical data which is not referenced. And some bad English and some wierd formating. I tried to fix the article, but my English is not so great after all, and I'm doing this in quite a hurry, so someone please go and see if I missed something. The article still needs a lot of copyediting, but I've got to run now...

And, regarding the Niš legend. Is there any way to obtain the article which is used to support the idea that burek was invented in Niš? I mean, I recieved that info in a form of legend, not fact... --Dijxtra 17:26, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Burek is not invented in Nis. It's a Turkish dish. One of it's modalities was made in Nis in 1498. Nis was importent city during the Otomman empire. However, the recipie was adjusted, developed, and after all preserved in Nis. One of main caracteristics of trditional burek is pork fat (which is today supstituted by vegitable fat, oil) and it was certanly not used by Turks, as theye are Muslims. Later burek was spread by Serbian, Macedonian and Albanian bakers that all came from theritory which was part of Serbia till 1916, and Nis was administrativ center.

Luzzifer --82.117.194.34 18:41, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

As far as I know, SQEEZED and then enveloped recepie does'nt exist among the Turks. It's actually also posibly that Mehmed Oglu found it out.

--82.117.194.34 18:44, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

You do know that Mehmed Oglu is a Turk —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.143.0.143 (talk) 01:39, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

ETYMOLOGY of Turkish börek

I really think that we should leave Skaljic's etymology out. Persian word is borrowed from Turkish not viceversa. Skaljic's etymologies are really often wrong, just cf. the Etimoloski recnik srpskoga jezika. He is not an exepert on Turkish etymology, he is expert in Serbocroatian etzymology. Etymologies that he made on his own are often really paraetimologies.

I also think that it's completly unneccesary to quot some article, when all relevant sources are listed in Tietze.

--Luzzifer 21:40, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Skaljic is presenting a theory that the word may be from Perisan. The article says "may be", not "is". I think it is a valuable piece of information, if we keep in mind the "may be" part. I don't see why removing it if it is not balantly wrong (you haven't submitted any sources which says "there's no way burek comes from persian"). If you still request that valid source be removed, I will put the thing on vote. So, what is it going to be? --Dijxtra 08:04, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Stachowski wrote a book on ALL Persian elements in Turkish, and he does'nt mention burek. Tietze says, that it's accepted that PErsian wrd commes from Turkish. --Luzzifer 11:06, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Can you cite that tietze reference? --Dijxtra 15:26, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Does it matter? Tietze claims that Burek entered Persian from Turkish while Skaljic claims otherwise. I'm in favor of weakening Skaljic's claim if there is an opponent of it (Burek comes from Turkish or possibly from Persian or something like that) but not removing it outright. Nikola 20:10, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it does matter. If he doesn't have the source, we will just return the Skaljic reference. If he has the soruce, we add that "Burek comes from Turkish or possibly from Persian, but the former is disputed", and reference both claims :-) I trying not to enter an edit war over a piece of burek, that would be most hilarious reason to engage in edit warring ;-) But, sooner or later, we will return that information back since it is legitimatly sourced. --Dijxtra 09:40, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Since Luzzifer is not responding, I'm returning the reference. --Dijxtra 14:39, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi Dijxtra. What am I expected to add? Tietze, Türkisches etymologisches Wörterbuch, Band I, Istanbul/Wien is already listed, or not?

Eventualy, I agry to let Skaljic in main text, although he is wrong.

Luzzifer --82.117.194.34 00:44, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Burek does not have a Persian etymology, check any Persian dictionary, Burek has a Turkic etymology. The sentance in the article is ridiculous, how can it have a Turkish etymology and also be of Persian etymology, it makes no sense.

Torke —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.143.0.143 (talk) 01:35, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Adding every possible pastry meal into this article

Can we reduce the number of meals mentioned in this article only to those which have some resemblance of burek? Brik really doesn't sound burek-like to me... --Dijxtra 20:37, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, the problem is that there is no definitive definition of burek. In Greece alone, boureki can refer both to the kind made with filo and the kind made with pastry dough. The North African version uses a different procedure for the pastry, true, but like the other versions, keeps the Ottoman name (short vowels in North African Arabic are often dropped). --Macrakis 21:04, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

börek/burek spelling

Shouldn't the article title match the spelling inside the article? Part of the article seems to be merged from Börek. The article states that it originates from the Ottoman dish, from which it seems logical to use the Turkish börek as the main spelling (i.e., move article title to börek), but at least the spelling should be consistent. (I mean that the intro section should use the same spelling as the article title) Han-Kwang (t) 11:57, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes indeed I am moving the article to Börek as per all the discussion above. As a further reference, I may point to the Armenian Etymologist Sevan Nişanyan who indicates here http://www.nisanyansozluk.com/search.asp?w=B%F6rek&x=0&y=0 that it is of Turkic origin, BUT adopted by the Persians too.

PS: I long for the day when Americans and Italians will write "Pizza" differently, so they also fight on the article ownership... --Emir Ali Enç (talk) 00:42, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

I moved the page back. The entire above discussion shows nicely that the page should not be called börek because in Turkish it is the name for a variety of pies, while this article is only about one of them. The inside of the article uses the spelling "burek" as well. Nikola (talk) 18:37, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Not at all, the only one in the discussion frantically arguing that it is not Turkish but something else is you.... Turks are not much English speakers so there is not a lot of them over here to defend the case, but please do know that they would feel insulted by what you did. Serbia is a great country with a more than great cuisine, but I heard too many times geographic and cultural irredentist claims from Serbians claiming that words like "Sarma" or "Dolma" or "Paramparça" "Çarşija" etc. are actually Serbian words that the Turks "stole"... Pfff... Come on... Was there any Burek in Serbia before the Ottomans? If you can argumentate about that, I'd give you the credit.

Oh, and here, search results for you, since you seem to like them:

-http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=safari&rls=tr-tr&q=Börek&btnG=Ara&lr=&aq=f&oq=

-http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&client=safari&rls=tr-tr&q=Burek&aq=f&oq=&aqi=

(look at the cute little number at the right hand side)

--Emir Ali Enç (talk) 13:05, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Here! I edited the whole thing out to give place to everything and referenced as necessary. Nikola, you are more than wellcome to add references concerning the culture of Burek in Serbia and the SFRY countries. Actually, it would be really valuable if you could provide us with info on the Burek culture of the SFRY days, before dismantlement. Thank you in advance!

(Now I got to work on the Cağ kebab article for a bit).

--Emir Ali Enç (talk) 14:15, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

PS: I love your version of the Börek, especially the "Ziljanica" if I remember well that I ate in Beograd! MMmm..

Info about Abdullah Skaljic's "Turkicisms"

I really wonder where does he source his etymological claims, since:

• There is no root "bur" in Persian, but in any Turkic language, YES. Words in use in modern Turkish like "burgu" (twist), "burma" (participate of "bur" meaning twisted), "burmak" (infinitive, to twist) "burmalı" (with a twist) "buruk" (twisted, for an abstract sense) all emanate from that particular Turkic root. Any other linguist and etymologist will credit you with that, and most of those references and links contradicting him are present on that very talk page. Hence, to my opinion, sourcing Skaljic is very unreliable for Turkic languages. Thus I chose to remove it.

• Baklava has nothing to do with "بقلة/baqla", the word for "bean" in Arabic, as Skaljic suggests it, it mostly emanates from "bağlava", the Mongolian word for a "stack". One can consult the article Baklava for further reference as there are thousands of sources for that. Layered leaflike dough, a common feature of Baklava and Börek, were in use in Central Asia way before the Balkans.

• Rakı and Rakija on the other hand are probably come from "عرق/'araq" in arabic, that used to mean any kind of distilled spirit, but this is not really a secret.

• Yugoslavs who'll research a little will see that their versions of the börek were introduced by some "Mehmed Oğlu" from the Ottoman Capital. Various Serbian sources also credit that... Now did he come all the way from the Sublime Porte to invent it in Niş? Or, since he was baker, did he carry something already eaten in Constantinople to the Serbian Sancak?...

• Was it the Serbians who introduced the Börek to Algeria, Tunisia, Armenia and Israel? Why is it not known in Iran? (Even in Iranian Azerbaijan)

I think these are the questions to be answered before continuing on the name debate.

--81.213.220.76 (talk) 16:12, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was page moved. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 19:54, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

---

Burek → Börek — - [As per the above discussion.] --Emir Ali Enç (talk) 00:48, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

• Support Makes sense to me, but then I will eat them under whatever name! Geoff ^{Say something!} 10:33, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

HAHA!! So will I! :D —Preceding unsigned comment added by Emir Ali Enç (talk • contribs) 23:10, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Claim that Börek is not invented in Central Asia by Turks

This is Turkish Propaganda and nothing more.

In my opinion The Turkish propaganda machine should have no place on a public American site like Wikipedia.com. Glancing through pages of "Turkish Food" everything seems to magically originate in "Central Asia" presumably Mongolia and the Altai Mountains where Turks originated.

That being the case, putting aside references for a moment, why is it that most of the Central Asians and their cuisines do not have the majority of these "Turkish Foods" if in fact these foods "originated" in Central Asia, but yet strangely enough they are prominent parts of Armenian, Greek, Arab, and Assyrian cuisines? Most, if not all "Turkish Food" is not from Central Asia. These foods are Anatolian foods which originated for the most part from Armenians and Anatolian Greeks and perhaps chefs of other ethnicities which worked in the Ottoman Empire. I remember they constantly try this argument with the origin of Kebob with fantasy stories of how "Turks brought the art of Kebap from Central Asia, they stored the meat under their saddles then cooked it on their swords after a battle" blah blah blah.

The Turkish Author Ayla Algar which is also referenced here as supposedly claiming Börek is of Central Asian origin in the book 'The Complete Book of Turkish Cooking' does not conform to what the Oxford Companion to Food states which also references the same author. I do not have access to the referenced book 'The Complete Book of Turkish Cooking' but the Oxford Companion states that Börek is "a distinctive family of Near Eastern pastries..." and later "Börek remains central to the popular cuisine of Anatolia..." as the origin based on a hypothesis that, in Anatolia the most diversity exists in Börek variants which is analogous to plant variation theories.

You can read that here:

http://books.google.com/books?id=JTr-ouCbL2AC&pg=PA91&lpg=PA91&dq=oxford+companion+to+food+B%C3%B6rek&source=bl&ots=1005q96bDd&sig=V5tsieTeiCT_QRtJqn9loA25l_w&hl=en&ei=d-S0TMehDY3GsAO0sYTHCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBIQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

Now the question is: What is meant by Anatolian? Answer 1: NOT CENTRAL ASIAN ie "Nomadic Turk". Answer 2: Specifically Armenian or Greek or Assyrian.

This shows how the reference cited is being taken out of context and twisted around. Börek is an Anatolian pastry which spread from there, not the other way around, much like all other foods being claimed as "Turkish food invented by Turks in Central Asia".

And in regards to the Charles Perry article which apparently is the only piece of "evidence" Turks have to promote their propaganda, it supposedly shows a "missing link" between Central Asian Turks and Anatolia which is Baklava. Firstly, this article is about Baklava, not Börek, and despite being published in a book, there is no solid evidence and does not seem to be based on established facts. In fact Charles Perry recently concluded in a lecture at Pacifica Institute's Luncheon Forum: "The Topkapi [Istanbul] chefs came from all over the Ottoman territories but they created the baklava in Istanbul for the sultans of the Ottoman Empire."

In my view the idea that Börek comes from Central Asia must be abandoned and the Charles Perry article does not belong here as it is more about Baklava, and the the above evidence shows that Ayla Algar gives credit of Börek to Anatolia, not Central Asian Turks. 99.7.123.116 (talk) 18:02, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Your source says "originally börek were cooked on the saj, the flat sheet of iron used by the nomadic Turks." The Seljuk Turks moved into Anatolia something like 900 years ago, so I don't quite see how Ayla Algar's theory is in serious conflict with Charles Perry's claim about "nomadic Turks". Beastiepaws (talk) 23:00, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

That's right look for the mouse and ignore the elephant, that is so "brilliant". That statement about the Saj is written by Oxford citing various sources mainly Turkish. My source is within that article citing Algar which is being twisted around in this article to "prove" Borek is Central Asian.

Second point: If you knew anything about Börek at all you would know that statement is also incorrect. Firstly, a Saj is a Middle Eastern utensil, not Turkic Central Asian. Second, when you place cheese in bread and put it on a Saj that is called a grilled cheese sandwich, not Börek. This has been practiced in the Near East since time immemorial.

Third point: assuming that the false statement "originally börek were cooked on the saj, the flat sheet of iron used by the nomadic Turks" is correct: What will you do about the other bigger part which refutes this claim within the same article and gives a clearer explanation as to how Börek is indigenous to Anatolia??

Third point: I want input from a neutral non-Turkish party who is interested in facts, not fantasy. 99.7.123.116 (talk) 18:00, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

First point. So, go and read Ayla Algar's research, and use it to add to the article with appropriate citations. Or add something to the article about there being more than one theory and cite Oxford. It will be a nice change from your nonsensical claims about "Turkish propaganda".

Second, the saj is also used in Central Asia. If you want to cite Oxford, you might have to allow what they say to be true. (Besides that, you can look it up pretty easily.) I'm not "doing" anything about the Anatolia claim. It could be true. I'm just asking you to find supporting information and add it to the article rather than just deleting whatever bits you don't like. and maybe you should read Perry's article before dismissing it. A cheese sandwich indeed.

Third point. Your racism is showing, and you can keep your personal attacks to yourself. Beastiepaws (talk) 19:34, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

It is you who is the racist for advocating false information. Turkish Propaganda is alive and well, don't kid yourself. When I read majority of anything written by Turks of Turkey regarding history with deceit and misinformation my concerns are justified, that is not called racism. The Turkish government makes a conscious effort to make sure that only the Turkish version of history gets accepted, which is more often than not in opposition to the real history as known by Greeks, Assyrians, Armenians, Kurds, and the west in general. This is no secret and we do not need to go further.

The Saj may be used in Central Asia, but so are cell phones and automobiles, that does not mean those "originated in Central Asia".

And when you say Anatolian origin "could be true" admittedly that's the first sign of honesty I have seen from you in this conversation. Since you seemed all too eager to cast the Central Asian origin into stone, that is the reason I asked you about the Anatolian origin which seems to have a better explanation. I will give it some thought to write this later, but I expect your support since so far you have shown that you do not accept it. And when I get a chance I will read the Perry and the Algar article and I urge you to do the same. 99.7.123.116 (talk) 00:56, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

I have no interest in the Turkish government. It has exactly zero to do with me, Charles Perry, or the editing of this article. I'm dropping out of this discussion until you produce some actual information. Beastiepaws (talk) 01:46, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Guys, first of all, calm down. Food should be eaten, not fought over. The two pennies I can add here are simple:

• "Saj / Sac" means, in the proper sense "sheetmetal" in Turkish and most other Central Asian Turkic Languages. Here: http://tdkterim.gov.tr/seslisozluk/?kategori=yazimay&kelimesec=056858 And also from an Armenian source: http://www.nisanyansozluk.com/?k=sac who traces it back to Kaşgar for the use. I guess it was introduced in the Ottoman Syria by the nomadic Turks settling there at the time.
• The sac is a very practical instrument for a nomadic way of life: it is small and mobile, if put on a fire, it lets you fry whatever you want on one side, then if you turn it, it becomes a convex heated plate, letting you heat pastry, like yufka or börek. This multiple usage is not at all known in Syria or Iraq, from what I saw there, since they were only using it on the convex side.
• Also note that most nomad cultures do not know anything about yeast or leavening, thus use stacks of thin unleavened dough to make their pastries filling. Thus one can trace the origins of baklava, börek and even mantı to central asia.

Now for my angry Armenian friend above, I can tell you that Armenians TOO have a great cuisine, and make excellent chefs, (maybe the best ever) but due to the fact that they have lived separated in 3 different empires (Ottoman - Iranian - Russian) for most of the last 10 centuries, they tend to have big disparities in their cuisine, even inside of Turkey. For example, the cuisine of Istanbul Armenians is VERY different from the Cuisine of Antep Armenians, (or Aleppo Armenians) and although most of the dishes they cook is parallel to the cuisine of Istanbul - Antep - or Aleppo, they have ethno-endemic dishes in EACH community that is both unknown to the Turkish or Aleppan crowd, AND to the other Armenian communities outside of theirs. Some examples could be the highly praised Bolsohay dish "Topik", a sweet meze with Chickpeas, onion and a lot of cinnamon, totally unknown outside of the Istanbul Armenian community. Another example of an Armenian dish is the "toşka - toshka" that is an Aleppine Armenian specialty that my non Aleppine Armenian friends NEVER heard of. The Nohut Dürüm in Antep is an exception, and is eaten by the mainstream Turkish Antebi crowd, that are being perfectly aware that the recipe is indeed Armenian. As a final note, I really think we need to do an objective research about WHAT was eaten by the Armenians during the Bagratids or the Cilicians time. There we would have a real answer to all your claims, concerning the contemporary Anatolian cuisine.

Cheers! --78.170.194.120 (talk) 14:06, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Dear fellow editors, let's please keep it civil, focus on finding reliable sources, and not make leaps of reasoning. Unfortunately, cookbooks are in general not very good sources for culinary history, but Algar seems better than most. The Oxford Companion agrees with her analysis that börek is probably of Anatolian origin during the Ottoman period -- and the first attestations of the word börek are in 14th-century Turkish. This is not incompatible with Perry's claim that baklava and phyllo/yufka are of Central Asian origin. (He says nothing specifically about börek in that article.)

Please note that saying that it is of "Ottoman" origin does not say that it is of "Turkish" origin -- the Ottoman Empire was multiethnic, and for all we know börek could have been invented by an Armenian, a Georgian, a Greek, etc. --Macrakis (talk) 15:35, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Hello Doc Makraki, how are you doing?

To start, I always enjoy reading your unbiased and balanced writings, and DREAM of a day when all the offsprings of the Eastern Romans, Byzantines and Ottomans will be able to reason like you do. I know I am a romantic... LOL... Now, for a discussion, I'd like to ask you the following:

• I agree at a 100% that the terms "Ottoman" and "Turkish" do not and should not overlap, as the Ottoman Empire was one of the craziest mixtures of ethnicities cultures and cuisines, and like you said, a Levantine Jew of Izmir or an Armenian baker of Yozgat could have invented the börek, if it is really "Ottoman".

Indeed, it was very popular during the empire, but why do I not feel like it is "Ottoman" but more of the "Preottoman Steppoturkic" kind of thing is that it is still consumed by a heap of Central Asian peoples under more or less the same name, and even (according to my theory) was "exported" by the Northern Turkic tribes to the neighbouring Slavic and Germanic tribes in the Volga - Ural area. "Piroshki" and "Bierock" might be the very offsprings of that. If I am not mistaking, even the Karaim people of the Baltic do something that looks like the Börek and call it something similar. Were all these cultures (Northern Slavs, Balts, Poles, etc.) "culinarly influenced" by the Ottomans, or were they more from another Turkic tribe like the Tatars or the Khazars?

Unfortunately, as logical as they sound, the number of sources for these claims is very feeble, not to say nil, but I am still looking for it. What do you personally think about it, where would you guide me for sources?

Now, as you sure understood me, I am not saying that the Central Turkic culture is the core of all etc. We even joke nowadays in Turkey that "the Turkish horsemen brought the Yoğurt, the Yufka and the Kilim, and that's pretty it!"...

Finally, referencing to what is written above, have you ever tried the Armenian Cuisine of Istanbul??

Respectfully,

--Emir Ali Enç (talk) 17:50, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments! Börek may well be central Asian, but I haven't been able to find any sources for that. It doesn't seem like a big leap from making layered breads on a sac to folding them over a filling; on the other hand, modern börek are baked in an oven (not a nomad's tool!), not cooked on a sac (or maybe some are cooked on a sac?). Yes, the etymology of piroshki and bierock is from börek, but when and where were they borrowed? Was it in fact in the Volga-Ural area? Or in the Black Sea area? (Recall that northern Slavic and Germanic peoples have been travelling to Constantinople/Istanbul for a long time -- cf. the Varangian Guard).

As for good sources, there aren't many that I've found, and what I've found, I've included in the references in the baklava article. The Oxford Companion to Food is not terribly helpful for this. Maybe you can find something relevant in Google Books?

I will be in Istanbul in March, and would love to have your recommendations for restaurants etc., Armenian or otherwise. I remember fondly the Garaj Lokantasi in Tarabya -- but this was 30+ years ago, when it really was still in a garage, no fancy terraces.

I look forward to your contributions to the article ... and to your restaurant recommendations (better by email to keep the Talk page clean...). --Macrakis (talk) 20:45, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

One would expect political bias to be kept out of an "encyclopedia"

The crap - excuse my French - about "widespread nationalistic prejudices of Slovenes" is outright SLANDER and has no place in such an article. The editors should be ashamed for having kept such idiocies in the article, especially since there are absolutely no references offered to substantiate this bold (to put it nicely) assertion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.143.35.135 (talk) 22:09, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Actually, the claim *is* referenced. I re-edited that bit as best I could to reflect that this is the opinion of the researcher concerned. Beastiepaws (talk) 03:09, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

Israel represents Palestinians?

I am sorry for this topic (i know many might hate its title). But I could find any verification in the article for your "Israeli famous Boerek". On the other hand, if you go to Jerusalem, you find major Palestinians selling this thing in their restaurants. I can not also verify, but it is famous and known by Israelis. At least Palestinians must be mentioned specially with the strong connection in restaurants and most of Palestinian cousins are used by Israeli factories to be created/distributed on a wider and commercial scale. Thank you,

Hello, As someone who lives in Israel and works in the food industry,the origin of the Bourekas is in Jews who came from the Balkan area, i.e. Greece,Turkey,Bulgaria. The Arabs who sell these kind of things sell it because they know the Israelis and Tourists who go there like it/will like it.It did not came from the so called "Palestinian cuisine". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.111.157.103 (talk) 10:40, 6 December 2011 (UTC)