Talk:Aztecs/Slavery

Two sentences without sense

This doesn't make sense: "Also could be declared a slave anyone who tried to prevent the escape of a slave, unless he were a familiar of the master." I'm assuing that "familiar" here is the Spanish word meaning "family member" but surely one was not punished for preventing the escape of a slave?

Neither does this: "If he step on human excrement outside the market, or if he asked protection in the royal palace or a temple." It's not even a sentence, it's an if-clause without a then-clause, and I, for one, can't guess the then-clause.

-- Jmabel 23:36, 29 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Sorry, i mean to write "relative"... , and yes.. you could be declare slave if you tried to prevent a slave to be free...

"Also , as strange as it sounds, people could be declared a slave if they tried to "prevent" the escaping of a slave, unless he were a relative of the master." Nanahuatzin 02:41, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC)

" Also a slave could be declared free, If he step on human excrement outside the main market, or if he asked protection in the royal palace or a temple. This last one was for the slaves that use the wood collar that marked bad slaves" (presumably Nanahuatzin)

I'm still not sure I get this thing about stepping on human excrement. By "outside the main market" do you mean to say "anywhere except the main market" or "immediately outside the main market"? And do you have any idea how such an odd law would have arisen? And I'm not sure what you mean here by "this last one." Meanwhile, I will clarify in the article the thing about preventing a slave from escaping. -- Jmabel 05:56, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Well, Sahagun is not very clear on this, now you understand why he was not shure if this could be called slavery? :). . Now. about this thing about the excrement, i tried to write it in short, but it seem i only confuse all the story..

"If a slave went to the market (Tianquiztli) with his master, he could run over the walls of the market. If near the wall, he could step on human excremente, he could go to the judges and asked to be freed. then the judges would cleand him/her, gave him new clothes (hile he used his master clothes, he was still slave) and then they went to his master, to inform his that the ssalve was free, thanks to his/her resources.". Also i forgot to mention that war captives were never sold as slaves.

Thanks for the corrections :)

Nanahuatzin 10:01, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I'm still finding that confusing in a couple of places. Nanahuatzin, can you give me the (presumably Spanish-language) original of that paragraph you are quoting? -- Jmabel 23:32, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I don,t have a copy of Sahagun at hand, but will copy from "MAnuel Orozco y Berra", LA civilizacion Azteca, 1860.

Recobrabase la libertad por uno de estos medios: si estando el esclavo en el mercado lograba burlar la vigilancia del amo, huia, pasaba las bardas del Tianquiztli y mas allá ponia el pie sobre excremento humano, se presentaba ante los jueces de aquella forma, y refiriendoles el caso, les pedia le librasen del cautiverio, supuesto asi estaba determinado por la ley: los magistrados le lavaban todo el cuerpo, ponianle ropas nuevas, le presentaban a su amo diciendole, que aquel se habia librado por su industria, y asi asistido por la ley habia cesado de ser esclavo. Al ver huir a su siervo, el señor daba grandes voces a la gente para que le detuviesen; mas cuanto mayores voces daba, tanto mas se precavian los espectadores de poner estorbo al que huia, porque la ley condenaba por esclavo a toda persona que impedia que un hombre recobrara su libertad.

Si el amo se enamora la esclava, o el ama del esclavo, y constaba, porque tenian hijos o de porque manera autentica seguiase su matrimonio, saliendo los agraciados de la condicion servil. Quedaba tambien libre, quien antes de la segunda venta, podia volver el precio por el que habia sido comprado. Estando con la collera al cuello (por incorregible), si podia meterse en el palacio o casa de los reyes, volvia a su antigua libertad; ninguno podia atajarles los pasos, pena de ser reducido a la servidumbre, fuera del amo o de sus hijos. Era costumbre entre los señores, a su muerte, dar por libres a los esclavos que habian hecho señalados servicios: los demas eran ciervos de sus herederos.

El señor no poda vender al siervo sin su consentimiento. Cesaba este privilegio si el esclavo sera perezoso, mal mirado, o huia de casa. entonces el amo lo amonestaba una, dos o te veces delante de testigos. Si aun permanecia incorregible, ponianle collera, distintivo de su mala condicion y entonces podia venderle a las personeas o en los mercados.

...

La collera era una pieza de madera, que ajustando al cuello, terminaba en dos argollas por la parte posterior por estas pasaba una vara larga, ligada a otra exterior de manera solida. LA collera no solo era simbolo de su mala conducta, sino tambien impedia huir entre la gente o pasar por lugares estrechos.

Los compradores de los esclavos de collera se informaban del numero de ventas que habia psado, y si despues de cuatro ventas aun no enmendaba, podian ser vendidos al sacrificio. (estos esclavos eran de mayor precio, pues no debian tener defecto fisico)

In general, slaves were better treated than the common people. They were under the care of their master, they lived in the main house, and were provided for all their needs. Probably this was the reason why some slaves wished to stay slaves... Nanahuatzin 20:23, 1 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

In the above, there is a reference to "las bardas del Tianquiztli". I know several meanings for "barda", ranging from a poet to a type of horse armor. None of them seem obvious to me here. Do you have any idea of the sense of this? -- Jmabel 23:39, 1 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

IN Mexico, barda means "wall"... :) ... By the way... I Mexico we have a saying "te brincaste la barda", when someone does something extraordinary. Maybe this is the origin... Nanahuatzin 02:22, 2 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

I was trying to summarize the story about slaves... but it seems that unless you go in full, it does not make sense....Nanahuatzin 02:24, 2 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

Quite. Thanks on "barda". My Spanish is mostly Iberian with a little Cuban and Rioplatano. I'm often thrown by specifically Mexican or Central American usages. A little inconvenient, because I now live on the West coast of the US, where of course that's what one mostly hears. -- Jmabel 04:07, 2 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

Nanahuatzin, you just now changed "marketplace of Tianquiztli" to "marketplace or Tianquiztli". The previous had the sense of saying that Tianquiztli is the name of the marketplace. The new version suggests that Tianquiztli is something other than the marketplace. If so, what is it? It's a Nahuatl word not used anywhere else in the article, so I have no idea? Or did you mean to write "marketplace, or Tianquiztli" which would have the same meaning as what it replaced? -- Jmabel 06:55, 17 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Jabel. Tianquiztli means marketplace, i did not ralized how important a comma is :) ... There were small marketplaces, and one very big marketplace so ussually Tianquiztli refers to the big one. But all were called the same. Even now we used the word "tianguis" for small itinerant markets.

Nanahuatzin 07:36, 17 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

Let's go for "Tianquiztli (marketplace)", which should be totally clear. I've edited. -- Jmabel 17:56, 17 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]