Talk:Awan (tribe)/Archive 2

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Why so many quotes?

This is an encyclopedia not a quote book. There are way too many quotes in this article which is irrelevant!

Lexi lover (talk) 19:23, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Re: Quotations

Lexi Lover, that is entirely your own view; each and every one of the quotes is entirely relevant, in that it directly relates to the subject matter in question (these quotes having also been sourced from respected works, the authors of these works including academics who are neutral in the sense that they have no interest in promoting the tribe that the article deals with) – this is the very reason why the facility to cite quotes, exists on this encyclopaedia. As to whether or not the article carries an excessive number of quotes, is an entirely subjective issue – I don’t happen to think it does (you may disagree), and each of the quotes used, is in support of statements made within the article. I trust your query has been answered satisfactorily. Rawalpindi Express (talk) 21:52, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Encyclopaedia of India, Pakistan and Bangladesh

It has been discovered that this book:

• Gupta, Om. Encyclopaedia of India, Pakistan and Bangladesh. Gyan Publishing House, 2006. ISBN 8182053897, 9788182053892.

Contains significant amounts of material plagiarized from Wikipedia articles. (Some other books from the same publisher also have this problem). There is no practical way of determining which material came from Wikipedia, and which came from other sources. Further, widespread plagiarism is an indication of poor scholarship. For those reasons, and according to Wikipedia policy, WP:CIRCULAR, I will deleting all citations to the book. However I will not delete the material that cites it, as there's no indication that the material is inaccurate. For more background, see WP:RSN#Circular references: Gyan Publishing and ISHA Books, or the archive after it goes there.   Will Beback  talk  22:29, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

List of cited content removed from this article

Intothefire (talk) 17:52, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Re: 'List of cited content removed from this article' and 'References'

Intothefire, to my knowledge (though I may be mistaken), the content you make reference to and claim was removed from the article, was never actually added to the article in the first place – how then was it removed? Moreover, not only is the material you cited, a contentious blanket statement (i.e. “'There can be no doubt that the Awan were originally Hindus...”), it is a statement that can be countered by other authors (some of whom have been quoted in the article). Furthermore, when you first cited the material in question, Raja underlined why the assertions made are so problematic; as it is, I have ensured that the views of those such as Cunnigham and Kaul - who speculated that the Awans are of Hindu origin - have been included in the article. However, the fact remains that whatever the origins of the Awan tribe may be, this is a community that has long been recognised, and widely acknowledged, as being exclusively Muslim, and for centuries has been defined by this fact (as it still is) - that is the reality of the matter, and indisputably so. Rawalpindi Express (talk) 23:34, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Hi Rawalpindi Express

"Moved my comments back to where they originally were, where I intended them to be, and where it makes sense for them to be"
I couldent help smiling at your Battle ready emphaticness "to hold your post"
to my mind content should come before the :references ....which is why I shifted your post above it ?
whats your reason for keeping your discussion below the reference ?
Are you OK with only the references below your comment , where I have now shifted it , while leaving the :List of cited content removed from this article' section above your comment .Intothefire (talk) 15:52, 14 February 2011 (UTC)Intothefire (talk) 16:03, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Hi Intothefire

The reason I want to keep my comments where they were originally placed, is simple: the remarks in question are a response to what you posted, and logic dictates they appear below said posting (hence the heading to my response starting with the prefix, “Re:”).

Regards

Rawalpindi Express (talk) 21:53, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

The person who claim awan is really awan or not

The main thing is "the person who claim awan is really awan or not". As a largest tribe of Pakistan Awan, Many Kamee kameen of after getting some money and repute claims themselves as AWANS. They are spoiling the image of Great Tribe by their activities. You can easily segregate Nasli People like Pure Afghan Pathans, Awans, Rajpoots, Gujars and other nominal cast by their genetic and their attitudes.They shows great resemblance to their ancestors. But case of Kamee Kameen is different in all atributes of their life they were those people who were remain dominant throughout history of mankind. by Asad Abbassi KSA — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.93.242.137 (talk) 06:15, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

Response to Zarrigul

Zarrigul, without meaning to sound rude, what you refer to as “facts” and “evidence” actually amounts to nothing more than your own personal opinions, largely based on conjecture. Moreover, what you have to say is highly debatable. Rawalpindi Express (talk) 17:04, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for being polite . the Historian who wrote the first paper regarding Awan's also made his opinion as each comes like this. let consider them as questions which we all need know. 1. logical reason for strange customs which cant be found in their neigbourhood for centuries.when they adopted those and from whom? 2. If we accept that all of the Ghouri Army was belonging to Ghour then what should be the population of Ghour when he planned to conquere India whether history support that?

3. Why Khan, Baz or Gul at the end of each Awan name? Try some old graveyard to check how much % of graves keep arabic or non arabic names.

4. When Awan's adopted khel system?? Does Arab's or Hashmi do have Khel system?

5. Why Awan. Ghakkhar and Khattar folk dances are common with Pashtuns and Baluch's. Why not common with other Punjabi Muslim tribes beyond Gujrat?

6. Awan use some tropical words which are never used by other Punjabi Muslims,like tabri for wife or Tabar for family, thla mas (cow meat) and names for prayer timings etc. what is the source of those words? as i do have found the same words used by Chinese muslims with Mongol origin? 7. Every race people or ethnic group in this modren day use DNA tracking as evidence. why it is taboo in Awan's case. DNA tracking can give end to all false theories. Zarrigul (talk) 21:00, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

Zarrigul, I’m sorry, but to say that your opinions are based on fact (as you claimed before re-editing your present response) is simply not true. What you are actually attempting to do, is pass off conjecture – based solely upon your own personal viewpoints and observations – as fact. It is for this reason that I and at least two other Wiki users, have had to remove the additions you have made. The edit you make reference to is not the opinion of one individual as you incorrectly claim, but a thoroughly referenced article that cites a number of respected authors and well-known works on the subject. On the other hand, you are unable produce any credible evidence to back up or substantiate your claims – please remember that Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia and not a forum for individuals to air their outlandish and fanciful theories.

I happen to be an Awan, both on my mother and father’s side of the family, so I hope you’re willing to accept I am fairly knowledgeable when it comes to the customs of my tribe. Quite frankly, I have never heard of, or seen, an Awan family (be it my relatives, or friends who also happen to be Awans) observe Hebrew marriage and funeral rites (these are what you originally referred to as “strange customs”, before re-editing your latest response) – nor have I ever come across a single anthropological study pointing out that the Awans (or even a section of the Awan tribe) practise such customs (as to how and why customs evolve, this is complex question, but what you’re alluding to, bears little, if any, relevance to this debate). Thus, your claims are bizarre.

Your second question is muddled, but once again, I fail to see of what relevance it is to this discussion.

Before you re-edited your current response, you also claimed that the majority of Awans only started to keep Arabic names, this century; this is patently untrue. Yes, my own name is Arabic, as was that of my father, and as are the names of my brother and sister (as well as those of my grandparents). My mother’s name is Persian in origin, but this simply reflects cultural realities that have been prevalent amongst the Muslims of the Subcontinent for centuries. And the majority of my relatives have Arabic names, as do those Awans my family and I count amongst our friends. However, my family tree is replete with Arabic names stretching back over the centuries (and the same almost certainly holds true for the majority of Awans), thus negating your claims. Furthermore, the Awans aren’t the only Punjabi Muslims who keep nicknames that bear a Hindu character (something else you touched upon before re-editing your response) - as I mentioned before, this reflects social and cultural realities; after all, the majority of Punjabi Muslims are descended from Hindu ancestors (and the article itself, presents a variety of opinions regarding the true origin of the Awan tribe – including the claim that the Awans are descended from Hindus - although for obvious reasons, emphasis is laid upon the theory that the bulk of the tribe subscribes to).

To say that all Awans tag on ‘Khan’, ‘Baz’ or ‘Gul’ at the end of their names, simply isn’t true – I don’t know of a single Awan using the ‘Baz’ or ‘Gul’ as a surname, and as it is, ‘Khan’ and ‘Gul’ are common surnames used by non-Awan Punjabi Muslims as well (in fact, the use of ‘Khan’ as a surname is prevalent amongst a number of tribes native to Potohar, including those of Rajput origin such as the Janjua). And I have visited the cemetery in Awan Town (Lahore) on a number of occasions – the overwhelming majority of those buried there, bore Arabic names (this ties in with the points I’ve already made).

Awans have a khel system, akin to those of the Pathans? I have never heard of any such thing, but even if this holds true for Awans residing in Khyber Pakthunkhwa (and I have yet to see proof of this), it certainly doesn’t hold true for the Awans of Punjab (and it is in this region that the vast majority of the Awan tribe is to be found) – here, the Awan clans are divided into gotras (a system replicated throughout the Punjab amongst other tribes as well, irrespective of religion). Perhaps the Awans, Gakhars and Khattars living in or near Khyber Pakhtunkhwa, dance in a fashion similar to that of the Pashtuns – in fact, I would expect them to, as over the course of time, we absorb the cultural practices of our neighbours and those we live amongst. However, as someone who belongs to an Awan family from beyond Gujrat district, let me assure you that it is the bhangra we perform at weddings (or any other occasion we have reason to celebrate) and not the Khattak dance (this also applies to the majority of Awans I know). In fact, in terms of identity and culture, we (and the majority of Awans my family knows) are as Punjabi as they come.

I am not a linguist, but I can tell you this much – my family uses exactly the same terms for ‘wife’, ‘family’, ‘beef’ etc., as the rest of the Punjabi Muslims we know and communicate with (both Awan and non-Awan). As for prayer times, both my family and said Punjabi Muslims, refer to them using the original Arabic terms (as do most individuals of Muslim origin). You’ve found certain terms being used by Chinese Muslims? That may be so, however, it is unreasonable for you to make unfounded generalisations about the Awan tribe, which don’t apply to me, nor the majority of Awans I know of.

Who said that to test the DNA of an Awan is taboo? In fact, I know of an Awan who had his DNA tested, so that he could determine his roots; it turned out that science tells him that he can trace his ancestry to the Middle East – would this hold true for all Awans if they underwent a similar procedure? I simply cannot answer that, but the example I’ve just mentioned, does suggest that one should keep an open mind as regards the traditional claim of the Awan tribe to Arab ancestry.

I trust you now understand why your assertions are problematic and contentious.

Regards

Rawalpindi Express (talk) 01:19, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

Salam .I know it is difficult to accept difference of opinion in our society. I am happy to see you are still polite . Yes I am attempting to do something which I am witnessing in my area (centre part of Awan tribal population I,e Jand, Pindi Gheb and Talagang Tehsils. I believe in a famous saying that “Pure language we learn from our uneducated mothers who used to live in remote and un-accessable areas” so for the culture evidence Awan Town lahore would not be a suitable place .contrary to that majority of lahori malaks consider themselves kakay zai malak (afghan) Please try to find a single source from history where Awan,s are mentioned as Punjabi before 18th century (before Raja Ranjeet Singh). I would appreciate if before replying this post you spare some time to check the information at wikipedia for Hindki (We pronouce as indki) and Hindko (The language of Awan’s. I will pronounce indko as usual). Yeah wikipedia encyclopedia (Awan’s page) contains the quotation’s and reference of British officers who were on Job and there source of information local revenue officers or the story tellers . The same way sir Olaf Caroe, in his book The Pathans tried to prove Pashtuns as Rajputs . . any new work will stay out of Wikipedia till it got published somewhere else even if that is not based on facts. So Wikipedia policy is not proving something true or false again it is up to the reader to make an opinion. If you are an Awan,, and living at middle of the districts where Awan’s are in Majority. I am willing to accept all the customs of your family being in pure form without any hesitation. How you can know a custom is Israellite /Budhist or Hindu till you are not familiar with customs of different religions? My question is still there ask some Awan friend who used to live at Tehsil Jand, Fateh Jang, Pindi Gheb, Talalgang or Chakwal. What they do during wedding? Whether they perform dances likr ghummer, ludi, sammi, barballa, and khaid ? whether they have custom of Gharroli? custom of breaking chorrni or waving groom on khat(charpai) ? if they have these customs . then you along with him can watch the video on youtube as “Chinese Jew wedding” to check for similarity. Many thing come to our knowledge through observation, if you are familiar with something and you see it at some strange place where you are not expecting it, that will make you to think. I am sure you would like the videos of ghumer/jhumer, Khaid, ludi, sammi and stick dance which are a lot on youtube. For your response for the names please check the list of nobles of 19th century of past of this page “Awan” how many have Islamic names. Yeah you are true there is same story with Gakhar, Khattar, Kiyani tribes as the source of information is Wikipedia. No one know about Kiyani Kings or Awan Kings. “Khattar Khels” owns 20% land of total land union council Chhab Jand Attock and they all speak Pashtu..British revenue record consider them Afghan tribe. I am not much familiar with Awan’s of KPK except few friends at Haripur. I am referring the names pattern of Awan’s at Attock. Sargodha, khushab and Chakwal. Bhangra mean “chorri “ in Pashto language. Khattak dance begins with Bhangra. As this was used to warmup body before war. Its bird eye view is circular (like chorri). Khattak dance is combination of 20 steps or different dances of the tribe including Bhangra, Balballa, Braghdaona,, charri dana and sword dance etc . Have you ever been to Kala Bagh? If you never been there please google it. It is on the westren Bank of Indus.river. Awan tribe area starts from eastren side of indus river. No doubt Awan are best warriors and best in Marshal races. Why their base station/ Headquater Kalabagh is surrounded by Khattak’s from three sides and the river on the east . it is quitely isolated from main Awan tribe population. Is it a mistake? I never can imagine that a leader of marshal race could built his fort at Place where he don’t feel safe. Marshal's never built their Headquarters on front line or among enemies. you give up marshal race theory or admit that Awan, khattak and Niazi were side by side from ghour to salt range. Shakar dara is at the north of Kalabagh and Karak is at the south of Kala Bagh which in Past was belonging to Awan tribe till khattak’ Niazi’s and Awan jointly got the salt range, thus Awan’s left Shakar Dara for Saghri’s and Karak to Barak’s and moved to East, Pindi Gheb, Chakwal etc. . Thanks for telling me about DNA tests. I think Bani Israelite also moved to different places in the world from Palestine which comes in Middle East.

I hope now you understand why my assertions are not problematic and contentious.

Regards — Zarrigul (talk) • contribs) 18:00, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

Salaam, Zarrigul, I hope you’re well.

My comments regarding Awan Town, were made in response to you asking me if I had visited a substantial number of Awan graves – I was not attempting to claim that Awan Town is a cultural hotbed of my tribe. However, contrary to what you say, though this locality may not have the long historical associations with the Awans that the Salt Range for example does, in the context of this discussion, citing it is perfectly valid; I know the area well, as not only do I have relatives who have resided there since its formation, my father’s cousin played an instrumental part in the founding of the colony, and it is home to an extensive section of the Awan tribe, drawn from all over Pakistan – thus, mingling amongst its Awan inhabitants will enable one to get a fair idea of the customs of members of my tribe.

I don’t understand why you continue to mention the Kakazai in relation to the Awans – it is a tribe that we have no lineal ties with. Yes, both the Kakazai and Awans use the title ‘Malik’, but so do a number of those belonging to the Janjua tribe, yet they are not of Afghan descent, but Rajputs.

I could turn your question on its head, and ask you to find me sources pre-dating the reign of Ranjit Singh, that do not refer to the Awans as Punjabis. Moreover, I could ask you to extend this to the Jats, Rajputs and Gujars etc. who inhabited the same region during that period. The fact is, Punjab in its present state did not exist at the time, and notions of a Punjabi identity were very different then, to what they are now. And as it is, even during the period the Mughals ruled the region that now forms part of Indian and Pakistani Punjab, a Punjabi state did not even exist – what we recognise as Punjab, was divided into the subahs of Lahore and Multan.

Not only have I read the Wikipedia entry on ‘Hindki’, I have read quite a wide range of works on the subject. As such, I still fail to see the point you’re trying to make. If anything, the bulk of the literature on this topic, contradicts your claims.

Whilst the Wikipedia entry on the Awan tribe carries the remarks of those who served in an administrative capacity during the era of the British Raj, it also quotes contemporary historians, including those who support the traditional claim of the Awans to Arab ancestry – I don’t know why you’ve overlooked this fact. Therefore, for you to say that the traditional claims of the Awan tribe vis-a-vis its ancestry, is bolstered by nothing more than the tales relayed by story tellers to British officers, is disingenuous. It is also interesting you mention the attempt made by one particular individual, to classify the Pashtuns as Rajputs; this viewpoint defies general consensus, and that’s just it – you may claim that the Awans are an Afghan clan, descended from Israelite ancestors, but this simply does not tally with any sort of consensus (general or otherwise) regarding my tribe. The actual general consensus (from both the past and present) is that the Awans are a Punjabi tribe, and more importantly, not only is this a fact recognised by most scholars and those that the Awans live amongst, it is how the majority of Awans view themselves (albeit, as a tribe that traces its origins to Arabia). This is why your claims are so bizarre, particularly when you then try to make far-fetched associations between Awans and Chinese Jews, based on nothing more than observations. Yes, observation serves as important tool in the acquisition of knowledge, but to attempt to make conclusive judgements when it comes to something as complex as the anthropology of a tribe, when the foundation of this is solely your own personal opinions, and especially when you have no expertise in the field, is extremely problematic. A further example that perfectly illustrates this, are the claims you make about the location of the headquarters of the Kalabagh dynasty – the nexus you make between this and the reputation of the Awans as a ‘martial race’, is based entirely on supposition (and I have no need to Google the details of Kalabagh. Besides having read plenty of source material in relation to the region and its connection with the Awan tribe, relatives of mine who regularly visit the place, have told me much about its geography and history, as well as showing me pictures of trips they’ve made there).

I have friends who are Awans, and whose roots lie in the regions you mention, and furthermore, I also have relatives who have also settled there. None of them have ever relayed the opinions you hold (particularly regarding wedding customs). I also made a very simple point, which reflects a global reality, that is, it is perfectly normal for neighbouring groups to absorb, adopt, or at the very least be influenced by, each other’s cultural customs and linguistic patterns – in fact, such an overlap it is to be expected. Hence, you are reading far too much into the observations you have made.

I have already addressed the issue regarding names.

I grew up in London, and have friends belonging to the Jewish, Buddhist and Hindu communities, so I actually am very familiar with the customs of those belonging to these groups (last year I was even invited to celebrate Diwali with a close friend and his family. In addition to this, I have attended a number of Hindu and Sikh weddings). My father worked for a Jewish firm of accountants for over thirty years – when his mentor passed away, I accompanied my father when he attended the funeral service. We have close family friends who are Jewish – having attended the same school as their eldest son, I basically grew up with him, and being one of his closest friends, was invited to his Bar Mitzvah. I have also been a guest at a Jewish wedding, and spent over a year studying Judaism at school as per the demands of the GCSE Religious Studies curriculum; in short, I am more than familiar with Jewish customs and so it is with confidence that I can say Awans do not follow their wedding or funeral rites. Besides you, I have never come across anyone, or any scholarly analysis, declaring the Awans to be Hebrews.

You say that it is not the job of Wikipedia to prove that something is true or false, and that the reader should be left to draw his or her own conclusions. I’m afraid this proves that you do not understand what Wiki policy is – in a nutshell, Wikipedia is not a forum for users to air their own personal opinions; contributions that are made, have to be substantiated by reliable source material – this is why articles being fully referenced is a requirement. And herein lies the crux of the matter – you are unable to produce a single authoritative source to back up your claims, many of which are uniquely held by you. This is why your assertions are very much problematic and contentious.

Regards

Rawalpindi Express (talk) 01:44, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Salaam and sorry for troubling you. Let me appreciate you for keeping strong interest in your culture while living abroad. We are lacking this spirit and unluckily are waiting for foreign researcher to let us know our true history and culture. I am thankful that in the past the British officer’s at least recorded some events of our history but we do have responsibility to check those all claims for authenticity as most of the officer’s stayed at one place for less than a year and reliability of their source of information was not sure to be correct. I have chance to read “Races of Punjab”, “The Pathans” and “The Races of Afghanistan” and found that most of the writers later on just have done the copy and paste job without having any research on the controversial statements at least and this stereo type copy /pasting is just serving to certify even the false statements. In Ideal condition, purity of culture and language could only be achieved in remote areas where one ethnic group lives in majority. This was the reason that Arabs were used to send milk feeding children to live with paid mothers at remotes areas. Within cities every culture / language get influenced by others for different reasons and that is why a cemetery of remote town could be a good choice. Like you my Interest/concern is to save our true culture even if it certify my opinion or otherwise. Even a small evidence need to pay attention as now world became global village and very difficult stop external influence in culture and languages. It is time to preserve what ever we can. Yes, I am willing to add Jats, Gujar of Rajputs to our debate . let me start with Jats and Gujar’s they are Pamirian and to reach India they seem to use 2 routes , via Chitral / Mansehra and via Kashmir . In northern area Sardar yousaf alai Ex-MNA was Chieftain of Gujars and Bakral (sub clan of Gujars) . They are with majority population in Kohistan whereas a handsome population at Mansehra, Chitral and Swat as well. Raj-put Simple meaning is son of Ruler. You may be familiar of word “putr” used in Hindko. They are sacthyian Aryans (or Arian) and Migrated form North of Afghanistan. You may be knowing about arrival of Arya Samaj or Aryan civilization in Indo – Pak history. May be it make you feel laugh at me if I try to add I to Barhaman (Priest class of Hindu is changed form Ibrahaman)but it is not supported by British rulers so I am not going to try it. Some of historian also believe that Area near Heart was the birth place of Hindoism as most of the place mentioned in first Hindo script Reg vida are found near Herat. It is great surprise for me when you call Awan’s as Punjabi tribe. It is only possible if they have moved from west toward their today’s settlements but I have not found any statement even at Wikipedia Awan page to support their migration from the land of five rivers to Awankari or Potohar. As you may be knowing Punjab mean the area of five rivers namely Sutlej, Bias, Ravi, Chenab and Jehlum. Punjab remained a geogrphical term (before 18th century) limiting it to the eastern Bank of Jehlum River which was dividing Punjab and Potohar/Awankari. Potohar territory remained independent authority/province before 18th century. So how come you claim them a Punjabi tribe and same time you call them Sayyed. Is it not a contradictory statement? Today’s Punjab is geographically Aathab (the land of eight rivers Sutlej, Bias, Ravi, Chenab , Jehlum, Sohan, Haro and Sindh River. During Rangit Singh rule Punjab extended to Das-ab (add 2 more Rivers, Swat River and Abaseen River).If we accept your term of Punjabi then people of KPK are Punjabi as well ,as they remained part of Punjab upto 1902 and KPK was separated from Punjab after second population census of India . that’s why I asked you to check Hindki and Hinkowan page of wikipedia before reply.

. The claim of Hashmi origin firstly got noticed and recorded by British officer through story tellers without any evidence but still the question is whether British accepted that claim? I will say “no” as Sayyad’s and Kammi were banned to Join Royal Indian army for discipline reason. “Sayyed” were having much respect in muslims and “Kammi” were having disrespect so it caused them discipline issues among senior and juniors vis a vis. So if British Raj was considering them Sayyed, then how come they were able to join Royal Indian army? A few exceptions are possible though fraudulent entry and hiding real caste.

What makes a common believe? What is source of information of common people ? It is like “Malak Ikhbar kehnda aye ta theek hi hosi” . uUnfortunately Awan’s don’t their own Historians of the Past upto 17th centruy. The story of Hashmi or Arab origin recorded by Brtitish officers without evidence. And lateron got copied as source of information by new writers. Being muslim every one would feel comfortable to be part of Sayyed’s so why he will like to find truth? This is why we are discussing here and you feel my opinion as problematic. So it is time we research to find truth if we can have a hardworking team , we could make links or we leave it as it is for our successors to have a proud which is not of their own. I born / grew up and lived for 40 years at Tehsil Pindigheb in a village which is located at a walking distance of Allama Sajid Naqvi’s ancestral village Malhowali. Now more than 12 years I am out of country but used to visit once a year. You grewup out side tribe and even outside country so you are not familiar with each and every customs . Punjabi Bhangra is not main stream Awan’s custom. Kumher (Awan,s of Hazara/ KPK) Ghumer( talagang/Pindigheb and Jand) Jhomer is the best famous dance among Awan of Mianwali and salt range alongwith ludi, barballa and khaid. You could watch these videos on youtube . Regarding Chinese Jew wedding got celebrated at Tal aviv. I still recommend you to view proposed video along with someone from Talagang Pindi Gheb, Jand or Chakwal. Just consider it one experience. If you have skype or gmail I can send you pictures of Awan,s Marraiges having these function and gharooli. My Id is same for skype and gmail as zarin144. Please accept my appology if you find me rude but you know nothing about Kalabagh or it’s near about,s road links and the reason for having this name, neither this information is on wikipedia because unfortunately British officer forgot to record and we need to wait till they come again and write some true stories so if I write some thing you are not going to believe because my work will need time to bet published. So you don’t know and don’t want to know location or cultural video which verify my claim May be for you, your ego is more important than the truth.. if your relative really used to go to Kalabagh then ask him which five accesses take one to Kalabagh. if you could Tell me 3 of 5 accesses to Kalabagh I will accept that your relative have really visited Kalabagh. Do you know in which district Kalabagh is located? which access directly enter the Havaily of Nawab Sahib? Your relative may be knowing matters of Baghochi Mahaz and their issue with Son of Nawab Amir Muhammad Khan. He may be knowing Who was Azam Khan and Sarmast Khan? wWho was Muhammad Khan Dhurnalia and his connections with Nawab Sahib. Truth walks with ant speed and false fly with jet speed. Let us leave to readers to watch Jew wedding videos whether to break paper cup (any water drinking utensils) is mandatory after Jew Nikkah or otherwise? People who have interest to know truth will watch. Regards Zarrigul (talk) 14:02, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Salaam Zarrigul. Thank you for your kind comments. Whilst I may not agree with you on many points, I do recognise that you are passionate about the topics we are presently debating.

Whilst there are indeed those who are of non-South Asian origin conducting considerable research into the history and culture of the Subcontinent and its peoples, there are also those hailing from South Asia who are making just as much of an effort. However, where these individuals happen to be from, is really of no consequence – as long as the work they produce is of the necessary quality, it is of value. However, you do partly acknowledge this. And I wholeheartedly agree that every attempt should be made to verify the authenticity and reliability of the source material available to us.

I don’t see why you find it surprising that I would refer to the Awan as a Punjabi tribe – it is a fact widely acknowledged by the majority of the tribe, those the Awans live amongst, and historians too. Let me present you with the example of my family – for centuries, my father’s ancestors resided in Jalandhar district (village Khambran), whereas my mother’s ancestors were settled for the same period of time in Hoshiarpur district (in fact, it was an ancestor of my mother named Musahib Khan, who seven generations ago, founded her ancestral village, Musahibpur) – upon Partition, both of these districts were awarded to East/Indian Punjab, which resulted in my mother, father and their respective families, shifting to Pakistan (and it may interest you to know that prior to the creation of Pakistan, Awans so heavily populated Jalandhar district, that an Awankari was to be found there, and an Awan bara existed in Hoshiapur district up to the time of the British Raj). The majority of my relatives now live in Lahore, though my mother grew up in Gujranwala district. For hundreds of years, my mother and father’s families have lived in the heart of Punjab, as they do to this day. For hundreds of years, their mother tongue has been Punjabi, as it is to this day. For hundreds of years, they have dressed in a Punjabi fashion, followed Punjabi culinary habits, embraced Punjabi culture, and adhered to Punjabi customs and rites, and all of this still applies to this day; so, if we are not Punjabi, then what are we? The thing is, you seem to be confused about what it means to be a Punjabi – Punjab is a melting pot, made up of a wide array of ethnic groups (Jats, Rajputs, Awans, Arains, Gujjars, etc.), who arrived in Punjab at various points in history, and it is by virtue of having been settled there for centuries (if not longer), that they have become part of the fabric of Punjab, and hence are unequivocally Punjabis. In their widely read book, Freedom At Midnight, Larry Colins and Dominique Lapierre succinctly sum up the point I am making:

“...The Punjabis, in whose veins flowed the blood of thirty centuries of conquerors, were scions of the steppes of Central Asia, and their Aryan features bore the traces of Turkestan, Russia, Persia, the deserts of Arabia...”

Thus, although I have never categorically claimed that the Awans are Sayyids (and neither do most Awans, as our traditions state that we are descended from Hazrat Ali, but by a wife other than Hazrat Fatimah, and hence we claim to be Alvis – there is a subtle but important distinction between the two), if you take into account the above, there is no contradiction between one identifying himself/herself as a Punjabi, yet tracing his/her origins to Arabia (though I don’t emphatically claim that the Awans are descended from Arabs either, although for reasons I have already gone into, I do believe that one needs to keep an open mind in relation to this). Even Punjabi Sayyids (if they’re being honest) would have to concede that their Arab bloodline has been diluted following the lengthy period of time they have been resident in Punjab, and through intermarriages that have inevitably taken place at some point (and all the Sayyids that I know of who hail from Punjab, speak Punjabi – not Arabic – at home, and all identify themselves as Punjabi. The validity of their claim to be Sayyids is a different matter altogether...). Following your logic, one of my closest friends who is a Jat Sikh, and whose ancestral village lies in Jalandhar district, isn’t a Punjabi either, as his family maintain that the Jats arrived in the Subcontinent from Central Asia. Let me give you one further example to illustrate the point I am making; Khizr Hayat Khan Tiwana, the last leader of the Punjab Unionist Party, was an aristocrat whose family had been settled on its estate in Kalra for nearly a century by the time the British relinquished control of the Subcontinent (the land having been granted by the British as a result of Malik Sahib Khan – Khizr’s grandfather – remaining loyal to the British during the Revolt of 1857); he was also known for taking great pride in being a Punjabi Rajput, yet as his biographer, Ian Talbot points out (in Khizr Tiwana: The Punjab Unionist Party and the Partition of India):

“...The Tiwanas were not originally Punjabis, or Muslims. According to basic traditions, they were descended from the Parmaras Rajputs who ruled in the Dhar, Mandu and Ujaain areas of central India (present day Madhya Pradesh) in the ninth and tenth centuries...”

The fact is, the vast majority of us are products of migration that took place at some time or another (and indeed, human migration continues to this day unabated). You’d be hard pressed to find groups that have always been indigenous to a particular region (in the sense that such groups absolutely cannot trace their roots outside of the regions they are native to), and this also applies to Punjab. We all have a distant past – Awans claim that theirs lies in Arabia, and even though I have outlined my family’s past settlement patterns, I can trace this even further back to the Salt Range (in the case of my father’s ancestors) and Rawalpindi district (in the case of my mother’s ancestors).

It might be difficult for you to take this on board, but for someone like me who grew up in a multi-cultural society, it is not a problem. I see no conflict in identifying myself as British Pakistani (although identity is something that is multi-layered for most of us).

I think you’re also somewhat playing with semantics. You may well divide Punjab into regions such as Potohar (or even the Seraiki speaking belt), but this also applies to the Punjabi heartland which, for example, can be divided into the Majhi, Doabi and Malwi regions (each speaking a distinct dialect of Punjabi) – this is why the question of redrawing the map of Punjab along linguistic lines, continues to be such a controversial issue. Furthermore, I have a close friend who is an Awan, whose relatives have been settled in the Potohar region for centuries, and who speaks Potohari at home – yet he refers to himself as a Punjabi; why? Simply put, the boundaries of Potohar lie within those of Punjab, and unless a Potohar province is created, he will continue to refer to himself as Punjabi. The same also holds true for a friend of mine who is a Janjua, and whose relatives reside in the Salt Range. The thing is, contrary to what you claim, both of these individuals see little difference between the cultural practices of the regions their families hail from, and those of the people of the Punjabi heartland. Moreover, my family is friendly with a Potohari speaking family, with whom my mother converses in Punjabi, yet both they, and my mother, understand each other perfectly well (hence underlining how similar both languages are. And if anything, my mother speaks Doabi Punjabi which isn’t even indigenous to Pakistan). Above all, ethnically, a Janjua from the Salt Range, is no different from his Rajput kinsmen found in the Punjabi heartland (and indeed, no different from his Janjua kinsmen in Indian Punjab, who happen to be Sikhs and Hindus), just as an Awan from Potohar, is ethnically no different to an Awan found in the the Punjabi heartland – they’re the same people, and this is why you’re so wrong in regards to your comments regarding the boundaries of Punjab up to 1901; those who were native to what now constitutes Khyber Paktunkhwa, not only spoke a language completely distinct from Punjabi, i.e. Pashto (whereas a strong case continues to be made by academics that Potohari is basically a dialect of Punjabi, and hence why mainland Punjabi speakers and Potohari speakers can understand each other), unlike Potoharis and mainland Punjabis who essentially belong to the same ethnic group, Pashtuns are a separate ethnic group altogether, and this fact was recognised (to an extent) by the creation of the North-West Frontier Province.

When one considers all of the above, I am baffled as to why you are not willing to accept basic geographical, historical and social realities, all of which point to the Awans being a Punjabi Muslim tribe, yet in the absence of any evidence whatsoever, or academic work to back up your claims, you continue to insist that the Awans are an Afghan subtribe, which can trace its origins to the Israelites (and which also makes it difficult to understand why you then see any contradiction between the Awans being a Punjabi tribe which claims to trace its origins to Arabia). I actually am friendly with a few Pashtuns, including those belonging to Peshawar and Hazara (i.e. where Awans are to be found in considerable numbers), and they look upon the Awans settled there as Punjabi migrants, including those who speak Pashto and have adopted the customs of their Pashtun neighbours.

No, the Awans claiming ties to Hazrat Ali were not first relayed by story tellers during the era of the British Raj. On the main page of the Wiki article dealing with the Awan tribe, is a photograph of a letter which makes mention of a book called Kihalastah al-Nisab and is said to be amongst the first works dealing with the history of the Awans – it was written before the British set foot in the Subcontinent. Moroever, before British rule was established in India, the Awans employed mirasis who, as part of their duties, had to memorise the family tree of whatever particular Awan family happened to employ them; my mother’s family actually employed one such mirasi, whose ancestors were also in their service, and as per the custom of the time, he would not set foot in their home until he had recited my maternal grandfather’s family tree, stretching back all the way to Hazrat Ali’s name. My father’s family tree was dictated to me many years ago, and though I have misplaced it, a copy exists that is in the possession of a relative of mine who lives in Faisalabad. It too records the name of Hazrat Ali. Disputing the accuracy of these family trees is something I don’t have the time to get into; however, you ask whether or not the British accepted the claims made by the Awans to Arab ancestry – well, as the main article highlights, there were those who rejected any such claim, whereas there were also those who were willing to accept the traditional account promulgated by my tribe. However, my mother’s brother did inform me that when land disputes arose which involved an Awan, the British were willing to accept the family trees I have made reference to, as admissible supporting evidence (and my mother’s brother said that my maternal great-grandfather serves as a real-life example of this being out into practice).

Who says that the British barred Sayyids from serving in the British Indian Army? How do you then explain the illustrious career of Major General Syed Shahid Hamid (author of Disastrous Twilight), who during the British Raj, served in three campaigns during World War II, was a Senior Instructor at the Command and Staff College (Quetta), and was Field Marshal Sir Claude Auchinleck’s private Military Secretary? And as I have stated previously, most Awans do not claim to be Sayyids per se.

Contrary to what you say, despite not having been born or brought up in Pakistan, I am very well accustomed with the customs of my parents – Pakistani/Punjabi culture is practised widely and vigorously in the U.K. amongst the immigrant communities hailing from that part of South Asia, and my family is no different. I never claimed that Bhangra is a mainstream cultural custom of the Awan tribe, the point I made about this issue was in order to counter the sweeping generalisations you were making about my tribe. Why would I need pictures of Awan weddings? I’m an Awan, and have attended countless Awan weddings. More importantly, I have never denied that Awans belonging to various localities, will have their own unique customs (and this is true of other tribal groups throughout the length and breadth of Pakistan), but you simply cannot discount the customs practised by my section of the tribe, because it is not consistent with what you have seen. I have also previously explained how and why one will come to adopt the customs, practices and lifestyle of the people he/she lives amongst, and of his/neighbours, and why you continue to read far too much into this. The link being made between the Awans and Chinese Jews is just baffling, not to mention tenuous. As I said, though you repeatedly ask for proof or source material to back up viewpoints that do not match your own (despite there being a fair amount of this contained within the Wiki article), beyond your own personal opinions (which are highly unorthodox) and observations, you are still unable to proffer any source material to substantiate your claims – is there any widely recognised scholarly work, that supports your contentions? If I was to follow your lead, then I could claim that because the Punjabi counting system closely resembles the Irish Gaelic counting system (and it is you who originally put a great deal of stress on linguistics) – strikingly so – then this means that the Irish are descended from Punjabis or vice-versa; yet who would take this claim seriously?

My ego matters more to me than the truth? Not only is this wholly untrue, how can you so confidently claim that you are in possession of the “truth” when you’re unable to back up your claims by citing the views of others who have some expertise in this field?

As for my relatives visiting Kalabagh, if you wish to believe what I have to say in this respect, great, if not, then so be it. As it is, my comments about Kalabagh were in response to suppositions you were making regarding the location of the headquarters of the Kalabagh Maliks, and the martial prowess of the Awans (though I fail to see a connection between the two).

As for the list of notable Awans, due to this (and other similar articles) at one point becoming saturated with names that did not qualify as prominent personalities, it was broadly agreed upon that only those individuals for whom an entry already exists on Wikipedia, would be deemed worthy of having their names listed.

I’m not sure if you’re asking about welfare organisations that have been set up to benefit the needy in the areas you’ve mentioned throughout this debate, but I do know of the following organisation, and having had personal contact with its founding members, can verify that it is a genuine operation committed to help those in need:

http://www.subahsadiq.com/

To be honest, there are now constraints on my time, so we will just have to respectfully agree to disagree.

Regards

Rawalpindi Express (talk) 04:49, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Herat in the time of Mahmud of Ghazni

Two facts may be included in this article .
This article states that Qutab Shah was the King of Herat at the time of Mahmud Ghazni but sources from the history of Herat state otherwise .
Here are the references from reliable and verifiable sources abut the political dispensation in Herat at the time of Ghazni:

Herāt was under the rule of King Nuh III of Samanid the seventh of the Samanid line—at the time of Sebük Tigin and his older son, Mahmud of Ghazni.

The governor of Herāt was a noble by the name of Faik, who governed on behalf of Nuh III. Faik was a powerful, but insubordinate governor of Nuh III; and had been punished by Nuh III. Faik made overtures to Bogra Khan and Ughar Khan of Khorasan. Bogra Khan answered Faik's call, came to Herāt and became its master. The Samanids fled, betrayed at the hands of Faik to whom the defence of Herāt had been entrusted by Nuh III.

In 994, Nuh III invited Alp Tigin to come to his aid. Alp Tigin, along with Mahmud of Ghazni, defeated Faik and annexed Herāt, Nishapur and Tous.

Secondly Prof Ahmad Hasan Dani the eminent Pakistani Historians views about the Awans detailed below in his own words .

“ The geographical name Gandhara continued until AD10 century, i.e for nearly twenty-five hundred years, when after the overthrow of the Hindu Shahi dynasty by Sultan Mahmud of Ghazni, it was incorporated into his Ghazni empire and Gandhara was forgotten into the limbo of history. The Arab conquest of this region does not record Pakhto or Pakya because the Arabs fought with the Turki Shahi or Hindu Shahi rulers. However, the spread of Islam transformed the whole mental make-up and tradition of the people. Many of the tribes started connecting themselves with the Semitic tribes or with Iranian heroes of Shanamah fame; e.g. Gakkhars call themselves Kianis, and the Awans associate themselves with Qutub Shahis. Similarly, the Pakhtuns trace their traditional origin from the lost tribes of the Jews, as recorded in the Makhzan-i-Afghana of the time of Sher Shah Suri. It is after the conquest of the Arabs that the name Khyber was applied to the pass and Ali Masjid was built there near the old Buddhist site. But the name Khyber was never used this side of Jamrud. However, the Pakhto tribes got associated with Turkic conquerors and along with them they spread out into north India right up to Bengal.

From AD 10 century onward the Muslim historians use the word Afghan in their works but in India the world Pakhto is corrupted as Pathan or sometimes a new word is deprived from Roh, i.e. Koh Sulaiman and we get the world Rohilla or Rohilkhand, which played an important part in the later Mughal history.With the spread of the Timurid Empire the Afghan tribes were much disturbed. With Timur’s son Shah Rukh sitting at his new capital of Herat, having full control over Kandahar, the Pakhtun tribes around Kandahar were shaken. Some tribes, like Tarin, moved into norther part of Balochistan, and others like Lodhis, Suris, Niazis and Durranis came to Punjab. The Yusufzais moved towards Kabul and later when Babar occupied Kabul, the Yusufzais spread eastward towards Bajaur, Dir, Swat, Mardan and Peshawar districts, displacing the earlier tribes who took shelter in Hazara.

”

Intothefire (talk) 17:19, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

Hi, Intothefire. Thank you for your recent contribution to this article. You have made some cogent points, and as such, I have amended the article accordingly. However, I have removed the quote you included from the main body of the article; much of it is out of place and does not flow with the rest of the article, especially the opening (and so comes across as a random comment) – this is because the work that you cited, does not deal with the Awans per se, but is a commentary on Khyber Paktunkhwa, and thus makes more sense when the preceding comments within the piece the quote is taken from, are read in their entirety as well. However, Professor Dani’s views are valid, and therefore I have ensured that reference has been made to them in the article.

Regards

Rawalpindi Express (talk) 03:21, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Hi Rawalpindi Express

• Thankyou for the great effort and attention you put into the article . Your contributions are commendable .
• However the quote from Prof Ahmad Hasan Dani in his own words is preferable for wikipedia over your summary of this eminent Pakistani historians opinion .The comment is not random but pointedly significant to the section and adds to the flow
  
• The article content is somewhat jumbled right now and needs crisper sections for better flow , which we should work on .
• Some of the personal commentary needs to be deleted for example the sentence :
  

It should be noted that these theories were partly founded on grounds of phonetics, geographical considerations and observational coincidences, and remain conjecture having never been corroborated by the Awan tribe or neighbouring clans

• There is also more reliable and verifiable content deleted , inclusion of which which would make the article more comprehensive .
  

Look forward to collaborating then

Cheers
Intothefire (talk) 18:14, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

• Put back my signature where my post ended , which seems to have inadvertently been pushed in the wrong place Viz : After user Zarrigul' s post .
  Intothefire (talk) 03:33, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Hi Intothefire. I hope all is well at your end.

Thank you for your kind comments. Your efforts on a wide variety of topics relating to the Punjab, its history and its people, are also much appreciated.

I still maintain that Professor Dani’s quote does not flow with the rest of the article, and this is why it appears random (to me at least). Yes, reference is made to the Awan tribe, but the quote opens with the words, “However, the spread of Islam transformed the whole mental make-up and tradition of the people.” Which “people”? It just seems like a statement made out of the blue and unless the quote is contextualised properly, it does present problems in terms of comprehension, and looks out of place - that is why I stated that for it to fully make sense, the quote needs to be read in conjunction with Dani’s preceding remarks. The quote in its entirety also deals with subjects that are irrelevant to the article, e.g. Pakhtuns, the ‘Makzan-i-Afghana’, the naming of the Khyber Pass, the Ali Masjid etc. – these are of no relevance to the main topic of the article. As such, a summary of Dani’s views vis-a-vis the Awans is more apt.

I welcome any effort to further clean up the article, so if you would like to assist in this regard, your co-operation would be most welcome.

I’ve taken on board what you have to say about personal commentary, and have deleted the relevant comments.

Whilst making the article more comprehensive would certainly be step in the right direction, just reading through the wide array of opinions submitted on this discussion page, underlines that it is matter of considerable debate if the content that has been previously deleted, really is all that reliable.

Regards

Rawalpindi Express (talk) 04:55, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Response to Rawalpindi Express

Salam. In my previous reply I have already mentioned about migration of tribes living at Punjab (within the limit of 5 rivers) they were first migration after Aryans. Awan and Pashtuns are part of second Migration. Who got settled at the westren bank of Jehlum river. Later some migration happend as individual cases, mostly the war lords who got Jagir’s or merchant class moved toward east as invidual case and later converted to a town or village. I am not confused at all. I want to mention the difference of “blood line identity “ and “regional identity.”. An Awan /Afghan grown up within territorial limits of 5 rivers can call himself “Punjabi” and Awan/Afghan as well but this term does not apply to Majority as they don’t lived within original limits of Punjab or they were never living there in past history therefore a few cases like yours are exceptional and as you adopted Punjabi cultural (which indeed got influenced by a lot of races /Awan Afghans /Jats Arrain etc who got settled their time to time). Thus it can get place as adopted culture instead of Pure Awan culture . Similary Afghans were having pretty much presence at Pathan Kot, ludhyana and Qasur etc. Even too far in Bihar still have villages with Afridi sub clan names like koki khel , Qamar khel etc. To conclude one can change the regional identity, one can opt to change his passport colour, but he can’t changed blood line. I used to read a poetry book when I was at class three. I am not sure that was poetry of famous Punjabi Poet Waris shah or some one have put it together with poetry of Waris Shah. That was having the whole story stating that Hazrat Ali (K..W) was sent to conquer one undefeated fort (somewhere at Iran) which was ruled by a Young girl. She was a good wrestler as well she offered a deal to Hazrat Ali KW that if he can defeat her in wrestling she will not only surrender but marry him. So after losing she converted to Islam and got married to Hazrat Ali later she got a son named Muhammad Hanfia. A few points of this story does not convince me as Wrestling of man and woman, according to story Hazrat Ali (KW)snatched Muhammad Hanfia when he saw him collecting dates . later when they reached home Hazrat Fatima (RA)got unhappy seeing him on the shoulders of Hazrat Ali K.W. and ;astly the claim that Muhammad Hanfia will take revenge of Ali's children. I have got a family tree of Awan's from Internet claiming of Hashmi origin. I am studying it and would appreciate if someone who or his relative have Awan family tree as mentioned in the page, share with me to compare If you talk about dialects, I believe in linguistic term the eastren side of River Indus from lahore to Karachi is one language, whether one call it Punjabi, Saraiki, Hindko,Multani or Sindhi . In my opinion Potohari is more rich for separate verbs as compare to other dialects . I can speak all the eastren indus dialects inculding westren dialects of Pashto and Chinese as well. A dialect can get status of language when it have plenty of its own verbs otherwise it will stay in status of dialect. All above dialects share same verbs. Most of verbs punjabi,Saraiki or Hindko verbs ends at “a” Try to replace “a with “o”. it will become Sindhi verb. How come we consider them separate language. Changa- chango , Mitha – Mitho, wainda- waindo The reason is settlers influence to the local language of the region . the difference between local language and Hindko is Pashtu influence, like punjabi or Sindhi(local language) when got influenced by Pashtu and Baluchi it become Saraiki .Majority of those claiming themselves pure Sindhi are Baluch from blood line. “...The Tiwanas were not originally Punjabis, or Muslims. According to basic traditions, they were descended from the Parmaras Rajputs who ruled in the Dhar, Mandu and Ujaain areas of central India (present day Madhya Pradesh) in the ninth and tenth centuries...” Similarly We see in History during the rule of King Sher Shah Suri that Sher Afgan Niazi, conquered Bengal and he was appointed as ruler of the Bengal province. Today Niazi's are living in Salt Range. but no one could claim that today's Niazi's are Successors of Sher Afgan but the truth is that Sher Afgan Niazi moved from this area to rule Bengal. Till today Many village of Tehsil Pindigheb and Jand (i am much familiar with these 2 tehsils)have Hindo/Sikh tribes name like Masan , Injra, Chhab, Jhamat Uchhri, Sorag, Jand, Langar, Basal , Kahal, Gagan and Rangli etc, for instant if The theory of Hindu origin is correct who dragged these Hindo tribes from here? Today Awan's are living in living in these village (except Chhab and Masan). Usually cousin tribes used to live side by side. So in case of Awan's Hindo origin these tribes were supposed to be the cousin tribes then how come Awan's make them disappeared from the vacanity? “ I have a close friend who is an Awan, whose relatives have been settled in the Potohar region for centuries, and who speaks Potohari at home – yet he refers to himself as a Punjabi;” Brother It is not a matter of pick and chose or a kind of window shopping. Similar Like Punjab , Potohar is a geographical term. He can't do pick and chose. Where he lives that is his geographical identity like ZIP code/area code or domicile. If I like to claim as Behari it will not be accepted till I am not living or staying there at Behar.

“ Simply put, the boundaries of Potohar lie within those of Punjab, and unless a Potohar province is created, he will continue to refer to himself as Punjabi” yeah in provincial term it is correct but in geographical term it is uncorrect as we are living at Aath-ab, and this is cruel reality . Raja Ranjeet Singh annexed Potohar in Punjab by force. Please Don’t forget, that was basic enmity which left the only option for Awan’s to join British forces to fight against Sikha Shahi. It seems a fit case for revival of Potohar province or changing the name of Punjab province to Aath-ab.I am sorry if some reader feel offended and find my comments baised but it is just logical debate “ That Potohari is basically a dialect of Punjabi, and hence why mainland Punjabi speakers and Potohari speakers can understand each other), unlike Potoharis and mainland Punjabis who essentially belong to the same ethnic group,” Potohari or Satyali are dialect of Kashmiri language although a bit influenced by local language (punjabi or sindhi what ever we call it). People of Potohar are Bi- langual . Alongwith Potohari they can speak local language . Potohari keep plenty of its own verbs as compare to other dialects. If the lady talk with your mother in true Potohari, may be you mother can’t understand that . “kore gach-rran ain” is Potohari sentence which mean where are you going. Try to Check its similarity with any punjabi dialect? “I am baffled as to why you are not willing to accept basic geographical, historical and social realities, all of which point to the Awans being a Punjabi Muslim tribe, yet in the absence of any evidence whatsoever, or academic work to back up your claims, you continue to insist that the Awans are an Afghan subtribe, “You overlook this page have enough references of Qutab Shah connections with Heart (Ghore or Ghazni) and his arrival to area with Muhammad Ghori. , Afghans were also part of that army. This makes connection. Some of the soldiers got married with local and some don’t get married. Gradually this matter isolated them from each other. As mentioned by the population census report that at Rawalpindi successors of Awans marrying low caste family girls were not accepted as Awan’s so what you think about 1000 years before . The marriages with local hindu girls isolated them from Main stream tribe and the lost their ancestral language all of sudden. This is again a Israelite custom as only son of Jew mother can claim to be a pure Jew . till today successor of non Jew mother is not accepted by Judism.. For evidences we are mostly depending on foreign travellers/ Historians etc and their claims need research in depth. Awan ruled persia for 360 then got disappeared from History. Later Historian start telling us about Avekan, apgan, Awgan, Afghana and Afghana. Pakhta (as linguistic identity) or Pakhtakya This do make connection if we understand that the reason of this change is merely linguistic. As every language have some Pronouciation issues , or lake of some character in table like Arabic don’t have symbol to express “G” and “B”. so if some Arabian meet me will write mey name as Mr.Jul instead of Mr.Gul. Similarly when a chinese write Pakistan he will write As “Ba Ji Si tan” with 4 characters. Sp historian of copy paste will skip it away. Another example I will give you from our urdu news papers. A former Chinese leader is famous in Pakistan. In our history we write him as (Roman Urdu) chu or Qu in lai If you show this name to a Chinese educated person ,He will say I don’t know him. Because they used to write him “Zhou en lai” but pronounce as “Jhu” which we guess as Qu or Chu . Let me elaborate it bit more. If I ask you to translate the word Kala-Bagh. you have 2 choices. First you come with translation of “black garden” whereas garden is never black but green. Other is to chose the logic that the person who chose that name was color blind. But when you see the surrondings word Kala is used for Dhok or village. Like Kot Kala. (Village with fort), Sarai Kala, village with Sarai. Shah Baz Kala (village of Shahbaz). It is tropical Pashtu term. Loghari’s of D.G Khan today are considered as Baluch sub tribe but at Afghanistan they are Pashtu speaker. But other Baluch tribes at Afghanistan speak Baluchi

“Moroever, before British rule was established in India, the Awans employed mirasis who, as part of their duties, had to memorise the family tree”It was quite possible when population was less . Mirasis are still Living in community and they have 4-6 male in on union council.It seems difficult job any how if one sit with local revenue office or patwari for few months he can find his certified copy of family tree very easily which is acceptable in court of law. Each and every thing is recorded. Revenue office maintain record according to Pat/Pati (Khel).where ever one tribes/clan lives , their land record is maintained seperately. Each khel or Pat have his own book .They keep it updating through death transfer of inherited lands after each 4 years. In my previous reply , I have mentioned of few exception. Mojrity of Awan’s were serving in lower ranks and they start joining as officers after first world war. even later the ratio of officers was less than .01% . As explained before that “Kammi” was a discipline problem being Senior as Junior soldiers were reluctant to obey him and Syed was issue being Junior solider as his Seniors being Sadaat paying him respect which british officer were considering against discipline. “you simply cannot discount the customs practised by my section of the tribe, because it is not consistent with what you have seen.”. For me a custom existing till date or was part of customs in the past in main stream tribe at Awankari is custom of the tribe. Whereas A custom which majority tribe is not familiar with or their forefathers were not familiar with will always be considered as adopted custom. One can keep on doing what makes him feel good. No doubt Some like to see Mujra at their weddings that but that is not Awan custom. That is just individual liking. ,”Punjabi counting system closely resembles the Irish Gaelic counting system (and it is you who originally put a great deal of stress on linguistics) – strikingly so – then this means that the Irish are descended from Punjabis or vice-versa; yet who would take this claim seriously?”You explain it a bit more. In my opinion Punjabi counting system closely resemble with Pashtu instead of Irish and when we talk of Aryan theory and accept Punjabi as an Englo-indian language. That makes a good connection to have some thing in common. Thanks for giving my this TIP. I am trying to write down counting tables of Pashtu , Punjabi, Arabic, Persian ,Chinese and hopefully finish by today. English anf Irish you already know . Let us see which table is more similar to others. “As for my relatives visiting Kalabagh,” My questions are so simple and still there.I am sure Neither you know about Kalabagh/ it’s surrounding nor your relative ever been there. only two towns of Punjab are on the westren bank of Indus. Kalabagh which share population by Niazi, Khattak and Awan tribe and another town is "tabbi Sar" which is merely Khattak tribe population. any person from Awankari (chakwal, sargodhe, Jehlum, Khushab or attock district)if want to go to Kalabagh. first he have to go to Mianwali. Kalabagh don't have direct road link with Awankari at all bypassing Mianwali. You can’t find the answer of my simple questions regarding Kalabagh family because these you can’t find on Wikipedia.. You don’t like to google it, you don’t want to see evidence. For each matter your friends and relatives are the source. Today because of internet world became a global village. Every wedding video is being uploaded on youtube. Why you are hesitant to see the customs of main stream tribe? And forcing others to accept that Bhangra is the only dance Awan’s perform. here under i am pasting a link for picture of Nawab of Kala Bagh .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ayub_khan_at_school.jpg and this is link for the picture of sardar abdur rab Nishter and a person representing Punjab. http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=sardar+abdur+rab+Nishter&view=detail&id=EC4AC52F3F78E9174990EC4AC52F3F78E9174990&first=0&FORM=IDFRIR

after checking both picture let me know Nawab Sahib costum match with Sadar Nishter or Punjabi leader? this is youtube video link for Wali Khan visit to Afghanistan. In this video Famous pashtun poer Ajmal Khattak and Hamza Shinwari are wearing kulla like Nawab Amir Muhammad Khan. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3M1Q3Za0IM on internet do have some pictures of Sardar Sir Sinkander Hayat khan wearing the same Kullah. regard Zarrigul (talk) 14:46, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Response to Prof Dani's findings

My this response is regarding publication of Prof Dani, quote "The Arab conquest of this region does not record Pakhto or Pakya because the Arabs fought with the Turki Shahi or Hindu Shahi rulers. However, the spread of Islam transformed the whole mental make-up and tradition of the people. Many of the tribes started connecting themselves with the Semitic tribes or with Iranian heroes of Shanamah fame"" unquote. The first part of the name "Afghan" designates the Pashtun people since ancient times, the founders of Afghanistan and the largest ethnic group of the country.[18] This name is mentioned in the form of Abgan in the 3rd century CE[19] and as Avagana or Afghana in the 6th century CE.

The Encyclopædia Iranica states:

From a more limited, ethnological point of view, "Afghān" is the term by which the Persian-speakers of Afghanistan (and the non-Paštō-speaking ethnic groups generally) designate the Paštūn. The equation [of] Afghan [and] Paštūn has been propagated all the more, both in and beyond Afghanistan, because the Paštūn tribal confederation is by far the most important in the country, numerically and politically. The term "Afghān" has probably designated the Paštūn since ancient times. Under the form Avagānā, this ethnic group is first mentioned by the Indian astronomer Varāha Mihira in the beginning of the 6th century CE in his Brihat-samhita.[18] The Greek historian Herodotus first mentioned a people called Pactyans, living on the eastern frontier of the Persian Satrapy Arachosia as early as the 1st millennium B.C.E.. [17] In addition, the Rig-Veda mentions a tribe called the Pakthas (in the region of Pakhat) inhabiting eastern Afghanistan, and some have speculated that they may have been early ancestors of the Pashtuns.[18] Other ancient peoples linked to the Pashtuns includes the Bactrians who spoke a related Middle Iranian language.

The Pashtuns used the term, referring to a common legendary ancestor known as Afghana. the aspa-soi (yousaf Zai) and Dadi-cai (recent ZaZai or probably today's Tajik if we break word as dadic-ai) and Sattak-dia (chettak or khattak) seems to be ancentral tribe of Afghans . these tribes are commomly quoted by Historian in pre Islam history. King Soul had grandson named Afghana (Son of Jermia)who was leader of the Prophet Sulemans PBUH army and they similar tribes got mentioned by roman historians during Alexander expedition. Most of our researcher do copy and paste job without logically analysing the work compiled by historians of foreign origin. In the past communication gap was a big hurdle between local narrator and foreigner as majority of local population were uneducated. .

Some anthropologists lend credence to the mythical oral traditions of the Pashtun tribes themselves. For example, according to the Encyclopaedia of Islam, the theory of Pashtun descent from Israelites traces to Maghzan-e-Afghani who compiled a history for Khan-e-Jehan Lodhi in the reign of Mughal Emperor Jehangir in the seventeenth century C.E. Another book that corresponds with Pashtun historical records, Taaqati-Nasiri, states that in the seventh century a people called the Bani Israel settled in Ghor, southeast of Herat, Afghanistan, and then migrated south and east. Those Bani Israel references stand in line with the commonly held view by Pashtuns that when the twelve tribes of Israel dispersed, the tribe of Joseph, among other Hebrew tribes, settled in the region.[32] Hence the tribal name 'Yusef Zai' in Pashto translates to the 'sons of Joseph'. Iranian historian Ferishta told a similar story.[33]"in fact that time when Afghans starts claiming themselves with Israellite traces. Israellite were not having any kind of political position in the area which can attract the people for attachment. Attachment with rich and powerful is common but here the situation is reverse both times the Afghan Kings show the attachment with the people who were not having political influence in the region. So this make sense to be a true statement and this proves that findings of Prof Wani are not correct" . Pashtuns of Afghanistan and Pakistan have two dialects. Qirni and khilji . Saturday is prayers days for Jews and Holy Quran do certify that God prohibited Bani Israel not to do hunting on Saturday. Pashtu word for saturday in Qirni's dialect is "Na" which mean no or prohibited. Khilji dialect people use word "khali" for saturday which mean empty or holiday . but again i dont have any evidance expect that Pashtun use these words. moreover Pashtun's do call themselves Pakhtana (mean as Pashtu speaker)and for other Jew customs we have discussed a lot. Pashtun use word "Tour" for express black colour of burnt object. which seems to be a hebrew word keeping in view the Quranice story of "koh-e-tour". Pashtun while exchange greeting say salom instead of salam. "mo salom wer ta wa la zha". "zma salom wer ka" mean pay him my salam .Jew do say shalom/salom.

another common belief that Afghan Jews after hearing about Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) sent a delegation headed by Qais . The met Prophet PBUH and embrassed Islam as most of teachings of both religions are almost same . too much differences in teachings make people resist to accept. So on the return of delegation , all the afghan Jews accepted Islam. Pashtuns are known for resistance and nothing could force them to accept a religin all of sudden else otherwise they are convinced that both religins are same and it's kind of revivaltheir existing religin. They accepted Islam long before the arrival of Arabs in the Area therefore if we dont find them in history resiting Arab Army. The same happend in all turkish Tribes.today even we can find jews and christians among Arabs but not among Pashtuns. .

regarding DNA please check link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pashtun_people#Genetics_.26_Anthropology

I have found some content from internet for the sign of people helping Imam Mehdi against Dajal which need to get verified from the book of hadith

1. They will come from the East 2. They will be from the race of Bani Ishaq/Al-e-Haroon/Bani-Israel or Nation of liberated slaves 3 They will come from the historical geographical region of Ancient Khorasan. 4. Their Leader will be wearing QUTWANI CLOAKS. 5. They will be from the tribe of QAIS (or KASH) 6. They will be from a poor Nation. 7. They are from a place with cold climate. 8. They will be undefeated Nation In this region only Awan/ Afghans and Kashmiri's used to wear cloaks and pass the seven signs. Pashtuns claim thesmeselves as from Bani Israel so they match the eighth sign too. Regards Zarrigul (talk) 22:33, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Which regional numberal are close to Awankari numberal

Awankari Hindko Numbrals1. Yik 2. Do. 3. Tray 4. Char 5. Punj . 6. Cheh 7. Sat 8. Ath 9. Nou.10. Das 11. Da tay Yik. 12 DaTayDo same pattern upto 20 which pronounced as Vih. Before 1970 maximum counting unit used was 20 or with with multiplications of 20 and it was called as Vi’aan. Like “Da- Vi’aan =100, “Main Cheh Vi’aan na Dand ghida aye” I have bought an Ox for 120. “Main Chali , Do Vi’aan ni waich-san” I will sell my goat for 40.. another similarity in Awan numerical table was term of reduction from more to less like Das ghat Sao =90 Which seems word to word translation of Pashtu numbral Las–kamay Sal Pashtu Numberals 1.Yu 2. Doa. 3. Thray. 4.Chalur 5. Pinja 6. Shpez. 7.Owa. 8. Atah. 9. Naha. 10. Las 11.Yu-Las . 12 .Doa –las 13. Thray-las same pattern upto 20 which is pronounced as Shal. Similar like Awankari before 1970 maximum counting unit Used by Pashtun was 20 (Shal) pronounced as “Shala” 21.Yi-wa tay Shal. 22. Do-vi tay shal same pattern goes. 30 (Thresh),40(Chalwish),50(Punjoos),60 (Shpay-ta),70 (Av- Ya),80(At-ya), 90(Las –kamay Sal), 100 (Sal),1000(Zar) Irish Gaelic Connacht Numberal (for Munster dialect need to add Ah at the start of each numberal) 1. he-on 2. Doe 5. Teree 4.ka-hir . 5.coo-ig 6. Shay 7.shocked 8.ocked . 9. Knee. 10 .jeh

Chinese numberal.1.Yi.2. Er.3.San 4.Sa 5. Wu. 6.Liu. 7.Qi. 8. Ba 9. Jiu 10. Xi.11. Xi-yi 12. xi-er 13. Xi-san . Same pattern goes upto 20. Er –Xi.30. San-Xi 40.Sa- Xi Same parrtern goes upto 100 – Yi –Bai 200- Er–Bai same pattern goes upto 1000 which is called “Yii – Qian” 10000 is called Yi Wan and 1000000 is Yi Bai Wan It is pertinent to note Chinese numberal written form almost match with Hindo Brahami numberal system used in India during 1st century CE. . Devanagari Numberal . Below is a list of the Indian numerals in their modern Devanagari form, their Sanskrit pronunciation,1. Yika 2. Dvi 3. tri. 4. Catur 5. Panka 6. Sas 7. Sapta 8. Asta 9. Nova 10. Daha. Sindhi Numberal 1. Hiku 2. ba 3. ti. 4. Care 5. Panja 6. chaha 7. Sata 8. Atha 9. Nava 10. Daha. Arabic numberals1.Wahid 2.Ith-nane.3.Thalatha.4.Arba’a 5.Khamsa 6.Sitta 7.Seba 8.Tha-man-iya.9.Tissa’a.10.Asharra. Persian Numberal1.Yak 2. Do 3. Se. 4. Chahar 5. Panj 6. Shesh 7. Haft 8. Hasht 9. Noh 10. Dah

One can easily find that Pashtu Numberal are more close to Hindko numberals as compare to persian and hindu Devanagri Numberalsregards Zarrigul (talk) 20:01, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Awan Wedding Customs and cultural events

Major Population of Awan resides in Attock, Chakwal, Jehlam, Sargodha and Khushab district but they have scattered all over Pakistan and every city they have existance. Ludi , Ghumer (Kumher), Barballa stick dance are famous wedding dances.some place ghumer is called as Bhangra wheres Bhangra is much difference in rythem as compare to Ghumer. kabadi, Kaudi , Tent pegging and bull race are the common events of festivals . Here under few links are pasted for the readers who find interest to see in the customs of Awan's. Below videos are living evidence which proves that Awan culturally are close to Baluch and Pashtuns for their dances and wedding customs. Culture of Gujranwala and lahore divisions got influence by Sikh culture (Do-Aaba) after Sikh rule but Culture of Awankari does not got influences because of majority Awan polulation in the Area. Sikh cultural videos are also available on youtube to compare

Luddi Awan dance at Malik Nasir wedding http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8HkDTvPEX8&feature=related khaid and luddi at iknlas pindi gheb http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PI1ZU2Me2Y&feature=related My favourite Sammi dance video mostly performed at Rawalpindi and Jehlum and Kashmir http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVRYXWQ_xeg&feature=related. Barballa Khaid at Kisran Basal Jand http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SDL3qunpuY Barballa ehsan wedding Attock http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPqsHh5uPKU&feature=related gujar khan luddi http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BeBsNj8Pc7E&feature=related

Best Sammi dance tunes http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUF5oBSvUGM&feature=related.

Sammi wedding dance http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDPPnu4Chvw&feature=related.

Raja Ashraf Mirwal Kahal Jand Awan Wedding Barballa http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dHqJo1m45Q&feature=related.

Kahal Jand Awan wedding Barballa http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecEcCGRR7yg&feature=related.

Wedding malik Attique Potohar http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnjKH5eEF8w&feature=related. sammi http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qe-A5foO3oM&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qThN9TQGRLI&feature=related

Wedding song potohar http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MntX4tCX9mc&feature=related. Barballa ludi pindigheb http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CiubF0Ycs7A pindigheb http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKO2XwvDDNY&feature=related Fateh Jang wedding http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0-5d9yj-RA Ghummer at malik nasir wedding http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRPV_ILtK7g. soon valley ghammer http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMw2PgNjJfA&feature=related chakwal ghummer luddi http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZSWKRgayJU Hindko g Kumher at Hazara http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zs1pabS4SSk&feature=related. wedding ludi at malakwal http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ofcmZgKvcg luddi ghummer mianwali http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZbom5Cwpik&feature=related

Hindki kumher Hazara http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-I6Z_qFieo&feature=related. hazara kuhmer http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKDzqBhUPrE

Stick Dance http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldn5lS9eZDQ&feature=related. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKDzqBhUPrE&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2C1RyYiQjg&feature=related

Bull race at Basal http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-iyRRq5AwM&feature=related.

Bull race http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJPk9becKYU&feature=related.

Bull race at chakwal http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bfg-Qz0BaIc&feature=related.

Bull race http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FRJc6EhWtE&feature=related. Zarrigul (talk) 20:10, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Response to Averriost, The homeland and cultural hotbed of Awan

I am a rough hillman and a wild mountaineer of Salt Range, and as the blood of Arab Bedouins flows through my veins, I can make you understand in the pure language of real Awans of today”Thanks for introducing yourself. To understand the definition of Salt range and to find it’s centre place you need to let us know from where Salt Range starts and where it ends. Moreover we can get help from dictionery for real mean of Centre. after reaching to a common difination we need to decide that we will focus our debate upto Salt range and have not to add any reference of the areas out of salt range as you already excluded “Pindi Gheb” Attock, Chakwal , Sargodha. And other Districts. “The main homeland and cultural hotbed of real and original Awan tribe is not Pindi Gheb, Attock. Sargodha, Chakwal, and other districts but Salt Range. The more center of Salt Range you will go, the more real Awan as a blood of community, you will find. I’ll discuss the nature and authenticity of British administrators, writers, census reports, Imperial Gazetteer, District Gazetteers, later on, here are some reliable source material for Wikipedia policy, so;”. I don’t know which made you to reach this conclusion to exclude Attock, Chakwal , Sargodha. And other Districts.? Which tribe was living at above mentioned districts during 18th century when a few Colonial Officers were considering Salt range as Hotbed of Awans? “They are essentially a tribe of the Salt Range, where they once held independent possessions of very considerable extent, and in the western and central portions of which they are still the dominant race.” (The Imperial Gazetteer of India, Vol. 7, p. 170), "The home of the Awan in the Panjab is the Salt Range", The Panjab, North-West Frontier Province and Kashmir - James Douie Page 105. "The best of the Musalman tribes comes from thje Salt range".The Armies of India By A. C. Lovett, Major, Gf Macmunn, Page 141 "Salt Range was the main habitat of Awans". History of the Sikh gurus: a comprehensive study by Surjit Singh Gandhi p.2. If Awan tribe was living and enjoying majority at campbellpur (Attock), Chakwal, Sargodha, Jehlum during 18th century then why just Salt range became Hotbed? There should be some logical reason for exclusion. This conclusion is merely based on incorrect information provided to them along with other stories. "They settled about 1035, AD in the Peshawar district, and eventually became possessed of the Salt Range country." A short history of the Sikhs by Charles Herbert Payne - 1970, p.234This is again contradictions. What was the time of their move to Salt range? And what about them who kept staying at Peshawar/Hazara? “Awans are said to have settled in the mountains in the centre of what is now Soon Valley and Sakesar, …………………………………With the passage of time and the force of economic pressure, they then spread from that region into Mianwali, Chakwal, Campbelpur now Attock, Mianwali, Jehlum, Sargodha, Rawalpindi, lahore Gujrat and all parts of Punjab.”To discuss this passage we have to understand the War Terminology of with drawl.which mean coming back to original position . So it will simply mean that Awan’s were occupying that place in the past as well. But still population census itself deny that claim when we Compare the population of Awan’s at district Campbellpur, Jehlum, Chakwal and Rawalpindi with the Population of Awan;s living at Salt Range. Salt Range keep 1/4th of total Awan population with in Awankari how to ignore ¾ population of Awankari? “So far as the Awan of Jalandhar are concerned, Ibbetson, D states in his book Punjab Castes, that the Awans of Jalandhar claimed that their ancestors served in the armies of…………………. keeping up at the same time their connection with their Jalandhar homes.” Ibbetson, D., 2001, Punjab Castes, Sang-e-Meel Publications, p.170.)” Khilji Pashtuns Salateen were earlier than Baber it makes Awan Pashtun connection as claimed by Zarrigul . another source which also nullify the arab origin claim http://www.indiasite.com/delhi/history/altamash.html. quote from link “So, the first thing he did was to crush the highhanded Qutbi and Muizzi Maliks and the governors of Multan” Qutbi and Muizzi here probably mean Qutab Shahi and Muizzi seems as Niazi . this source consider them Maliks with out mentioning them Awan. Atleast that source was considering Niazi and qutab shahi as the same race people “So, instead of giving advice to Rawalpindi Express, to go to Kalabagh, (I’ll discuss the Awans of Kalabagh later on) Please go yourself to center of Salt range a………you will find the real Awans and their customs, and traditions”. I agree with Zarrigul opinion as I Have been there a lot of time between 1990-2003. I was a frequent travellor to the area (Khushab, Lillah town, Chashma and Qabul khan project) for my business. To reach Chashma/Mianwali I used to cacth night bus for khushab and early morning move to Chasha. I know the culture well. No one there perform Sikh style Bhangra there. Other customs are common with Awan’s of Talagang and Chakwal. “There you will find that the whole structure of the tribe stands on the tribal genealogies of the Awans of this area,……... Every Awan of Naushera of Salt Range knows that he is a descendant of Hazrat Qutb Shah Awn ibn Ya‘lā through his grandson Hazrat Ahmad Ali Badr ud Din’ elder son Hazrat Saned ul Ulema, and he also knows that his distant cousins of Khabeki are desendants of Badr ud Din’ other son Hazrat Toor, and so on. A complete family tree of whole branch of Awans of Khabeki has been given in this small book. To quote your favorite author Sir Olif caroe, "These tribal tables, or shajras as they are called in Islamic lore, do represent something real. “If you consider them real. Try to write down a single family tree of Qutab shah connection with Hazrat Ali K.W) I promise to prove it untrue “.Please try to read this link as some sources claim that before Awan’s Salt range was owned by Khokhat and Khemat Hindo http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khokhar#Qutb_Shahi_view “Instead of seeing you tube videos of marriages of Maliks of other districts,………………….. So there is no concept of dance of any kind in pure and noble families of Awan.”You mean if some malik family perform dance on wedding fuction they are not considered noble? Actually this was mentality which isolated the individuals who get married with local Hindu girls. Not only the Awan’s but Gakhar’s, Niazi’s, Jadoon, Tarin, Tanoli’s and Baluch of D.G. Khan/Behawalpur got isolated and disowned by their respective major tribes. This changed their language but they did not adopted the Hindo culture. Today their culture is same which with ancestral tribes except the language. Regards Alamsherkhan (talk) 18:22, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

From where Awans are and the eradication of confussion

Awans in arabic means helper and defender. hazrat ali had 18 children but their descendants continuesed by hasan, hussain, muhammad ibn hannafiya, umer al atraf and abbass. Hasan, hussain got title of sayyid and remaining are called awan because at many incidents hazrat ali advised their children other than sayyid as you are helper and defender (awan) of sayyids. But in south asia awan claim that they are from qutab shah and i want you to aware that qutab shah is not a name it is title name there were two qutab shah one was aon from hazrat abbas clain and other was qutab haider from hazrat muhammad ibn hannafiya from herat afghanistan both got title of qutab shah. Aon qutab shah came south asia to preach and qutab haider(title"qutab shah") came with ghaznavi to fight with hindus. So both qutab shah descendants called themselves as qutab shahi awan. As awan married hindu womens and many awan started added their mother name for example rajput but awans are not from rajput's so there is a little number of awans who use rajput word and call them as awan's. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.153.57.104 (talk) 07:35, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Zarrigul (talk) 14:02, 19 July 2011 (UTC) Salam. I would be obliged if could write complete family tree from Hazrat Ali (KW)to Qutab Shah. as this evidence could help to correct many fake claims regards

Zarrigul, without meaning to sound rude, your latest contributions to this discussion are, by and large, muddled and incoherent. Moreover, I honestly do not have the time to respond to your latest assertions - the fact is, you are repeating the same argument, time and time again (and in the process, proffering irrelevant and outlandish theories – of your own making) yet you fail to realise that what you are presenting as "facts" are nothing more than your own opinions, based on nothing more than your own personal observations (many of which are erroneous. Believe me, you really are confused when it comes to the culture and socio-political history of the Punjab and its various communities – and I’m telling you that as a Punjabi - and there are points I have made about the reality of cross-cultural ties, migratory and linguistic patterns, and the evolution of cultural practices, that you continually fail to grasp) - this simply will not suffice if your claims are to be taken seriously. Not only are your opinions highly unorthodox, there doesn't exist a single historical or anthropological study that substantiates your bizzarre claims - and therein lies the problem; you are unable to cite a single source that supports your misguided views vis-a-vis the Awan tribe. More importantly, as desperate as you are to portray the Awans as an Afghan sub-clan, there is one incontrovertible fact that you have to contend with – the majority of Pashtuns do not acknowledge any ethnic ties with the Awan tribe, and reference can be made to numerous studies that bear out this fact. As for you attempting to establish a link between the Awans and the ancient Israelites (and by extension, Chinese Jews!) to say that this claim of yours is far-fetched, is an understatement (and as I pointed out before, not only do I have a fairly solid grasp of Judaism, I have been interacting with members of the Jewish community since I was a child, and continue to do so). Above all, you are now bordering on the arrogant and offensive – quite frankly, who are you to lecture an Awan about the customs of his tribe, and inform him that he holds mistaken views in relation to this topic? Let me make it clear, that by virtue of being an Awan, and someone whose family continues to keep alive many of our traditions, I have a better understanding of the ways of my people than you ever will (if a neutral observer wanted to gain further knowledge regarding this subject, would they approach you, or me?). Who or what gives you the right to declare that an individual who looks upon himself/herself as a Punjabi, is wrong to do so, because he or she is from Potohar and not Majha? Besides you not comprehending the perfectly rational reasons for Potoharis choosing to identify themselves as Punjabis, are you now going to dictate something as complex and personal as self-identity to others? Furthermore, I do not appreciate your nonsensical and presumptuous remarks regarding me not being willing to Google what you have asked me to, in order to validate your claims – contrary to what you maintain, what you asked me to Google (and what you have now provided YouTube links to) does nothing to support your contentions, and I have already elaborated on why this is so (oh, and just so you know, I have already viewed videos of the nature you have made reference to, on numerous occasions, and have witnessed a number of these spectacles when visiting Pakistan). I have chosen not to answer your questions regarding Kalabagh, because I am unable to find the answers on Wikipedia? Actually, I have chosen not to answer said questions, because of your initial rude retort when this specific subject came up, which led me to conclude that I owe you no explanations whatsoever (and I don’t. As it is, what you have to say, still bears no relevance to the heart of the matter). My relatives have never visited Kalabagh? Prove it – if you can’t, then don’t embarrass yourself by pursuing such a juvenile mode of debate. For each matter, I rely on my friends and relatives as sources? For your information, firstly, looking to the example of my friends and family who are Awans, in order to discuss issues relating to the Awans, is not only valid, but entirely logical. Secondly, I happen to hold a degree in History and Politics from the School of Oriental and African Studies (University of London), and I specialised in South Asia – whilst I was there, I also had access to what is arguably the finest and most comprehensive library in Europe as far as the study of the Indian Subcontinent is concerned, and over the course of three years, I spent much of my spare time conducting private research into the history of my tribe and the Punjab (using source material both from the past and present, authored by Western and Eastern authors alike) – therefore, I can present my own independent opinions, based upon solid knowledge of the subject matter being discussed; as such, please keep your opinions regarding me to yourself, because you don’t know what you’re on about. Oh, and I never said that the bhangra is the only dance that the Awans perform, nor did I, as you falsely claim, even make an attempt to force any such point on you or others – what you have to say in this respect is patently untrue, in fact, I previously stressed that the bhangra is just one of a variety of dances that the Awan tribe performs (and I made this point in a particular context, prompted by one of just many incorrect claims you have made). Unlike you, I am actually willing to concede that the various sections of my tribe, will adhere to a variety of linguistic and cultural customs (which encompasses dance), in keeping with the practices of the respective region each of these groups belongs to. Unlike you, neither do I belittle or devalue these varying customs, because unlike you, I am not attempting to delineate what constitutes so-called “mainstream” Awan culture. And unlike you, I do not indulge in (unfounded and mistaken) generalisations.

Taking all of the above into account, the fact that there are more pressing concerns I need to address, and because I do not want to repeat the same arguments, as far as I am concerned, our debate is redundant. Good luck trying to get others to accept your wacky views – I for one am not going to waste my time arguing in support of points that reflect the reality of the situation as far as my tribe is concerned, and that plenty of academic studies recognise. I have no problem in accepting that people hold differences of opinion when it comes to a wide array of issues – it’s something I welcome and respect, and I am even willing to engage in debate with those I don’t agree with (and in the process, potentially learn something of value); however, your approach to this discussion, despite me having been perfectly civil, leaves a lot to be desired, and thus, I have nothing further to say on the matter.

Rawalpindi Express (talk) 03:32, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

My Suggestion was “Have you ever been to Kala Bagh? If you never been there please google it. It is on the westren Bank of Indus.river. Awan tribe area starts from eastren side of indus river. No doubt Awan are best warriors and best in Marshal races. Why their Headquater Kalabagh is surrounded by Khattak’s from three sides and the river on the east . it is quitely isolated from main Awan tribe population. Is it a mistake? I never can imagine that a leader of marshal race could built his fort at Place where he don’t feel safe. Marshal's never built their Headquarters on front line or among enemies.” Your reply to my claim quota “A further example that perfectly illustrates this, are the claims you make about the location of the headquarters of the Kalabagh dynasty – the nexus you make between this and the reputation of the Awans as a ‘martial race’, is based entirely on supposition (and I have no need to Google the details of Kalabagh. Besides having read plenty of source material in relation to the region and its connection with the Awan tribe, relatives of mine who regularly visit the place, have told me much about its geography and history, as well as showing me pictures of trips they’ve made there).” unquoteThe information on internet for Kalabagh and Baghochi Mahaz which proves that Kala bagh don’t have direct link with Awankari. Google map confirm it on western bank and Majority Awan tribes are living too far from Kala Bagh. http://www.maplandia.com/pakistan/punjab/mainwali/kalabagh/ Wikipedia information regarding Kalabagh do confirm my claim. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalabagh Now what left to prove? This is enough evidence that your relatives never visited KalaBagh otherwise they may be knowing that to reach KalaBagh have to cross Bridge at Marri Indus . As it is located on the westren Bank of Indus. Political vote bank of Nawab of Kalabagh was his Khattak , Niazi . After his death, those people gradually lost the respect for Nawab family because of Bad behaviour ot Nawab Son’s children. The death of a child lead people to form Baghochi Mahaz. More than one decade Nawab Kalabagh family was unable to move freely as local people had setup position on hills to chase their movement. Later a son of Nawab got killed by Baghochi Mahaz and during Farooq Lughari role leader of Baghochi Mahaz Sarmast Khan was taken over by CIA , who died in CIA custody at lahore fort. Now situation is calm down as some elders arranged peace treaty among both parites. Sarmast khan who was a simple brick kiln owner at Pindi gheb all of sudden became popular among people of Kalabagh but this simple information your relatives don’t have. “I’m telling you that as a Punjabi - and there are points I have made about the reality of cross-cultural ties, migratory and linguistic patterns, and the evolution of cultural practices, that you continually fail to grasp) “- As explained earlier I do agree with existance of individual migrations, till today thousand of Awan’s are living at India,(16-20000 according to a website of indian Awan’s) They have adopted local languages, they are Awan and will remain Awan irrespective which language they speak.. My simple argument is that they have choice to adopt any language or culture but what they do will considered at activity of individual and one cant say 4 Million Awan living in Awankari do similar. Regarding cross cultural ties are always possible but we can’t see it in Awan’s living at Potohar and KPK. Awan’s speak in a single “Indko” dialect which is quite different then punjabi, and Saraiki dialects. Awan’s even influenced Jadoon’s, Tanoli’s , Tahir Kheli’s, Mashwani and Tarin Pashtun tribe and today they speak Hindo or some tribes are bi-langual. Khattak tribe is 1/3 in population as compared to Awan’s . I don’t think a minority could influence a majority with whom Awan share border at some points. “Above all, you are now bordering on the arrogant and offensive – quite frankly, who are you to lecture an Awan about the customs of his tribe, and inform him that he holds mistaken views in relation to this topic?” Many of the references made on this page comes from the books of British Officer and are being accepted as it is and more over you are using them as evidence. Why you don’t have same question for their finding? Is it not a complex. One report Awan’s as Rajput clan but another consider them successors of Arabs. Being Son of soil I have right to find logical answers when some of their findings are contradicting with living evidences. “ Who or what gives you the right to declare that an individual who looks upon himself/herself as a Punjabi, is wrong to do so, because he or she is from Potohar and not Majha?”I don’t have right and similarly they don’t have right to change the meanings of geographical terms. Punjab , Potohar, Cholistan, Hazara, Thar and Sindh are not castes or Races but simply geographical terms. The people today living within boundaries of that geographical area or if they lived in those areas in past , can claim that identities. “Furthermore, I do not appreciate your nonsensical and presumptuous remarks regarding me not being willing to Google what you have asked me to, in order to validate your claims – contrary to what you maintain, what you asked me to Google (and what you have now provided YouTube links to) does nothing to support your contentions”I know where “living cultural evidences” exists which support my claims. To verify these claims need physical visits to those areas which seems difficult for you , As you claim to live at U.K .So another options to verify the claim is through personal or family videos for cultural events uploaded by people of those areas . It seems uncivilized and nonsensical approach to close the doors for any new information which is readily available from any source. “Oh, and I never said that the Bhangra is the only dance that the Awans perform, nor did I, as you falsely claim”Hereunder i copy your reply to me on 12th july 2011 “However, as someone who belongs to an Awan family from beyond Gujrat district, let me assure you that it is the Bhangra we perform at weddings (or any other occasion we have reason to celebrate) and not the Khattak dance (this also applies to the majority of Awans I know). In fact, in terms of identity and culture, we (and the majority of Awans my family knows) are as Punjabi as they come.”Below I am pasting 3 links of Bhangra Punjabi version and let us wait if someone from Awan majority population district come with claim that they perform this kind of Bhangra (I would suggest that witness must leave his land line number for comfirmation) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BxMMQs-6nQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKoE41mZ3Fg&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6-sqnBjYkI&feature=related these above type of Bhangrra don’t have any resemblance with the dances performed by Awan’s at Attock, Rawalpindi, Chakwal, Jehlum, Sargodha, Hazara and Khushab if we some where they name their dance as Bhangra that is merely Ludi rythem. “I for one am not going to waste my time arguing in support of points that reflect the reality of the situation as far as my tribe is concerned, and that plenty of academic studies recognise”Where is the academic study? Are you talking about crap arranged by copy and paste trough surfing internet which differs with each other reported by colonial officer and later stereo type repeatition . This is my point , all those claims need a academic study in depth to evaluate them and find answers to contradictions.

regards Zarrigul (talk) 14:12, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

i have given shajrah's at the end of main page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.153.60.17 (talk) 14:56, 23 July 2011 (UTC)