Talk:Avril Lavigne/Archive 1

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"Avril is only 21, but she must be extremely worldly because on Wikipedia there is a whole section on 'early life.'" — New York Daily News, Feb. 9, 2006

Press accounts frequently credit her, along with singers Vanessa Carlton and Michelle Branch, with bringing a new sense of earnestness and genuine creativity to an often vacuous and pre-fabricated teen pop music market. Whilst her marketing has been every bit as sophisticated as, for instance, Britney Spears and her counterparts, a profile in the Washington Post found her to be genuine and, if anything, something of a wide-eyed innocent, citing the fact that she was intending to purchase her first Ramones CD. In another interview, she listed her current listening tastes as including Blink 182, Sum 41,

and System of a Down - more the tastes expected of a contemporary teenage music fan than an actual artist. - Is this NPOV? -- Zoe

I love her new CD because she talks about real issues like she wanted to do. I liked her other CD because it was quite the same. Well I don't think she is a poser like everyone else because me and her act the same and I am not a poser even if people say I am. So I believe her and if she wants to do this it is her own god damn business.

--69.241.173.169 00:41, 28 January 2006 (UTC) yeah i HATE her. i USED to like her but she just seems to talk out of her ASS. dumb poser!

has unique ability to rhyme boy with boy

Actually she's rhyming boy (with a "y") with boi (with an "i"), so it's really rather clever.

Punk or Not?

"I hate it when people say I'm not a true punk. I don't go around calling myself punk; I never have. That's what people need to know -- it's not me saying that, it's the media. I'm a rocker."

- Avril Lavigne

Actually I have don't much against her but one big thing, I do have against her is that she is constantlysaying she is a pop punker.

Let me be the first to inform you there is no such thing as a pop punker.

You may thing bands like Sum41 has said in an interview with spin that they are not punk rock. 

She wouldn't be a posuer, if she didn't claim she was a punk rocker. She definitly proved she wasn't when in interview she had said "Forget the old stuff, the clash and the Ramones, I'm the new punk rock" and thats why many claim she is a poseur.

Granted she's doing well for an artist and should be commend for breaking out of the typical tenny bobber.

She still a liar and she in it for the money, like everyone in the pop bussiness. --Starliteentity17

Where has Avril ever said that she is punk? That is just a label that the media has created for her. Until you can site a source with a quote, I know only the opposite to be true. On an ABC Family TV Special on her, she says, "I'm not a punk rocker" and "I don't walk around calling myself punk." She goes on to explain that she is "just a rock chick" and likes to "rock out." --Nabber00 19:14, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Myah. The record company put that label on her, and the media saw that it sold, so they said she was punk all the time too. They're not too interested in writing about when Avril denies she never said she was punk either. --Joakim

Well I think that this quote sums it all doen't it? "And if she takes all this time trying to label all of her music, she probably isn't what she says she is, cause she has to prove everything through her clothes. Your personality should come from the music you create, and if you are that pathetic to keep on classifying it, might as well forget it." --Starliteentity17

Where does that quote come from? Does that mean you think she is really a punk rocker? If she "isn't what she says she is," doesn't that mean that she can't be a punk rocker according to your unsubstantiated quote? One of those two statements must be false, which is it? --Nabber00 05:01, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

"I created Punk for this day and age. Do you see Britney walking around wearing ties and singing punk? Hell no. That's what I do. I'm like a Sid Vicious for a new generation." Avril Lavigne (Seventeen Magazine, 2002) This quote pretty much confirms it. --TheEye5000

I'm almost 110% positive that if you mentioned sid and nancy, she'd ask you if you were talking about crazy town without a clue as to why.

That quote is made up by the record company. Avril Lavigne has never said that herself. --Joakim

"I don't think I'm punk," the Canadian phenom says during a phone interview from New York City. "It really pisses me off when I have labels placed on me like that. People are stupid for doing that, because I'm not punk. It's my pet peeve now." Boston Herald, May 21, 2004 http://theedge.bostonherald.com/musicNews/view.bg?articleid=28709&format= --Nabber00 06:39, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I'm I the only one who knows that Lavigne did not write her songs in "Let Go" and that the new cd is the first showcase of lavigne's songwriting?Lenore

Lenore, according to the CD booklet, she co-wrote the majority of the songs with the pop songwriters known as "The Matrix." Can anyone clarify this? --Thorns Among Our Leaves 23:38, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Avril did in fact state many times that she was a punk, that she was the new Sid Vicious, etc. She claimed to be punk im YM magazine in 2001. She was also head cheerleader at her high school and dropped out in junior year. What a great role-model. I have more info about her at Anti-Avril

You do realize that being "a punk" is much different from creating punk music, right?

That she dropped out is true, very true. The punk and cheerleader part are all lies. And creating an anti-avril site is just pathetic. You're just jealous. --Joakim

- Your link is dead. "I never once said I was punk. I'm just a really strong, opinionated person." - April 3, 2005 [1] --Nabber00 07:17, 8 May 2005 (UTC)

Before anyone even tries to say that Avril Lavigne's music can be considered punk rock I recommend they read what categories music as punk rock. --gimmepunkorelse

The category of her music is pop/rock, not punk rock.

Avril Redirect

Why does "Avril" redirect here? Avril is french for the month of april, and has many more meanings than some pop singer.. Disambiguation page much?

Change it then. Dismas

Song Title Capitalization

Some idiot is desperately trying to change the "With" in "I'm With You" to "with", just so that it fits proper English style. It seems, even though I've told him that Avril wanted a capital W (just like Green Day wanted a small "o" in "Boulevard of Broken Dreams"), he is trying to lower-case it anyway.

There's a serious problem going on here. DrippingInk 15:33, 7 May 2005 (UTC)

1. Read Wikipedia:No personal attacks. I've already pointed you toewards this.
2. You've provided no evidence for your claim that lavigne wanted a capital, though I've provided you with a long list of links to sites in which the "with" isn't capitalised.
3. In any case, it's not only proper English style, but also Wikipedia style not capitalise preositions in titles (which why "Boulevarde of Broken Dreams" is perfectly correct). Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 15:50, 7 May 2005 (UTC)

I am also in favor of uppercase "With", but Mel has previously said it's non-negotiable because correct English style isn't a democratic thing. Everyking 18:55, 7 May 2005 (UTC)

It's more that following Wikipedia style isn't a matter of choice. If you want to argue that the MoS should be chaged, that's another matter (though I'd strongly argue against a change). DrippingInk (talk · contribs) first claimed that he'd checked "hundreds of grammar and spelling books" whicjh supported his view. Having his bluff called, he retreated to the claim that this is how Lavigne wants it spelt; that's not only unproved, but it doesn't explain his attempts similarly to change every other relevant title in the articles that he edits. He then started pesonal attacks on me, including blanking my User page. It's not clear where he'll retreat to next (after his block is lifted). Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 19:00, 7 May 2005 (UTC)

This is a simple issue, we just list the song names as they appear on the CD case, if that isn't accurate, I don't know what is. In this case, the 'with' is uppercase. --Nabber00 06:42, 8 May 2005 (UTC)

So I just pulled down my copy of Blue Man Group's Audio. All the song titles are in all caps. So, by your reasoning, should all the song titles on that article for that CD be in all caps? Dismas 02:28, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

I might be willing to consider that a special case, but even so, that still doesn't address the issue of a definitive source for the information. If you look at the Blue Man Group's website it also lists the song titles in all caps, so I would be inclined to think that the intent is to have them all capital.--Nabber00 07:05, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

CD cases frequently contain mistakes — sometimes small, sometimes large. There are often discrepancies between usage on different parts of the insert, or between the insert and the label, or between both and other appearances on reissues or compilations, or between the CDs and printed music, etc. The one thing that we know for certain is what standard English style is, which is why it's best and safest to use it. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 11:29, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

That is not the case here, you are referring to special cases not relevant to this discussion. Both the insert and case match the capital W, so I doubt its a mistake. All of the reputable websites that I can find use the capital W (probably because that is how it appears on the album). I agree it is safe to use English convention, but it is not necessarily correct, as in this case. By emphasizing standards over correctness, we jeopordize the credibility of Wikipedia.--Nabber00 17:12, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

Thank you people! Thank you, thank you, thank you! I love each and every one of you!

Let me get one thing straight here: I am a musician. I don't seem like one, I know, but I certainly am. I am also a songwriter. It may be "incorrect English", but that doesn't matter. Song titles have always been capital (as well as "Spice Up Your Life") and just because it doesn't match the English-style, it is by far extremely correct.

Very nice of you to say that CD cases contain mistakes - this would mean that each and every single one of them do.

From this point forward, the "W" will be capital, and not small. Before you came along, it was capital, and it had been the entire time. Your presence is not going to change that. Plus, why do you consist in changing the Under My Skin single style back to the poorly typed one? You created the other one, and it should be just like that one, because I think it is very well spread out.

However, like I mentioned before, the "W" is going to be capital from this moment on.

And don't think that you saying the picture being a violation is going to help you on Wikipedia. The source I provided clearly states that Avril Lavigne was on MuchMusic, and just to make you look like the fool you are, here is the link: [2]

Au revior. DrippingInk 13:46, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

Some of the above is too fractured for me to follow, and some is simply wrong, but with regard to the picture — I'm aware of the source; you stated the source on the image page; now you need to follow your own link and check the Legal information about copyright at the bottom of that page. You are not in a position to say that it's fair use; it comes from a Web site which claims copyright. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 16:28, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

Of course it's too fractured for you to follow. You just choose to ignore it. And none of it is "simply" wrong. Again, you continue to think you are correct. The "W" will go back to being capital yet again. There is one spot where you seem to show your ignorance in this article. And if you ask me, it's ridiculously funny. 64.231.113.36 17:45, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

Time for a vote to solve this to help prevent locking the page. Right now it looks like the following want capitals as they appear on the album:

• Nabber00 (talk · contribs)
• Everyking (talk · contribs)
• DrippingInk (talk · contribs)

Proper English style:

• Mel Etitis (talk · contribs)
• Dismas (talk · contribs)

If I have your vote wrong, please change it. Also anyone else that has an opinion, please review the debate above and add your name to the vote count.

I agree with having a vote, and that is indeed how I would vote, but I'm afraid it may be pointless if Mel feels it's non-negotiable. But at least it would show who has the majority if it goes to an RfC. Everyking 20:33, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

Voting is fine as a way of helping to gauge consensus, but not on its own; a string of yes/no votes isn't useful — what count are the reasons. (At the moment there's no consensus, of course.)

You see, through dozens of reverts, DrippingInk never claimed that his version was the way the covers had the title, only that he was right, and that hundreds of style and spelling books backed him up, and that I was an idiot, etc. (the history is there on all the Talk pages). You can try to make out that it's just a case of me stubbornly opposing the facts, but it's only recently that anyone has mentioned the supposed facts — and even now no evidence has been offered.

According to the CD reissue of Cat Stevens' Catch Bull at Four, by the way, track 8. is about some Irishman called O'Caritas; it's actually a Latin title, "O Caritas". There are lots of such examples (see also [3], and the ASCAP Titele Search FAQ, according to which a common problem is: "The title may be listed differently on the label of your recording than the way the copyright owner indexed it with ASCAP"); record companies no longer seem to employ copy-editors, and the people who design the covers (and Web sites) are generally not particularly literate. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 22:16, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

I'm confused. We aren't getting anywhere near a consensus by simply stating our reasons. If we don't have a vote how are we supposed know what the consensus is? Also, if we don't know what the consensus is, shouldn't we keep things here on the talk page and not keeping changing the article until some sort of consensus is reached?

I made my statement for my reasoning on this talk page that it should match the album (May 8). No one objected after a few days, so I changed the article referencing the talk page (May 12). Mel Etitis (talk · contribs) immediately reverted my edit with no explaination. Did I not follow some procedure here? If so I'd really like to know so I don't do it again.

Again you are making references to irrelevant issues. The ASCAP database has everything in uppercase, which doesn't help this dispute of capitalization, only spelling. Please stay on the issue at hand.--Nabber00 22:50, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

• I'm not sure that you've understand the notion of consensus; it's not a majority-voting fake-democracy thing.

I guess I misused the term there. My point is that I've given up on us coming to a decision by consensus, so we should try a different approach. Unless anyone has a better suggestion?--Nabber00 03:12, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

• Until consensus is reached here or on Wikipedia Talk:WikiProject_Albums, we should stick to correct English and Wikipedia MoS style.

I agree. I felt I had consensus since no one objected to my comment here. Please explain your reasons when editing the page and continue working toward consensus under talk.--Nabber00 03:12, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

• Try to abstract a little. If song titles on albums can be wrong in one way, they can be wrong in another. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 08:45, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

This is a specific case we are talking about, this is the Avril Lavigne page after all. If you wish to abstract, the MoS pages are the place for that so we don't have to discuss it on every single page like this one.--Nabber00 03:12, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

I think a vote is fine. But I think you guys are going about this all wrong. You're yelling into a barrel when there's a stadium out there. This isn't about Avril Lavigne. It shouldn't be on her talk page. Where it should be is over on the Manual of Style's talk page. Not everyone who is putting song titles in artist pages will be watching A.L.'s page. Most of them probably don't care about A.L. more than likely... Take this discussion where it's better suited. As far as my "vote": I was simply following what the MoS says. So if you don't like my edit, take it up with the MoS. Dismas 00:21, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, I'd rather not disrupt and entire stadium if I can stick to a barrel. But in any case I added a talk section to Project Albums about it, so have at it.--Nabber00 03:50, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

Request for page protection - Mel Etis and DrippingInk, this is for you...

I have added Avril Lavigne to Wikipedia:Requests_for_page_protection#Avril_Lavigne. Will you guys please talk about your problems with each other and come to a decision (preferably without the bickering) rather than engaging in a pointless revert war? Kurt Shaped Box 19:20, 15 May 2005 (UTC) 19:20, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

Please see my response to your request. The central issues are not related to capitalisation, but include a number of copyvio images up-loaded and added to various articles (including this one) by DrippingInk (talk · contribs). Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 19:22, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

Our argument has been solved. Get over it. DrippingInk 01:28, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

"Take Me Away"?

I did not hear anything about "Take Me Away" being released as a single. Unless someone can explain this, it will be removed from the article. DrippingInk 01:28, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

IIRC, it's being released as a single in Australia. I can't remember where I read that now. Remove it by all means if you wish, until I can find a reliable source for this info... Kurt Shaped Box 21:19, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC) 21:19, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I will do that. DrippingInk 19:48, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

As far as I can remember, somone mentioned it in a post on the avrilbandaids.com forums without actually quoting a source - not exactly the most reliable of information. I guess time will tell as to whether it gets released or not... Kurt Shaped Box 04:59, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC) 04:59, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Avrilbandaids is a very reliable source, since the 50,000+ people there are die-hard Avril fanatics. If you did so read it there, it would be wise to re-add the single release... but you are right. Only time will tell. DrippingInk 15:42, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

In the second paragraph it says she taught herself guitar as a child. But I thought she actually only learned guitar fairly recently? I don't think she knew how to play during the Let Go era, except maybe a little here and there. Everyking 5 July 2005 18:23 (UTC)

/* Avril's B-sides */

Can I add a new section on Avril's b sides? Without anyone reverting it? I see there isnt one here. Banes. 11 July.

Probably no one will revert it, but it might make more sense to add the b-side info on album articles...for instance, "Complicated" b-sides could be discussed on Let Go (Avril Lavigne album), etc. Everyking 10:49, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, I am new to Wiki, ( only joined last week ) so please be patient with me. I am refering to her b-sides totally unrelated to her albums. Avril has written about 8 b-sides,including movie themes, plus one bonus track for each album, perhaps those two bonus tracks should be added to Under My Skin and Let Go. ( Her two albums ) Thanks.Banes

11:38, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

Does "B-side" mean something different here? What is it being used to mean? --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 16:48, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

Usually b-side refers to a song on a single besides the main single track. So I guess what you mean isn't quite the same as that? Just add the info wherever you think is best and it'll probably be fine. Everyking 23:06, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

Since I do not actually know the proper definition of a B-side, I'll just call them miscelaneous tracks and leave it at that.Banes 09:40, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

It's as Everyking says: the A-side and B-sides of LPs and singles refer to the physical sides of the discs. In the case of a single, the main song was on the A-side, and the B-side was often thought of as a filler (though B-sides sometimes became more popular than A-sides). Sometimes, confusingly, when the two songs were released as equally important, the single was referred to as a double A-side (topologically impossible, but metaphorically understandable). --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 11:50, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

Hey, Kurt Shaped Box, thanks for improving the misc. tracks section. However, I havnt heard of the alternative song: "I don't give a shit". Where did that come from? Banes 11:20, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

It was an alternative take of the song originally intended for release on "Let Go" but for some reason never made it to the final pressing. I have it on my 'Let Go - The Avril Lavigne Mix' bootleg (which has alternative versions of most of the songs from her first album. Someone at avrilbandaids.com will probably be able to provide you with an mp3. Interestingly, this is also the version she performs live... Kurt Shaped Box 13:10, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

I've seen her perform the song live. It was quite the piece of music, I must say. DrippingInk 01:31, July 19, 2005 (UTC)

Vocal Profile

I've just moved this here:

+ *Voice Type:

+ *Highest Note: D6 (Mobile) http://www.musicnotes.com/sheetmusic/mtd.asp?ppn=mn0043459&bookmark=1

+ *Lowest Note: G3 (Losing Grip) http://www.musicnotes.com/sheetmusic/mtd.asp?ppn=mn0043458&bookmark=0

+ *Vocal Range: 2.5 octaves

Aside from its being incomplete and incorrectly formatted, it's not clear what the point of it is, and the links don't adequately back up the claims made. An anon has been adding this sort of section to one or two articles (at least), without explanation or discussion. Any comments? --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 11:26, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

Return it to the article. Numerous other artists (including Britney Spears, Céline Dion, Christina Aguilera, Mariah Carey, and Kelly Clarkson) have a vocal profile in their articles, and there was even a comment in the discussion page of Aguilera's article that the profile was highly acceptable to use as long as its source is correct. Besides, I think it's a tremendous addition to the article, as an artists' vocal abilities should be noted if they are (or even if they are not) the greatest singer in the world. Also, I like the section. DrippingInk 01:28, July 19, 2005 (UTC)

The creator has admitted that this (and all the others) are original research. I've asked him to provide external sources, so that it can be put back. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 10:30, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Under My Skin sales

Whomever changed the sales of Under My Skin had better revert them immediately. The LP has sold well over eight million, and not a copy less than seven million. DrippingInk 01:33, July 19, 2005 (UTC)

Youre right, DrippingInk, I also know the sales exceeded 8 million. Change as you see fit if you have not done so already.(Banes 17:11, 21 July 2005 (UTC))

Avril's place of birth?

An anonymous user has recently changed Avril's place of birth from Belleville, Ontario to Napanee. Whilst it is common knowledge that Av *grew up* in Napanee, I am unsure as to which was her actual place of birth (if either). Anyone able to cite verifiable, reliable (i.e. non-fansite message boad) sources? Dispute template added. --Kurt Shaped Box 05:31, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Look, I dont have any hard evidence, but I am an Avril fan and what I have heard all over is that she was born in Belleville. (Banes 21:37, 22 July 2005 (UTC))

I'm a hardcore Avril fan. She was born in Belleville, not Napanee. Revert the bad edits. DrippingInk 00:50, July 23, 2005 (UTC)

Song title

The article had "Born to Loose", which is obviously a typo, but I'm not sure where the mistake is: it could be "Born Too Loose" or "Born to Lose"; I've corrected it to the latter, but if anyone knows better, could they correct me? --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 09:34, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

"Born to Lose". 64.231.116.189 14:36, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Thanks. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 18:15, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Magazine covers...

Is this section really notable? Strikes me as a little bit fancrufty to me. Opinions, please.

I agree. When I tidied it up,I made the same comment in my edit summary. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 16:17, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

I'll give it a few days. If there's no significant objections, I'll go ahead and remove it. --Kurt Shaped Box 19:51, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

I second that, its a bit kitchy having that section there.Banes 11:06, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

Oppose removal—it's notable. Everyking 11:17, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

I don't think that that counts as a significant objection without more explanation or argument. What makes it nortable? Magazines put young, attractive, famous women on their covers — so what? Are there any young female pop-singers who haven't been on lots of magazine covers? That might be notable. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 12:12, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

Notable because of the fame/exposure/importance of the covers. Everyking 13:29, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

Important to whom? I can't imagine anyone who is not a fan being interested in this in the slightest. This sort of thing belongs on an Avril fansite, not in an encyclopedia article. --Kurt Shaped Box 14:12, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps just say that Avril Lavigne has been on many magazine covers, such as (name one or two famous ones). Banes 16:20, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

Or, if we're going to be NPoV: "like all other young, female entertainers, Lavigne has appeared on many magazine covers." --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 17:26, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, that sounds good to me, except that I would say that "..all.." is not quite right. How about:"like many/alot/most of her counterparts/peers......." Just an idea. "all" Sounds a bit funny, Avril Lavigne is a bit more well known than every other young female entertainer on this earth. But it is not that important. Banes 19:20, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

Good point. It could just omit the "all". Of course, it's not clear what the point of adding it is — but if we do add it to Lavigne, then I suppose it will have to be added to all the other articles on well-known young, female entertainers. Perhaps we should create a template... {{:{{{1}}}, like other well-known, young, female entertainers, has appeared on many magazine covers.}} --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 21:07, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

If you're trying to make me laugh, Mel - you succeeded. :) --Kurt Shaped Box 23:25, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

Mission accomplished. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 08:12, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

As it happens, many other personaltities have some magazine credits, but none have a whole list as it is here. Mel, you made me laugh too. But I still see no change to the article, I think Mel's final cut is best. Banes 14:17, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

OK, is that all right? I've removed the section, and added a sentence to the Trivia section. If anyone wants to add as examples the more important(!?) of the appearances, that would be fine, I imagine. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 15:29, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

It looks perfect to me! As for more important mags, I dont know what counts as important really as I dont happen to read any of the ones on the list, somebody else can see to that if they want. The whole trivia section looks very nice now, good work. Banes 20:39, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

Tour dates

This has come up elsewhere. A section devoted to a list of tour dates for a particular year isn't encyclopædic; it's the sort of thing that can and should found on the subject's Web site. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 22:00, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

I have noticed that some other artist's pages have that info, and agree with the above comment. On the other hand, I also see that many artists have a small history of their world tours. Does anyone think that we could have something like that here? Banes 12:18, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

That sounds appropriate to me. If someone with the knowledge could oblige...? --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 17:52, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

I will do a little research if I can, if anyone else could also help out, that would be nice. As far as I know she has done only one world tour (The "Bonez" Tour, I believe). Where do you think that info should go? Banes 19:43, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

Razor Blade Love Affair

Only reference to this I could find on Google was to a song by The Haunted - it's not listed on the BODMAS (who appear to be an obsure garage band) site. Does this song really exist? Did Avril really cover this? --Kurt Shaped Box 10:09, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

Okay, no-one has responded and I have been unable to find any online references to Avril covering this song (only Google hits are this page and various mirrors). I'll give it another week and if no-one raises any objections, I'll remove it. --Kurt Shaped Box 23:20, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

Baby, One More Time.

In response to User:195.93.21.98's addition of this song to the article as one of Avril's covers. I have searched high and low and the only possible reference I could find to this was the fact that Avril sang a couple of lines of the song whilst goofing around during an interview for her live DVD and that Britney (supposedly - according to someone on a fansite, with no source provided) threatened to sue unless the footage was removed. I fail to see how this can be considered a 'live cover' in the strictest sense of the word, which to me implies that she performed the song seriously at one of her gigs. I'd appreciate the opinions of my fellow editors on this matter. --Kurt Shaped Box 23:30, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

If that's all there is I don't think that should count as a live cover. Everyking 03:28, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

That's not all there is. Avril said in an interview with smash hit's magazine that she sang the song a couple of times but Spears stopped her. She covered the song, get over it. I like Avril's music and therefore read the interview in the magaziner as a fan. It's hardly a smear on anything, let's not get petty and let's use this page and the time to deal with real vandalism of articles. 195.93.21.3 19:54, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Britney covers are a vital part of the roxperience. all the best indie punk/pop american bands do it. dunno if she did.

Mexico

Someone added chart numbers for Mexico and they're amazing high to me...are they right? I find it hard to believe she did so well there. Maybe it's a question of using different charts or something. It might be like a separate chart for international music. Everyking 04:12, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

Two things

Hello there wikipedians-who-edit-Avril Lavigne. Two things: One, I thought it was agreed that Avril didnt cover Hit me baby one more time? Should it be there? Two, she is listed under category:Roman Catholics. This isnt that urgent but I have read on a number of fansites (not that reliable, I know) that she is a Baptist. Anyone verifiy these two things? Thanks. Banes 17:26, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

I have no idea as to Avril's religion - I don't remember her ever discussing it. See above as to the 'Baby One More Time' cover. I'm going to be bold and remove it. --Kurt Shaped Box 18:28, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

I heard a vague quote by her somewhere or other referring to her being baptist. Not that urgent, just a category. Glad to see youve been bold and removed that (..one more time) as I saw above that she didnt cover it. Case closed! (Lets hope it doesnt come back.) Banes 21:40, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

"I'm With You"

Someone is making incorrect redirect pages for "I'm With You" to "I'm with You" — that would be correct in any form of English, except for songwriting. So I ask this user to please stop making the incorrect edits. Thank you. Winnermario 01:33, September 13, 2005 (UTC)

I have no idea why Winnermario thinks that songwriting is exempt from normal English, but it isn't — not in general, nor in Wikipedia. He should also stop moving pages by cutting and pasting, which is not allowed. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 10:03, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

french songs

does avril sing any songs in french

Er, no, I dont think she does. Banes 12:00, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Avril Lavigne Links

Hi, I think my website 'The Avrilites' (http://avrilite.tripod.com/) would be a good addition to your link section in Avril Lavigne - would it be possible to do a link exchange?

Sales figures, chart positions, RIAA ratings, etc.

As these figures seem to be subject to regular, significant adjustment (both up and down) by numerous editors without citation of sources, I fear that there may be a serious accuracy problem here. It seems here that every edit of this type is accepted without question and that no-one here is actually checking this out - it would be the easiest thing in the world for a sneaky vandal to tinker with the numbers in bad faith and have the false information go unnoticed for a long period of time. I have little faith that the figures as they stand now have any relevance to the actual sales/chart positions/ratings.

I have been bold and have gone ahead and removed them. I propose that no information of this type is placed in the article, unless the editor can reference a verifiable source. --Kurt Shaped Box 10:30, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

This is a problem with other articles about contemporary singers as well. See Talk:Hilary Duff#Discography section removed. Extraordinary Machine 19:46, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Unless anyone has any objections, I will continue to remove any unsourced data added to the article until such time that someone is actually able to provide accurate, verifiable information. --Kurt Shaped Box 22:07, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Category:Punk rock musicians

Copied from User talk:Gimmepunkorelse:

I notice that you have removed Category:Punk_rock_musicians from the Avril Lavigne article. I have reverted this edit, as the general established consensus amongst editors of this article seems to be that Lavigne does belong in this category. If you feel that this is incorrect, feel free to open a discussion on the article's talk page explaining your reasoning for this. --Kurt Shaped Box 10:58, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

I removed Category:Punk_rock_musicians from the Avril Lavigne article because it is incorrect. The general established consensus is wrong if they believe this to be correct and the editors of this article seem to have little to no knowledge of the category. There is already a discussion on the article's talk page on this subject that you have obviously not taken a look at. So that you can be more knowledgeable on what punk really is, you should read over some of the information on punk. -Gimmepunkorelse 21:53, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

I have read the discussion at Talk:Avril Lavigne, which seems to consist of a series of POV 'I hate Avril, she sucks and is a poseur' type comments, as well as a list of quotations where Lavigne has stated that she considers herself 'punk'. She also seems to be frequently described in the media as 'punk' - though there is some controversy regarding the issue (as already covered in the 'Criticism' section of the main article). I believe that because of this (and because 'punk' can mean a lot of differnt things to a lot of different people) it is correct to list her as a 'punk rock musician', with the 'Criticism' section summing up the other side of the debate to provide impartiality. Consensus amongst the various people who contibute to this article seems to bear this out. As I have already mentioned, if you feel that this is wrong, feel free to raise the issue at Talk:Avril Lavigne. --Kurt Shaped Box 22:24, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

I have also read the discussion at Talk:Avril Lavigne and I believe it is composed mostly of unintelligent comments with quotes that are not cited. I agree with you that punk means different things to different people but this is not a discussion on what the populous believe punk to be. The topic that this concerns is what categorizes music as punk. Punk as a genre is defined as having lyrics that often consist of strong political or social protest as well as having a fast, aggressive, and raw sound. Also note that punk is an anti-establishment movement. How can Avril Lavigne be categorized as a punk rock musician when her music clearly does not fit under this category and she participates in this mainstream establishment? -Gimmepunkorelse 03:25, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

By that same logic, you should be going around removing the 'punk' references from every 'pop punk' band, or any 'punk' band signed to a major label that has an article on Wikipedia. 'Punk' is not a genere of music - 'punk' is 'music created by punks'. There is no typical 'punk sound' (or at least there shouldn't be), as punk is supposed to be about ignoring the rules, not simply choosing to accept another set. As I have stated before, there is a paragraph in the main article itself - in the Avril_Lavigne#Image_and_personal_life section (someone moved a few things around last night) which addresses your point of view and criticisms (you could expand on that, if you wished). Continuing to remove Lavigne from the 'punk rock musicians' category introduces bias into the article. --Kurt Shaped Box 13:14, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

I am not going around removing the 'punk' references from every 'pop punk' band, or any 'punk' band signed to a major label, I am removing incorrect references to artists that are listed as punk as well as increasing the information on punk and punk artists. "'Punk' is not a genere of music - 'punk' is 'music created by punks'." I can agree with you on that and since us both find that to be true her music is not punk since she is not a punk. Categorizing information is not putting a set of rules into effect but instead putting common characteristics of an area together for organizational purposes. Continuing to add Lavigne to the 'punk rock musicians' category introduces your bias into the article since you are just a fan. My removing of Avril Lavigne from this category is not bias since I am knowledgeable on the topic of punk. -Gimmepunkorelse 20:43, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Lavigne has publicly stated that she considers herself to be a punk - that's good enough for me. It is your opinion that she is not. Personal opinions have no place in Wikipedia article - this is not the place to argue about whether Lavigne is a fake/poser/etc. Also, please do not make assumptions about me and my motives for editing. --Kurt Shaped Box 21:28, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Lavigne stated that she is punk does not make her one. It is ignorant for anyone to believe that stating that you are something makes you it. For example, if I stated that I was of another race it would not make me that race. I am not putting my opinion in this article or stating that Lavigne is a "fake/poser/etc", I am merely fixing the error that she is incorrectly categorized as a punk rock musician. I am sorry for assuming that you are a fan of Avril Lavigne, I had you confused with another user that had Avril Lavigne under a list of artists that he/she liked. -Gimmepunkorelse 21:40, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

A white person (for example) stating that they were black would be a ludicrous, easily-refutable statement. A person stating that they are a member of a particular subculture is not. You could state that you believe that Lavigne is not punk until you are blue in the face — you cannot prove that she is not. It's a statement of opinion, which as I have previously pointed out to you does not belong in a Wikipedia article (removing a person from a category for the reasons you have cited is stating that opinion). --Kurt Shaped Box 18:56, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

---

In addition to Kurt Shaped Box's comments, googling for "Avril Lavigne" and "punk rock" yields roughly 625,000 results. "Avril Lavigne" and "pop punk", meanwhile, yields 46,900. I'm reinstating Category:Punk rock musicians to the article. Extraordinary Machine 20:49, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

I initially removed Avril Lavigne from the "punk" catagory because I don't consider her to be punk. But since the definition of what is punk and what isn't is often hazy at best, and since this has already been argued a great deal on here, I've decided that it simply isn't worth pressing the issue. It would be a good idea, however, to create a new subcategory for "pop-punk" musicians and perhaps place her in it, as pop-punk is a subcategory of punk-rock. User:Asarelah

Fall to Pieces

"Fall to Peices" was not only released on American radio but also in Canada, and climbed high on the charts.

Why isn't it listed under the released songs from her 2nd album?

She Is Punk

Avril Lavigne is deffinetly a punk girl she showed everbody with her first album. Her second album was more personal. It had some great sonds (nobodys Home) is one of the examples I give you. That Say she can write lots of great songs no matter what

Written By Stephan Guillen

  Yeah because having a record released on a major label is just so isn't it?

Avril Lavigne is deffinetly NOT a punk girl! Her songs sound like ones that Britney would sing! She may dress different, but that doesnt mean shes a punk! Her stylist chooses all her clothes! So wearing baggy jeans, skater trainers, a vest, a tie and all those bracelets isnt her idea! Her makeup is also done by a proffesional! She cant play the guitar or even skate! She claimed she could at first but then denied it! She is part of major record label, appears on MTV alot, and also in every teenybopper magazine! She was a cheerleadr in highschool and wanted to be a country singer! She once even performed with Shania Twain, wow! thats so punk rock.....

lyke. what r u talking bout u b!tch! u dont no avril you can judge her! she does too play da guitar i saw her do it in concert once! so there! she wearz wat she wantz! she doesn not have a stylist! she amke sall her clothez hesrslef and writes her own songs and can totally skate! u r just jelius cos avril is like sooooooooooooooo much better than u! any 1 hui dislikes avril is jelius! u suk! she rox1!

Does anyone know the word for that paragraph right above me, for acting like an idiot on the side that you're against to make that viewpoint look bad?

i think that was typed by a real fan, seriously! there are some avril fans who type like that and have huge tantrums when someone says "i dont like avril" even if that person has a good reason to dislike avril! they say that if you dont like avril your jealous cos shes "better" than us, and we dont knowe her so we cant judge her, but its ok ofr avrils fans to judge anyone who doenst like avri (you know, saying we're worthless, talentless, we listen to boybands, we're cheerleaders, we're apparantly spoiled,etc etc) but there all those things!

tatoos

Avril lavigne dosen't have any tatoos. Avril definetly doesn't have any tatoos. If she did, you would see them in the pictures! Who ever wrote that, they should check first!

I don't know if she has any tatoos or not. I remember an interview where she said that she wouldn't have one because she couldnt change it if she didnt like it. However, the article says they are on her wrists so, because we cant see them does not mean they are not there. Banes 06:04, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Modeling/Acting

Can someone add info on her modeling/acting career, too? She's now with FORD Models in New York, and has upcoming high fashion magazine editorials/covers. I forgot which mag, I think it was Elle, but they said or was she who said it, that she's the new Twiggy of this generation. She's also gonna do some runway. Plus she has new movie coming soon. -Lil_Flip246

Avril's Birthplace Versus Home Town

I notice the article is currently stating Avril was born in Napenee but Avril Lavigne: The Unofficial Book states that she moved to Napenee from Belleville in 1989. Which is correct? Zoe.r 22:59, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

So, where was she born? In Napanee or Belleville, Ontario? hehe :) the article mentions both, in different spots. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.110.231.35 (talk • contribs) .

Belleville. I'll alter the article.

Zoe.r 08:21, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Filmography

Can someone fix the filmography section, cause it looks deformed. Lil Flip246 23:03, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Done! All that was missing was a few row ends and a table close. It's amazing what a difference a few characters make.

Zoe.r 00:06, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Are the rumours concerning her appearance in the upcoming Sk8er Boi film true or false? I've yet to look into the matter. –Eternal Equinox 19:52, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure. IMDB doesn't have a listing for a film called Sk8er Boi and it doesn't turn up in Avril's filmography on there either.

Zoe.r 15:20, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Lead section

Is there a reason that the lead section continuously informs the reader of how to pronounce her name? I would appreciate it if the second-example is removed because it drags the sentence into over-gear, which really isn't necessary. Should I not receive a reply, I will take the initiative by placing a <!-- --> in the article while I debate on the topic with acquiantances interested in linguistics who are not registered on Wikipedia. –Eternal Equinox 19:52, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Avril Lavigne official website spells "I'm With You"

Look, here's a link if you don't believe me!

lyrics page with the song entitled "I'm With You". Capital "W"! Oh, and a link from Billboard.com: Billboard's Discography for "Let's Go" with the song entitled "I'm With You"

As you can see, on Billboard (which I'd say strives to be, you know, pretty accurate in their dealings with music, song titles, etc) and Avril's OFFICIAL WEBSITE, the song is spelled with a capital "W" (even though it's not grammatically correct). Keep in mind that there are MANY song titles that don't adhere to proper English "rules" and it's not up to us to change it if the artist has CHOSEN to go with the grammatically incorrect version.

I don't know if anyone has pointed this out yet. I looked through some of the history and didn't see it mentioned so I thought I'd throw it in and check out the responses.

My thinking is that the song should be documented in Wikipedia with the exact spelling that it is OFFICIALLY documented on her OFFICIAL site. If anyone has a problem with that, say so now, but if not, I'm going to change the capitalization of "with". Ginnna 08:21, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Its also spelled with the capital on the back of Let Go. This has come up before. If you think it should be capitalised then go ahead and be bold. Banez 08:29, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I came back to the edit page to point out that although I'd seen the conflict about the capitalization, what I hadn't found was anyone pointing out that it'd been capitalized in her official website. I saw the thing about the "W" on the actual physical albums being capitalized but nothing about the website. The problem I saw that some people had in the talk above is that they thought it was maybe a typo... but then of course it would also have to be a typo on her official website and on Billboard. I was pretty much going to change it anyway but since it seemed like such a big little deal, I thought I'd bring it to the talk page first to be polite. Ginnna 08:35, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Images In Biography

Is there a reason the cover of Let Go has been replaced by Avril's appearance in Maxim? If this Maxim image is to be used, should it not be shown in the bio for the period in which the shoot took place; i.e. 2004-Present?

Mergefrom

Awards and Nominations earned by Avril Lavigne has been merged here per Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Awards and Nominations earned by Avril Lavigne. -- Jonel | Speak 01:54, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Chart postions redux

Once again, it notice that the Discography section has been populated with unsourced, unreferenced chart positions. As these figures are a prime target for vandalism (and indeed may be completely false as things stand), I have removed them until editors can provide verifiable data from a reliable (online?) source - note the inline comment at the top of the section in question. --Kurt Shaped Box 22:12, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Avril suffers ADHD

It's true, do not erase the sentence that said it ok? please

If it was true, there would be at least one article about this somewhere online. A quick search of Google, Yahoo! and AltaVista shows there isn't.

Cite evidence to back up your claim or stop vandalising this article.

Zoe.r 18:46, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. Unless you can cite a reliable source for this rumour, I will continue to remove it from the article on sight. --Kurt Shaped Box 19:31, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

She suffers ADHD I found that on a lot of famous adhd list !! like http://adhd-famous.ca.cx/ and many others !!

That site cites no evidence, it's just a list of names. Furthermore, it states that several of the names listed were never diagnosed with ADHD, rendering the list questionable at best.

Zoe.r 21:48, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

no, she doesnt suffer from ADHD shes just a brat!