Talk:Avid Catalina

Catalina citations

I'd like to make the catalina information as accurate as possible- spent a lot of time doing initial research for "citation needed" for previous edit- looks like the original editor wants it to be accurate as well. Engine citations were pulled from the yahoo avid newsgroup over a period of time- the landphibian (rodneys) airplane, had a Rotax 912, as did N1945J (serial number 170AB, last official catalina kit). My Catalina, 125AB, is one of two known with a Hirth F30. The Amphibian in Chile with an F30, was featured in news reports in March 2013, shown "belly up". I've copies of his engine mount documentation. N610PB was built (Bradley Simpson) with a Volkswagen variant (expercraft). George Kammerer built his amphibian with the Hirth 2706 (barnstormers).

My builder's manual (1992) lists the option of either midwing, or droop-tip sponsons for the Catalina, and gives instructions for both. Dis-allowing the Yahoo group as a source for citations kind of limits the sources- John Larsen has been posting an early history of the Avid aircraft, currently to 7 chapters, in that group based on his employment.

I own, and built, 125AB (N92KL). I sat in N1945J (170AB) before it was destroyed. I also own N220AP, an Avid Bandit, factory updated to a MK IV (took less time to deliver). I owned N79JW, a Kitfox 1, with spar upgrades to make it a 1.5, with the Rotax 582.

I looked up Rodney Snider on the FAA web site, and discovered his aircraft was a:912 powered and b: destroyed. His is one of two original-built landphibians that I am aware of. Another Catalina was built with the Jabiru 2200, and converted to a landphibian (side sponsons and mid-wing sponsons removed). That catalina is currently being refitted as an amphibian, and is having a BMW engine mounted.

It looks as though you need a picture for the Catalina- Want one of mine? Avidjack (talk) 00:58, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the info here and for bringing the discussion here. Because Wikipedia is an encyclopedia everything has to be cited to verifiable and reliable sources. We can't use self published sources like Yahoo groups, because they are not reliable sources. We get lots of people on the aircraft type articles who add stuff from their own personal experience, but a lot of it turns out to be incorrectly recalled or just plain wrong, which is why we don't allow original research. Basically we can only use information that has been previously published in reliable sources elsewhere. That is why I wrote this article based on what the Aerocrafter and KitPlanes magazine says. Because of these policies I have put in tags to show where we need to cite refs. If we didn't have these safeguards articles would all be full of contradictory personal opinions and it would break down into basically a blog. On Wikipedia it is better to omit information than have unsourced information.

The published owners manual and assembly manuals are fine as references, even if they are just on paper. We can cite information from them as<ref>Author, Date, Title, Page number(s), Publisher</ref>. So if there are builder's manual instructions for the different engines and float arrangements, then that will suffice. There may be some information, like a one-off engine installation, that was never published anywhere, that we just can't source and have to omit.

If you have photos you would like to make available under a free licence for the article that would be great! Photos really make the subject come to life! You can upload them at http://commons.wikimedia.org/ and then insert them into the article. If you have trouble with that I can help put them into the article. - Ahunt (talk) 02:01, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

Ok- so the engine installations Rotax 912ULS, Verner (VW), Hirth 2706, Hirth F30 are cited withing the FAA records previously cited for the Catalina from the FAA: http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/AcftRef_Results.aspx?Mfrtxt=&Modeltxt=CATALINA&PageNo=1 by drilling down. Or by manufacturer's name from the above discussion.

My manual (125AB) cites both wing build options. I'll have to pull the page numbers when next I'm out at the airport.

There no longer exists an easy reference for the Rotax 618. Toss it. With the FAA aging out their records of older builds, some have been lost.

John LarsEn (my typo, my bad) worked within the Avid community, (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airdale_Backcountry) and updated the design of the MK IV aircraft offered by them. He also wrote several articles, one of which I cited in the original attempts, and is currently relating a history of Avid aircraft on the Avid yahoo newsgroup. It really should be captured for updating and correcting information- just don't know how to make it "presentable".

My typo may not be so uncommon- in http://www.ultralightnews.com/enginetroublshooting/arcticsparrow.htm (where John calls off the landphibian by names, both the plane, and the builder already cited) his byline is John LarsOn, but in the followup http://www.ultralightnews.com/enginetroublshooting/arcticsparrow2.htm it came up as John LarsEn. Of note- John WROTE the Catalina build manual.

Number of aircraft manufactured was from an email sent me, and published on the yahoo newsgroup, by the previous owner of Airdale. Don't know how you can not cite correspondence from a previous owners, WHO OWNS THE RECORDS of the company.. you want a signed deposition? I can send him your email address, or you, his. Currently, the number of aircraft cited in your article is incorrect, as only 123AB through 170AB (plus one) were Catalinas- the previous 122 aircraft were amphibians. Again, I'd guess that the number of aircraft built and flown dealt with the amphibian/catalina line. I can pull citations from encyclopedias that indicate the number of planets- they were all the best information known to the editors at the time.

I played the send pictures to the commons area for a while. I'd be happy to donate pictures, but the mechanisms for doing so seem set up to preclude wikipedia becoming a picture cache site.

I'll try and contact you through the talk mechanism in the near future.

-Jack Avidjack (talk) 01:23, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for spending time looking for the references. The main problem with the FAA registration records is that they just indicate the manufacturer, like "Rotax" and not which engine model. The UK aircraft registration records are better and actually indicate the exact engine model. Emails and other non-published sources cannot be used, because they are not verifiable, it is all pretty much explained at WP:V. The number built is from KitPlanes, which would have got it directly from the manufacturer, but I assume that the number includes both Amphibians and Catalinas, but the article covers both those models anyway. If another source can give the numbers by model that would be better, but otherwise we have to go with what we have. - Ahunt (talk) 01:57, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

IF you look up the FAA registration records for N1945J, you will find that the LISTED engine is a Rotax 912ULS. The records for N601PB show a Verner Mtr 133MK (VW). The records for N7088N list the Hirth 2706. N92KL lists the Hirth F30. N78HD although type= glider(!) lists the Rotax 582. I spent the time to come up with references- you might want to check them before dismissing them out of hand.

Kitplanes, October 2006, page 47 also cites the Rotax 912 as a welcome option for the amphibian (article available here: http://www.avidflyeraircraft.com/assets/a_model/Dean%20Wilson.pdf ).

Droop tips are listed as an option in my Catalina builder's manual, revision 9/1/92 Section III A Chapter 6, which details installation of either wing tip.

I don't know whether this is an acceptable reference or not- but I have the original color brochure from Avid Aircraft, effective 3/15/92, that lists the Avid 3-Place Amphibian at $16,695. It also lists the Avid 3-Place "Landplane" [sic] at $15,695. Same brochure clears up some confusion recent article edits created- while there were optional 14 or 18 gallon wing tanks for the *other Avids*, the only optional tanks for the Amphibian were 14 gallon tanks. Brochures from 2000, printed from the web 10/16/2000 also list the fuel as 17.5 gal + 28 optional for the Catalina.

Back to the Landplane- an article by Gary Banducci describes the Amphibian, and includes "...Interestingly, the airplane is available in kit form as the amphibian just described or, minus the sponsoned hull, retractable gear and drooped wing tips, as a 3-place landplane...." This article seems to reference the original appearance of the amphibian at Oshkosh, so that would make it 1985. I have been unable to source the publication that it came from as of yet, but do have a copy of the article (which includes pictures of N47AA, and Dean Wilson).

Avidjack (talk) 18:26, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

Hey great work! Those are all good finds, including the pamphlet (well except for the Banducci article you mention that lacks a full source, we can use it if you can figure out a publication and date). Let me add those and see what is left unsourced afterwards.

One note: N601PB is a Cessna 421, so I still need a ref for the Verner engine if we want to add that (it isn't currently mentioned). We still need refs for the VW and Rotax 618 as well, otherwise it looks much better! - Ahunt (talk) 01:51, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

September 1994 edition of the Avid-Comm newsletter introduces the newer style Catalina- caption above picture reads: "Below: A shot of the new factory Catalina. Among new features on this model are a 74-hp Rotax 618 and electrically retracting landing gear". This is Catalina N157C- picture available here: http://www.airport-data.com/images/aircraft/small/000/151/151040.jpg note- in the picture, the "humps" on the inboard sponsons that house the wheels when retracted are not there- this, and two other Catalinas (known) had forward-retracting gear, which did not prove popular. (Modification described in October 1994 edition of Avid-Comm newsletter)

And- I just realized that I have copies, on CD, of all the Avid-Comm newsletters..

VW- sorry, my typo, its N610PB.

Fuel tanks- both the Amphibian and the Catalina came standard with a 17.5 us gal central tank. The only optional tank size for either one was the 14 gallon wing tank, which could be placed in either , or both wing(s). This is as per the brochures, and builder's manual.

Avidjack (talk) 18:54, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Great work! Let me incorporate all that into the article. - Ahunt (talk) 19:16, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Okay that is all done. The only discrepancy is the Catalina fuel tankage, which Aerocrafter seems to describe differently than what you have. Could it be that the tanks were changed, or is it an error? - Ahunt (talk) 19:40, 27 January 2014 (UTC)