Talk:Avalon/Archive 1

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Avalon is the May Isle in the Firth of Forth-:Fact

It is possible that Avalon, as Arthur's burial island, refers to the 'isle' of Ely, which at the time was an island amid the East Anglian fenland, which has since been drained. I've shifted this here from the entry, rather than suppress it. It must be a modern error, since it wasn't anywhere near the Wessex country that has always been associated with Celtic Arthur. Neither is the Firth of Forth, needless to say. Wetman 19:27, 4 Feb 2004 (UTC)

It is sometimes refered to as the legendary location where Jesus vistied the British Isles with Joseph Joseph of Arimathea and that it was later the cite of the first church in Britain. This location of the Isle of Avalon is usually associated with present day Glastonbury. The legend connects Joseph of Arimathea (but not Jesus) with Glastonbury Tor, not with Avalon. the connection of Glastonbury Tor with Avalon is a separate jump of the imagination. Wetman 22:16, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Has anyone here ever heard of the Burgh-by Sands theory on the subject? It used to be the fort of Aballava in Roman times. There happens to also be a former fort named Camboglanna upward on the Eden. Both names fit, and it has the advantage that for not having been really looked into deeply, we don't have a 10th century style inscription for a supposed 6th century burial. There is also to note that the Aval/Abal root would be apple. (Afal in modern welsh, Ubhall in modern Irish, from aball in OI, Ùbhal in modern Scottish, Aval in Breton and Cornish, Ooyl in modern Manx) I'd be tempted to label then the anwynn theory as eventual hogwash. As to Wessex country, there were Plantagenets looking for everything they could lay a hand on to secure their claims at the time it began to be so. Nennius' chronicles, on the other hand, place him over a generation all over the place, which would be unsurprising for a warlord facing multiple fronts, but this would better belong on a discussion on Arthur himself. David

I reckon that in origin Avalon is simply another spelling of Albion. The legendary island is the White Land of Arthur, the island we now call Britain. Laurel Bush 17:37, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC).

Having read this article, I remain much less the wiser. It seems to be a few vague stories threaded together by poorly written new age waffle. Does anyone have theories or anything more historically accurate than what is written here?

I agree with the above (unsigned). I believe there are official histories of Glatonbury Abbey, one circa 12th centtury and another circa 13th. The earlier details origins of the abbey with no reference to any King Arthur etc, but the later is mysteriously full of such reference. Laurel Bush 16:56, 18 July 2006 (UTC).

Avalon in the Amber books

Can I add the Avalon of Shadow to the list of adaptations? Ladlergo 00:22, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Music Venues

Why are so many music venues named avalon? It seems like theres one in every major city.

Unsource info

The below was removed, I decided to put it here in case anyone can find sources for it, just to avoid loss of information. Wrad 05:35, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

More recently, students have considered Phillip the Apostle's distinctive description of Avalon, as given Joseph of Arimathea at Caesarea. Joseph was to find 1) a white island, 2) abundant in apples, 3)part-owned by England and 4) surrounded by tempestious seas. On the island's highest point he was to build the first alter, dedicated to St.Elena. The only British island that fully fulfills all four criteria, and has a hill-top church ruin of unidentified origin, is Lundy. Visible from Tintagel, Lundy (Luna/Helena/Moon was a possesion of the Knights Templar and is recognised an ancient pilgrimage 'part owned by England', divided in four parts by symbolic stone walling of neolithic period. Bronze-age dwellings, cairns, burial mounds, iron-age tower ruins and giant (8') human remains have been discovered. Surviving headstones at the oval ruin of St.Elena's church date from 6th century A.D. The altar is set on the same latitude (N.51.10)as the altar at Stonehenge. The island is traditionally accessed by boat from the Torridge port of Appledore.

No source is likely to be found. Any surviving writings from Saint Phillip would be quite famous, especially if they were to Joseph of Arimathea. This is nonsense.--Cúchullain ^t/c 05:37, 18 May 2007 (UTC)--Cúchullain ^t/c 05:37, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

haha, very amusing. Wrad 05:39, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Jesus christ the corsair is that it? Are the british, because I have NO doubt it's people with british connections, actually claiming that jesus sailed/walked/or rode on a donkey to the british isles? We aren't talking about Britain during the middle ages here. We're talking about during the Romans. A jew from jerusalem has time not only to be crucified for starting a cult in Jerusalem at the age of, what, 30? But also plan great voyages around the world, usually to whatever place the person holding that belief has a connection too.

Let me get this straight. The mormons says he went to the US (hey, not only 1400 years before spain & portugal landed on the same continent but probably a 1000 years before the vikings ever got near to the northenmost tips of it), british people claims gibraltar is theirs due thanks to hebrews and phoenicians (despite humanish people living in iberia for a VERY long time before that) and of course this. Jesus vacationing in Britain but making it back home just in time to be crucified. I would want any claim of this to be sourced and doublesourced in neutral language just due to the absurdity. What would be his rationale? Was he an explorer? Did he have interests in travelling to then day Britain? Sure if some madman writes it in his little book of fiction it must be so right? By all means, include it, but please for once use neutral language.

213.141.89.53 09:55, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

According to "Icons--A Portrait of England" at http://www.icons.org.uk/theicons/collection/jerusalem/features/and-did-those-feet William of Malmesbury, a Glastonbury monk, wrote in 1137 of his church's founding by Christ's disciples. Then in 1247, a revised version of his history specified Joseph of Arimathea as their leader. This may very well be "pious fiction", but it is historical. California Girl 21 (talk) 05:31, 31 October 2008 (UTC)California Girl 21

Whatever, it is not history, but something in a historical document. Not the same thing. dougweller (talk) 17:43, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Verification

As far as I now, Geoffrey of Monmouth, Chretian de Troyes, and Sir Thomas Mallory were not adherents or proponents of the New Age, and and they are the sources for many of the assertions here. Geoffrey Ashe is also not a New Age figure, and the information here accords with much of his work. Sorry I cannot give you page numbers, but the general information presented here would be recognised in most Celtic Lit classes. Why is it inadmissible here? MVLB (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 19:45, 6 November 2008 (UTC).

questions

i have a few questions about this topic. i was looking up a series called "Avalon Web of Magic." i was wondering, first, is this even a book? if it is, should i read it? one more. Who is the author? -dog lvr 12 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dog lvr 12 (talk • contribs) 00:20, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

This is not the appropriate page for such questions, please ask at one of our reference desks, probably Wikipedia:Reference desk/Humanities. Dougweller (talk) 09:32, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

Déols and Troyes

Now Euric, king of the Visigoths, perceived the frequent change of Roman Emperors and strove to hold Gaul by his own right. The Emperor Anthemius heard of it and asked the Brittones for aid. Their King Riotimus came with twelve thousand men into the state of the Bituriges by the way of Ocean, and was received as he disembarked from his ships.

Euric, king of the Visigoths, came against them with an innumerable army, and after a long fight he routed Riotimus, King of the Britons, before the Romans could join him. So when he had lost a great part of his army, he fled with all the men he could gather together, and came to the Burgundians, a neighboring tribe then allied to the Romans. But Euric, king of the Visigoths, seized the Gallic city of Arverna; for the Emperor Anthemius was now dead.

Jordanes, The Origin and Deeds of the Goths, XLV, 237-238

(Arvena is now Clermont-Ferrand. Sidonius was Bishop there and was imprisoned by Euric before being restored. Gregory of Tours was born there, about seventy years after the events being described.)

The Britanni were driven from Bourges by the Goths, and many were slain at the village of Déols.

Gregory of Tours, History of the Franks, Book II, Chapter 18

Déols is close to Châteauroux, about 50km WSW of Bourges and 100km from Poitiers. It was part of Eleanor of Aquitaine's inheritance.

Avallon is about 100km from Bourges in the opposite direction and about 100km south of Troyes, likely birthplace of Chrétien de Troyes. AJRG (talk) 10:48, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Ummm...what is the point of posting this? Eleanor and Chretien had nothing to do with the creation of Avallon as a legendary island (which was poplarized by Geoffrey of Monmouth in the HRB). Furthermore, aside from the coincidental spellings of their names, there is no connection between the Gallic town of Avallon and the legendary, magical island of Avallon.Cagwinn (talk) 14:40, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Geoffrey Ashe, The Discovery of King Arthur, Guild Publishing, London, 1985. Page 95: "In Welsh it is Ynys Avallach. Geoffrey's Latin equivalent is Insula Avallonis. But this is not really equivalent, since it doesn't correspond to the Welsh. It has been influenced by the spelling of a real place called Avallon. Avallon is a Gaulish name with the same meaning, and the real Avallon is in Burgundy - where Arthur's Gallic career ends. Again we glimpse an earlier and different passing of Arthur, on the Continent and not in Britain." AJRG (talk) 14:58, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

You are just stretching the facts to support your hypothesis. the fact is, Geoffrey's Insula Avallonis was expressly located in the Western Ocean and not in France! Any one who has actually read his HRB and Vita Merlini would know this.Cagwinn (talk) 15:33, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Calm down, Cagwinn. AJRG, there is room for mentioning Ashe's theory in the article, but the stuff about Eleanor and Chretien would certainly be original research.--Cúchullain ^t/c 15:53, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Chrétien de Troyes, Eric et Enide, Vv. 1915-2024(part): Graislemier of Fine Posterne brought twenty companions, and had with him his brother Guigomar, lord of the Isle of Avalon. Of the latter we have heard it said that he was a friend of Morgan the Fay, and such he was in very truth.

One of Chrétien's patrons was Marie of France, Countess of Champagne, eldest daughter of Eleanor of Aquitaine. AJRG (talk) 17:19, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

What's your point?--Cúchullain ^t/c 17:34, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Which part of the stuff about Eleanor and Chrétien did you think was OR? AJRG (talk) 19:20, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

The part that seems to suggest a connection between Eleanor and Chretien, and the Avalon story. I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.--Cúchullain ^t/c 20:54, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Have a look at the first paragraph of Eleanor of Aquitaine...

Geoffrey Ashe, The Discovery of King Arthur, Guild Publishing, London, 1985. Page 96: Riothamus too led an army of Britons into Gaul, and was the only British King who did. He too advanced to the neighbourhood of Burgandy. He too was betrayed by a deputy ruler who treated with barbarian enemies. He too is last located in Gaul among the pro-Roman Burgundians. He too disappears after a fatal battle, without any recorded death. The line of his retreat, prolonged on a map, shows that he was going in the direction of the real Avallon. AJRG (talk) 22:00, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

For Eleanor of Aquitaine and Chrétien of Troyes, see Peter Dronke, The medieval poet and his world, Ed. di Storia e Letteratura, 1984,Page 284 AJRG (talk) 22:41, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Do you know when was the HRB written, or where Geoffrey lived? Do you know the floruit of Eleanor and Chretien and where they lived? What is the connection of the the latter two to the former?Cagwinn (talk) 03:37, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

This is Geoffrey Ashe's theory, so I don't need to defend it. Since you ask, though, the connection is Saint Gildas, or rather the monks of the abbey he founded at Rhuys in Brittany. Ashe op. cit. p 188: Early in the tenth century the monks fled from the Norse and traveled inland to central France - to Berry, in fact. Ebbon, the seigneur of the town of Déols, made them welcome and they settled nearby. When the danger was past they returned to Brittany. AJRG (talk) 11:58, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

A fuller description (in French) is given at INVENTAIRE DE LA BIBLIOTHÈQUE DE SAINT-GILDÂS EN BERRY in BIBLIOTHEQUE DE L'ÉCOLE DES CHARTES XLVII (LIBRAIRIE d'Alphonse PICARD, RUE BONAPARTE, 82, PARIS, 1886) - search for Déols to find it. AJRG (talk) 13:11, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but you are just talking in non sequitor's now. My point was that the HRB was written before the floruits of Eleanor and Chretien, so they have no bearing on the origin of the legend.Cagwinn (talk) 21:23, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

Ashe's theory (as you don't appear to have read the book) is that there was an earlier version of the story already current in Burgundy, in which Riothamus ends up at Avallon, and the monks of Saint Gildas who took refuge at Déols could have taken the story back to Brittany. Geoffrey of Monmouth picked up the tale from his Breton sources, assumed that Riothamus was Arthur and either misinterpreted or reinterpreted Avallon as the Isle of Apples. Later, when HRB became popular, it sparked a creative explosion in the very area the story had originally come from, between Eleanor's court at Poitiers and her daughter Marie's court at Troyes. AJRG (talk) 22:40, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

I am quite familiar with Ashe's books - I first read Discovery of King Arthur in the late 80's, in fact. Things is, few modern scholars take his ideas seriously anymore (if they ever did in the first place - his work has always been considered rather fringe)...his Arthur = Riothamus hypothesis is a flimsy house of cards - in fact, it's rather ridiculous, of one looks at it objectively.Cagwinn (talk) 22:54, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

AJRG, you could have said that from the beginning and spared us a lot of confusion. As I said above we can include Ashe's theory, properly explained and cited, along with the theories and conclusions of other scholars. I certainly think Ashe is notable and respected enough to be included here, though Cagwinn is right that few other historians follow his Arthur=Riothamus theory (there's a good discussion of this in Norris J. Lacy's A History of Arthurian Scholarship, readable here.) Unfortunately this article needs a lot of other work too.--Cúchullain ^t/c 23:08, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

To be fair, it's Geoffrey of Monmouth who appears to equate Riothamus with Arthur - Ashe points out (p90) that more than half of HRB is set in Gaul. I've taken the trouble to lay out some of the sources on which Ashe bases his argument, and I repeat from my original quote (see above): Avallon is a Gaulish name with the same meaning, and the real Avallon is in Burgundy - where Arthur's Gallic career ends. Again we glimpse an earlier and different passing of Arthur, on the Continent and not in Britain. AJRG (talk) 23:33, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

It's patently false to say that Geoffrey of Monmouth equated Arthur with Riothamus - he did no such thing.Cagwinn (talk) 02:39, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Since you're expressing such categoric opinions about Geoffrey of Monmouth, I'll challenge you on something I let ride earlier. Where does he expressly locate Insula Avallonis in the Western Ocean? Citation please. AJRG (talk) 08:36, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

In the Vita Merlini, where Geoffrey adapts for Avallon Isidore's description of the western Fortunate Isles (Isidore says are "situated in the Ocean to the left of Mauretania, very near the west"; medieval geographers often identified with the Canary islands - Geoffrey has Morgen being able to instantly fly to French cities, so he likely imagined it as being off the coast of France). I added translations of the relevant passages from Geoffrey and Isidore to this very article some time ago - have you even read the entire thing?.Cagwinn (talk) 14:28, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

You've made my point for me. Isidore places the Fortunate Isles to the left of Mauretania, but Geoffrey never does. AJRG (talk) 16:00, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

You have got to be joking - there is no correlation whatsoever!! Do yourself a favor and read both Isidore's Etymologiae and Geoffrey's Vita Merlini - it has been recognized for quite some time now that Geoffrey adapted Isidore (or adapted Hrabanus Maurus [De Universo, Ch. 5, De Insulis, Sect. 8-9], who copied Isidore nearly verbatim) for this particular section of the Vita - he mentions the same islands in the same order:

Isidore, Etymologia, 14, Ch. 6, De Insulis:

[first mentions Britannia, Thanatos, Thule, Orchades, Hibernia, Gades]

(Sect. 8) Fortunatae insulae vocabulo suo significant omnia ferre bona, quasi felices, et beatae fructuum ubertate. Suapte enim natura pretiosarum poma siluarum parturiunt. Fortuitis uiribus iuga collium vestiuntur : ad herbarum vicem messis, et olus uulgo est: unde gentilium error, et secularium carmina poetarum propter soli fecunditatem easdem esse paradisum putauerunt. Sitae sunt autem in océano contra laeuam Mauritaniae, occiduo proximae, et inter se interiecto mari discretae

"The name of the Isles of the Fortunate signifies that they bear all good things, as if happy and blessed in the abundance of their fruits. Serviceable by nature, they bring forth fruits of valuable forests; their hilltops are clothed with vines growing by chance; in place of grasses, there is commonly vegetable and grain. Pagan error and the songs of the secular poets have held that these islands to be Paradise because of the fecundity of the soil. Situated in the Ocean to the left of Mauretania, very near the west, they are separated by the sea flowing between them."

[goes on to mention Gorgades, Hesperides, Chryse & Argyre, Taprobana, Tylos]

=============================================================

Geoffrey, Vita Merlini:

[first mentions Britannia, Thanatos, Orchades, Thule, Hibernia, Gades, Hesperides, Gorgades, Argyre & Crysse, Taprobana, Tylis; then the fortunate isles is placed last so as to add the anecdote about Morgen, which leads back to the Arthurian narrative]

insula Pomorum que Fortunata uocatur ex re nomen habet quia per se singula profert non opus est illi sulcantibus arua colonis omnis abest cultus nisi quem natura ministrant ultro fecundas segetes producit et uuas nataque poma suis pretonso germine siluis omnia gignit humus uice graminis ultro redundans annis centenis aut ultra uiuiter illic

"The island of apples which men call “The Fortunate Isle” gets its name from the fact that it produces all things of itself; the fields there have no need of the ploughs of the farmers and all cultivation is lacking except what nature provides. Of its own accord it produces grain and grapes, and apple trees grow in its woods from the close-clipped grass. The ground of its own accord produces everything instead of merely grass, and people live there a hundred years or more." Cagwinn (talk) 21:35, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Geoffrey adapts Isidore's description, but never the location... AJRG (talk) 21:47, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, this is just a ridiculous argument - there is no reason to believe that Geoffrey changed the location of the Fortunate Isles - in fact, he has Barrinthus lead Taliesin and Arthur there - Barrinthus (or Barrindus) is a character borrowed from the popular Navigation of St. Brendan, in which it is stated that he found Paradise (Terra Re-promissionis Sanctorum, "Land of Promise of the Saints") on an island in the WESTERN OCEAN and inspired St. Brendan to also find it. For Geoffrey, Avallon was an Island in the Atlantic ocean - not a town in Gaul!Cagwinn (talk) 23:39, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Nauigatio sancti Brendani abbatis doesn't mention an Isle of Apples, which in Irish tradition was Emain Ablach - usually part of the Otherworld. AJRG (talk) 06:49, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

That is totally besides the point! The Terra Re-promissionis Sanctorum was an island paradise (noted for its eternal abundance of fruit! Porro ascendentibus de navi viderunt terram speciosam ac plenam arboribus POMIFERIS sicut in tempore autumnali) that is described in much the same manner as Isidore and Geoffrey's Fortunate Isles, as well as Emain Ablach.Cagwinn (talk) 01:43, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

When they had disembarked, they saw a land, extensive and thickly set with trees, laden with fruits, as in the autumn season. Called neither Insula Avallonis nor Insula Pomorum nor Insula Fortunata. Is there a secondary source for this speculation, or is it just OR? AJRG (talk) 08:31, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Terra Re-promissionis Sanctorum was called Tir Taingire ("Land of Promise") in Irish; it was identified with Emain Ablach in some Irish tales (for example, as A.G. van Hamel pointed out in "The Celtic Grail." Revue Celtique 47. 340-82, "[i]n Altrom Tight dâ Medar he is also said to reside at Emain Ablach in Tir Tairngire"). You seem not to have noticed that the word pomum "fruits, apples" (either alone, or in compound form) is used in all of the Latin sources that I have thus far quoted.Cagwinn (talk) 01:41, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Apple in Latin is malum, and apple-bearing is maliferum. I realise that pomme means apple in French, but in Latin pomum usually just means fruit. AJRG (talk) 08:34, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Latin pomum also meant apple - in fact, thus word gace us the word for apples in many Romance languages (Catalan: poma, French: pomme, Italian: pomo, Occitan: poma, Romanian: poamă, Sicilian: pummu). Late Gaulish auallo was glossed as poma in the Endlicher Glossary (compiled in Late Antiquity).Cagwinn (talk) 12:49, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Use in later languages is immaterial. The Gaulish derivation, though, is solid. Clark Harris Slover, “Avalon,” Modern Philology 28 (1931), p. 396. makes the connection. AJRG (talk) 13:47, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

The Life of Saint Goeznovius is the first source to associate Arthur with victories in Gaul, but adds no details. Chapter 4 of Book 10 of the HRB, however, introduces this: As soon as all the forces were arrived where Arthur expected, he marched from thence to Augustodunum, where he supposed the general was. But when he came to the river Alba, he had intelligence brought him of his having encampled not far off, and that he was come with so vast an army, that he would not be able to withstand it. Augustodunum is Autun in Burgundy, and this passage bears comparison with the quote from Jordanes given above. AJRG (talk) 09:39, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

It should be painfully obvious that "bears comparison with the quote from Jordanes" is not the same thing as "equated Arthur with Riothamus".Cagwinn (talk) 14:28, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

You'll note that I actually wrote "appears to equate Riothamus with Arthur". You want to compare Geoffrey of Monmouth's description of the Fortunate Isles with that of Isidore, yet you reject Ashe's comparison of Geoffrey's description of the British campaign in Burgundy with that of Jordanes. AJRG (talk) 16:00, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

The similarity was raised as early as 1175 by a monk of Ursicampum (Ourscamp Abbey - 100km NNE of Paris) who added a note to the chronicle of Sigebert of Gembloux. Robert Huntington Fletcher's "Arthurian Material in the Chronicles" (1906) says: The monk of Ursicampum suggests the possible identity of Arthur with Riothimir. Sharon Turner's "History of the Anglo Saxons" (1799), citing the chronicle, is explicit: Either this Riothamus was Arthur, or it was from his expedition that Jeffry, or the Breton bards, took the idea of Arthur's battles in Gaul. AJRG (talk) 08:44, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

So what? Neither individual knew Geoffrey or where he got the idea for this part of the HRB. Even if they were right and Geoffrey did use Riothamus as his model, this would still have no bearing on the origin of the Isle of Avallon as an otherworldly paradise.Cagwinn (talk) 01:43, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

An otherworldly paradise doesn't have a physical location. Riothamus was a historical person who existed in a definite time and place. I've quoted you three secondary sources connecting Arthur with Riothamus, and one (Ashe) connecting Avalon with Avallon. If there's a secondary source supporting your position, this would be a good time to provide it. AJRG (talk) 08:31, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Basil Clarke, Life of Merlin: Vita Merlini Cardiff: University of Wales Press, 1973, p. 8, p. 147, et al.; John Jay Parry, Vita Merlini, BiblioBazaar, 2008 (orig. ed. 1925), p. 51.; Howard Rollin Patch, The other world, according to descriptions in medieval literature, Harvard University Press, 1950, p. 285. John Koch (ed.), Celtic Culture: a historical encyclopedia, ABC-CLIO, 2006, p. 1026. I can list more, if you like.Cagwinn (talk) 19:31, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Relevant quotes? Celtic culture p 1026 just says Isidore was also used as a source for Geoffrey of Monmouth's Taliesin discourses in the Vita Merlini. AJRG (talk) 22:11, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

The Taliesin discourse mentioned by Koch includes the section on islands that we are discussing. Here are some quotes culled from the sources given by me above.

Parry, Vita Merlini:

p. 45, n. 47. "The account of the islands is from Isidore, XIV, vi."

P. 45, n. 48. "The description of the Fortunate Isles comes largely from classical tradition (much of it is to be found in Isidore), but it seems to be influenced by Celtic legends of the happy otherworld."

Clarke, Vita Merlini,

P. 8. "Isidore was apparently consulted at first hand, to judge from the correspondence of most of the examples listed in VM, especially the islands and springs, in the order and content of the items, provided one accepts some simple assumptions about minor alterations. For example, the Fortunate Isles are displaced because, one says, Geoffrey wanted them at the end to lead into the passage about Morgen's island and Arthur."

P. 8. "Geoffrey was on on the whole faithful in presenting such conventional material [from Bede and Isidore], turning it into pleasant verse without transforming it altogether."

P. 147, n. 908-940. "Island of Apples (Fortunate) Isidore's description in full (14.16.8)."

How much longer do you want to play this game? Cagwinn (talk) 01:13, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

An otherworld Avalon clearly doesn't have a physical location... AJRG (talk) 08:34, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

You're blowing my mind....a mystical otherworld in a work of fiction (Historia Regum Britanniae), inhabited by fairies who make magical swords and heal terminally wounded kings, doesn't actually exist in our physical world??? Wow.Cagwinn (talk) 12:48, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Not in the Western Ocean. Geoffrey manages to avoid ever saying that, however much it might be implied. AJRG (talk) 13:47, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

This is really inane. Ashe's theory has been added to the article, what more is being accomplished by this discussion?--Cúchullain ^t/c 17:40, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

This isn't about Ashe's theory - that was already in the article, but not properly referenced. The rest of the theories now need references. For the record, we've just established (see Clark Harris Slover reference, above) that Late Gaulish auallo was glossed as poma in the Endlicher Glossary, so the Etymology section probably needs updating. AJRG (talk) 18:51, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

This is getting silly. I think we all agree that Ashe's idea can be included here, if it's properly cited and explained. What we can't do is present the idea as if it were correct. Let's also try to stay on track here, this isn't an article on Arthur or Riothamus, it's specifically on Avalon, so the only part of the theory that has any bearing is the supposed Avalon-Avallon connection.--Cúchullain ^t/c 12:43, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Shouldn't we let cagwinn speak for himself? I've given you plenty of references - feel free to add any of them to the article. AJRG (talk) 13:13, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

He is speaking for himself. But bottom line is, our opinions don't really matter, all that matters is what the reliable sources say (the secondary sources, not the primary sources, which are open to interpretation). And no, I'm not going to add Ashe to the article myself, I don't have the book.--Cúchullain ^t/c 13:21, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Etymology

Cagwinn (talk) just reverted a referenced change without explanation, and deleted a whole set of citation needed tags for unreferenced material. What was your reasoning for this? AJRG (talk) 06:32, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Your edits had factual errors and you attempted to completely change the etymology of the name based on a single, somewhat antiquated source whose hypothesis has not gained wide acceptance among modern scholars.Cagwinn (talk) 13:49, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

If you think there are errors, point them out. Removing citation needed tags is poor practice. The present text is unreferenced, so what source are you using to support your position? AJRG (talk) 15:05, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for adding references - quotes would be really helpful. H Zimmer 1890 would seem to invite the word "antiquated" which you used above for CH Slover 1931, and JJH Savage 1942 is only just more modern. I'm intrigued by your citation from the 13th century Perlesvaus - what does it say? AJRG (talk) 20:56, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

Alvion

Avalon is a mis-pronuncition of Alvion/Albion and Alba/Alva. It means 'white' and has nothing to do with 'apples'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by BlissDude (talk • contribs) 05:39, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Find some reliable sources putting this forward as an alternative etymology and we can put them in the article. Dougweller (talk) 06:09, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

No reliable sources will be found for this, because it is pure nonsense.Cagwinn (talk) 14:02, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Merger proposal

I suggest merging Isle of Avalon with Avalon.— Rod ^talk 09:35, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

• Support It would appear that what that article is calling "Isle of Avalon" is just the area where Glastonbury Tor is, which was once an island. The name doesn't appear to be in common use, and is derivative of the Avalon of Arthurian legend. Isle of Avalon is a very plausible search term for Avalon.Cúchullain ^t/c 14:28, 18 June 2011 (UTC)
• Support Don't see any reason for two articles. Dougweller (talk) 05:37, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

• OK I've merged in Isle of Avalon which now redirects here, and removed the merge banners.— Rod ^talk 10:16, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Citing "afall" as Modern Welsh

I have changed the word "afall" to "afallen" a couple of times now, as it currently states that the word means "apple tree" in Modern Welsh - this word is no longer used in modern Welsh as is spoken today. A user quoted Geiriadur Prifysgol Cymru as a source; s/he is correct - 'afall' is in there, and so is 'afallen' (see here, page 129). The first instance of 'afall' was noted in 1606 (the late modern Welsh period, and 'afallen' first noted in 1866 (the current modern Welsh period) - 260 years later. For this reason alone, the word "afall" is not modern Welsh (there's a time difference of 115 years between now and the fist appearance of afallen; which is less time than between the development between both words!). Neither does the BBC, Y Termiadur, Google Translate, nor Y Gronfa Genedlaethol o Dermau understand the word 'afall' as it's not modern, everyday, in-current-use Welsh. Y Geiriadur Mawr lists it with an asterisk, noting that it's an obsolete word. We have one of two options: change the article text to cite "early modern Welsh" or change 'afall' to 'afallen' (which is how it currently stands). I'm not sure if the other use speaks Welsh, but I do - I also teach it. A friend once said to me, "Dyw iaith ddim yn dirywio, ond yn datblygu," which means, "A language doesn't deteriorate, but develops" - this is an example of a late modern Welsh word developing into a current modern Welsh word. -- Xxglennxx (talk • cont.) 00:16, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

Welsh afall "apple-tree" (early Old Welsh/Cornish/Breton aball [see the Aleksandr I. Falileev, "The Leiden Leechbook", 2005], is an ancient word, with inter-Celtic cognates attested in Breton, Cornish, Irish, and Gaulish, along with cognates in several other Indo-European languages) is believed by many scholars to be the word that Geoffrey of Monmouth used to create the name Insula Avallonis, which he calls in the Vita Merlini Insula Pōmorum ("Isle of the Fruit Trees", from pōmus "fruit tree"). That the word may be obsolete in 21st century Welsh is besides the point (since it only needed to have survived into the 12th century, for Geoffrey to have known it); but in fact, it did survive into the Modern Welsh period (which began c. 1500 AD), as is proved by the Modern Welsh proverb "ni phell ddigwydd afal o afall" - "the apple will not fall far from the tree". Afallen is a derivative of afall. Cagwinn (talk) 15:46, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

If it's old Welsh, then why is it referred to as modern Welsh in the article? It's not beside the point when it wrongly referenced. I understand that it's the derivative, so it should be stated as such in the article. As it stands, it is misleading on etymology. As for the proverb, I've never come across, and can only find one source of it (here). Neither is it references in Y Geiriadur Idiomau. -- Xxglennxx (talk • cont.) 16:21, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

NOTE: I'm not disputing the fact that afall means apple tree, I'm disputing the fact that it's modern Welsh. -- Xxglennxx (talk • cont.) 16:22, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

Utter nonsense. Though it may no longer be commonly used in today's dialects, the word was still used during in modern Welsh period (c. 1500-today, as is proved by its use in the proverb that I cited, as well as the attestations listed in the GPC); this is confirmed by the word's appearance in several Modern Welsh dictionaries. Please do not remove the word from the article again!Cagwinn (talk) 18:12, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

No it's not. It's not in common use as it's not modern Welsh, not because it belongs to a particular dialect. 15th century Welsh is not modern Welsh, it's late middle Welsh. Modern Welsh is Welsh of the 19th C, and "afall" is not in use in the 19th C. I'll not remove the word but I will revert it back to my last edit, which explains the difference in old, middle, and modern Welsh uses of "apple tree." Perhaps to a non-Welsh speaker this isn't confusing (not insinuating you), as they wouldn't be aware of the current developments, but as a Welsh speaker I'm left wondering, "Why is afall cited as modern Welsh? The Welsh word for apple tree is afallen." Again, if a pupil writes afall instead of afallen, I'd have to mark it wrong, as it's a obsolete. Can you supple names of these dictionaries, please? -- Xxglennxx (talk • cont.) 22:53, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

You really don't know what you are talking about and you are doing harm to this article - congratulations! Cagwinn (talk) 15:25, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

I assume that you don't know how to conduct a Google search (since you do not seem to be aware of the several dictionaries that cite afall as a Modern Welsh word), so I am providing you with a link to one: Google Books: dictionary, afall, apple tree. You also continue to ignore the proverb that I cited above, which is more certainly Modern Welsh, not Middle Welsh. And finally, the Modern Welsh period is generally accepted by linguists as having begun begun c. 1500. See: J. Koch, Celtic Culture, p. 1757. Cagwinn (talk) 15:44, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Rhoddaf y gorau iddi. Roeddwn yn meddwl fy mod innau yn ystyfnig, ond dyna ni. I give up. I thought I was stubborn, but here we are. Thanks for the Google book search. I had conducted one, and you'll fine that this search proves more hits for "afallen" than "afall". I've already addressed your proverb. For your ease, I'll repeat (which is what I seem to be doing again and again): As for the proverb, I've never come across, and can only find one source of it (here). Neither is it references in Y Geiriadur Idiomau. I assume you don't speak Welsh, and are not familiar with the language as it is in it's present form. So I'll say it again: aball IS NOT USED in modern Welsh, so it's WRONGLY stated in the article. "Generally," though not definitely.... Doesn't that book you cited say, and I quote, "... vary somewhat among the experts..."? Though I guess you just ignored that bit, like everything else I've said here? -- Xxglennxx (talk • cont.) 16:00, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

You have got to be kidding me - you entire argument is based on anecdotal evidence - just because you have not encountered this admittedly obscure word in conversation or in your Welsh classes at school, does not mean that the word did not survive into the Modern Welsh period. The word is listed in several Modern Welsh dictionaries, including the granddaddy of them all, the GPC, it popped up in the proverb cited above, and its plural form, efyll, appears in Modern Welsh poetry:

Lewys Morys (mid-18th century), Tôn:

Os dont i Arfon rhag y grôg

Ac ergyd rôg i irgyll,

Ni fynwn wdyn yn eu hoed,

I'w difa ar goed EFYLL;

neu gwest o longwyr o sir fon

I grogi lladron Grigyll

Also, in the 16th century poem "Y Gelynnen" (Anonymous?(:

A chyda'r rhain y wernen,

Cyll ac EFYLL, aethwydd, llwy'

So, can you please stop with the nonsense? Cagwinn (talk) 17:54, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

I've never denied the existence of the word. I'm merely stating that it's not used anymore, and therefore isn't modern Welsh. I suppose I, and the rest of the Welsh speaking world, have a different opinion. Like I said, rhoddaf y gorau iddi - keep it as it is. It's been fun "debating" with you. Just as a side, do you speak Welsh? It'd be nice to know other Welsh speakers here on en. -- Xxglennxx (talk • cont.) 22:31, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

The historical parallel

The historical parallel of Avalon: a peninsula Obolon on the Dnieper River (in Kiev) The Obolon - a name from ancient times. First mentioned in chronicles 1096. This a peninsula was a favorite place of hunting and recreation for the Kings of Kiev. See photos on the Internet, as well as the history of Obolon http://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/Оболонь_(місцевість_Києва) .--109.110.91.109 (talk) 23:38, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

There is no "historical" parallel - Avalon was invented as a magical, otherworldly island by a medieval writer of fiction (Geoffrey of Monmouth); the fact that its name resembles other, real places around the globe is completely coincidental. Cagwinn (talk) 17:02, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

Connection to Sicily

There are so many sources that speak of Sicily and Etna about Avalon.--95.250.109.33 (talk) 07:37, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

The island of Sicily is Avalon .. this is a historical truth.--151.19.116.37 (talk) 12:02, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Connection to Glastonbury

Two different IPs have removed the whole section on "Connection to Glastonbury". Could we have other opinions on whether to keep or delete this section?: Noyster (talk), 09:48, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Looks like it's just one person editing from Milan. I've semi-protected for 2 days. I see no reason to remove it. Dougweller (talk) 11:17, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

this is an encyclopedia not a tourist brochure: ""Connection to Glastonbury"", U.F.O,

This is a tourist brochure: "" The burial discovery ensured that in later romances, histories based on them and in the popular imagination Glastonbury became increasingly identified with Avalon, an identification that continues strongly today. The later development of the legends of the Holy Grail and Joseph of Arimathea by Robert de Boron interconnected these legends with Glastonbury and with Avalon, an identification which also seems to be made in Perlesvaus. The popularity of Arthurian Romance has meant this area of the Somerset Levels has today become popularly described as The Vale Of Avalon.[20] In more recent times writers such as Dion Fortune, John Michell, Nicholas Mann and Geoffrey Ashe have formed theories based on perceived connections between Glastonbury and Celtic legends of the otherworld and Annwn in attempts to link the location firmly with Avalon, drawing on the various legends based on Glastonbury Tor as well as drawing on ideas like Earth mysteries, Ley lines and even the myth of Atlantis. Arthurian literature also continues to use Glastonbury as an important location as in The Mists of Avalon, A Glastonbury Romance and The Bones of Avalon. Even the fact Somerset has many apple orchards has been drawn in to support the connection. Glastonbury's connection to Avalon continues to make it a site of tourism and the area has great religious significance for Neopagans, Neo-druids and as a New Age community, as well as Christians. Hippy identification of Glastonbury with Avalon seen in the work of Michell and in Gandalf's Garden also helped inspire the Glastonbury Festival.[21]""

Atlantis?????????????? Holy Grail=Glastonbury=AVALON? Glastonbury Festival is AVALON?--151.46.169.17 (talk) 11:50, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

I agree that it should be removed.Cagwinn (talk) 16:15, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Cagwinn - all of it? Why? The IP wants the entire connections to Glastonbury section removed, see [1]. Dougweller (talk) 21:00, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

While it certainly is appropriate to mention that in later tradition (likely based on propaganda spread by the cash-hungry clerics at Glastonbury abbey; on this subject, I can recommend that folks read the various articles contained in: James P. Carley, Glastonbury Abbey and the Arthurian Tradition, Boydell & Brewer, 2001) Glastonbury became associated with Avalon, most of the material that was removed is entirely superfluous to this article. Cagwinn (talk) 22:01, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Glad you agree that the later tradition should be included. I haven't read the Carley book. Dougweller (talk) 08:02, 9 October 2014 (UTC)