Talk:Augustus Le Plongeon

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Problems: "Americanist" and "hieroglyphic"

I just cleaned up this page and added some links. I think it's in pretty good shape, but there were two problems that I do not know how to solve.

First, the word "Americanist" is used twice. The first one links to a non-existent Wikipedia page. I cannot figure out what this word means in the context of this article. I looked in some dictionaries, but none of the definitions I saw stands out as being obviously the one intended in this article. This needs some clarification.

Second, the word "hieroglyphic" is problematic. In context it refers to Mayan writing. However, the Wikipedia "hieroglyphic" page is a redirect to "Egyptian hieroglyph", which is clearly not what is intended in this article (although I don't think Le Plongeon would complain). If "hieroglyphic" only properly refers to ancient Egyptian writing, then the word should not be used here. On the other hand, if it is really a more general term, then the "hieroglyphic" page should have some content indicating this, and not be merely a redirect. I wouldn't know which option is best.

— Nowhither 11:08, 12 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks to CJLL Wright for nicely solving the first problem above. But the second problem (the "hieroglyphic" link) remains. — Nowhither 09:20, 25 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

You're welcome, Nowhither, am merely following on from your earlier very useful clarifications and copy-edits. I'm glad that this entry was earlier rescued from VfD; the Le Plongeons are fascinating characters, no matter how silly their speculations seem to us today.

Re "hieroglyphics" vs. "Maya hieroglyphics"- I agree that the context indicates that the latter sense is meant, and I have accordingly edited to reflect this. I understand that the general basis for their (and others') theories on cultural connectedness came not so much from similarities in the two scripts (they are quite visually distinct), but rather from similarities in some recurring artistic motifs and themes in structures and decoration. Even into the 1950s some serious papers were still being written which highlighted the supposed use of the same or similar motifs in Mayan and southeast Asian architectural decorative styles (perhaps not so much with Ancient Egyptian). I'll look to dig out some references on this (my recollection is a bit vague), and perhaps update the article.--cjllw | TALK 03:12, 2005 August 26 (UTC)

Lead paragraphs

The lead says Le Plongeon "made the first attempted excavations and photographic records of the ruins of Chichen Itza". This needs to be reworded. John Lloyd Stephens and Frederick Catherwood made a series of Daguerreotypes on their second expedition to Yucatán in the early 1840s. Alas they all seem to have been lost-- IIRC in a fire in New York City. I'd have to check about Chichen specifically, but I know there are at least a few surviving photos of Maya ruins of Yucatán from the decades between Stephens and Le Plongeon, including Charney. -- Infrogmation 19:48, 9 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I modified the lead. -- Infrogmation

Importance

While Le Plongeon is a facinating character, I don't think he's particularly important in understanding Mesoamerica, so I suggest reassessing the importance of this article in the Mesoamerican studies category from "Mid" to "Low". -- Infrogmation 19:50, 9 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have changed the assesment per above. -- Infrogmation 23:52, 10 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, thanks.--cjllw | TALK 01:45, 11 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Desmond Corrections

Lawrence Desmond, who has written several biographies of Le Plongeon, has published a list of errors on this Wikipedia page (see his blog, Archaeoplanet, at http://archaeoplanet.wordpress.com/2011/11/14/a-critique-of-the-wikipedia-augustus-le-plongeon-article/). I have made those corrections, as well as clarified and edited the article. CoyoteMan31 (talk) 15:52, 16 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

=== Sources for amateur ===

@CoyoteMan31I'm not sure that's a reliable source as it's a blog. I did find Yucatan Through Her Eyes: Alice Dixon Le Plongeon, Writer ...Lawrence Gustave Desmond · 2009

... Augustus Le Plongeon was a medical doctor , photographer , antiquarian , and amateur archaeologist of French origins . In the early 1860s , after spending time in Chile and northern California , Le Plongeon moved to Lima , Peru , where ...

And of course the Getty source[1] "The collection documents the archaeological excavations, fieldwork, research, and writings of the nineteenth-century photographers, antiquarians, and amateur archaeologists Augustus and Alice Dixon Le Plongeon, the first persons to systematically excavate and photograph the Maya sites of Chichén Itzá and Uxmal (1873-1886). The couple’s pioneering work in documenting Maya sites and inscriptions with photography, which in many cases recorded the appearance of sites and objects that have subsequently been damaged or lost, was overshadowed in their own lifetimes by their theories of Maya cultural diffusion, and in particular by their insistence that the Maya founded ancient Egypt."

Ornamental Nationalism

Archaeology and Antiquities in Mexico, 1876-1911

By Seonaid Valiant · 201[2] "number of antiquities sold abroad. Officials were able to apply this law when, in December 1875, the flamboyant French amateur archaeologist Augustus Le Plongeon attempted to smuggle out a Maya sculpture. At Chichen Itza, Le Plongeon had come upon a stone reclining figure, a chacmool, bearing an offering plate."

Uncovering the Past A History of Archaeology

By William H. Stiebing OUP 1994 [3] "Brasseur’s ideas about Mu/Atlantis were developed further in the 1880s and 1890s by an eccentric Frenchman named Augustus Le Plongeon. This amateur archaeologist visited many sites in Yucatan and conducted excavations at Chichen Itza, the first true excavations at a Maya site. Le Plongeon claimed to be able to decipher Maya inscriptions, interpreting several of them as records of the destruction of Mu." Doug Weller talk 14:06, 21 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"The assertion that Le Plongeon was an amateur is not supported by the article below, nor by biographer Desmond who is used in this article, nor by other Le Plongeon biographers such as Brunhouse, not even by the text of the article you cite, which notes Le Plongeon did the first "systematic excavation" of Chichen Itza." - that last bit if OR. I've posted several sources on the talk page now. Doug Weller talk 14:10, 21 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for this, Doug. I saw the same when I searched the Internet Archive. However you're not reading the sources or considering their merit. You'll find that the use of the term "amateur" in Desmond is in the foreword which uses Beth Ann's summary from the Getty. Also, if you compare the Getty summary in Larry's book with the summary online that you cited, you'll find several errors in Beth Ann's original that have since been corrected. In Beth Ann's defense, she is an archivist with a masters in art history, not an archaeologist or trained in archaeology. Valiant, a historian, wrote a great book, but most is based on secondary sources and therefore contains multiple errors in her very brief mentions of Le Plongeon, such as the canard that Le Plongeon tried to smuggle the Chac Mool out of Mexico, when, in fact, he asked permission of Mexico to exhibit it. Stiebling barely mentions Le Plongeon.

At issue here is that Le Plongeon's biographers, either book length or chapter length, call him an archaeologist. Two of whom, Desmond and Brunhouse, are/were archaeologists. What is your reasoning for wanting to go outside those sources in the introduction? If the objective is to diminish Le Plongeon in the eyes of the reader, it seems there are other ways to do that. I woudl argue this sentence in the intro, "While his writings contain many notions that were not well received by his contemporaries and were later disproven," is probably the place to rewrite to be clear that his theories not only were disproven, but are the source for much of today's pseudo-archaeology related to the Maya. — Preceding unsigned comment added by CoyoteMan31 (talk • contribs) 15:40, 21 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, forgot my signature CoyoteMan31 (talk) 15:48, 21 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I overlooked that you were responding to my post of 15 years ago regarding Larry Desmond's Wikipedia corrections. Desmond's blog post cites his sources. It appears that since I made those changes in 2011, there have been two or three other major rewrites/edits of this page. It's pretty cool to look back and see all the work done on this page since it was created in 2005 and since I began tinkering in 2007. CoyoteMan31 (talk) 17:29, 21 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Just looked at Larry's blog post and while he has his bibliography, nada specifics in the blog post sourced. CoyoteMan31 (talk) 17:34, 21 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]