Talk:Atlantic Division (NHL)

Text and/or other creative content from this version of Atlantic Division (NHL) was copied or moved into Atlantic Division (NHL, 1993–2013) with this edit. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists.

Atlantic Division page breaks

For a newb looking to find divisional/NHL information, it seems to me a bit of a cluttered, confusing disservice to them to have a dissolved division merged with a current division. They should be treated as two different divisions, the namesake may not be grounds for merging (see: North American Soccer League (1968–84), North American Soccer League. Creating a 1993–2012 Atlantic Division page would also provide a much better opportunity to expand that era history into something more substantial and historical in nature. --Nonc01 (talk) 13:50, 9 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I tend to agree. Besides the name, there is just about nothing that carried over from the Atlantic Division of 2012-2013 to the Atlantic Division of 2013-2014. Ultimately, the decision should also take into account the way the NHL views the history of the two divisions. Tklalmighty (talk) 09:16, 6 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

In agreement. This article should be divided into Atlantic Division (NHL, 1993–2013) & Atlantic Divison (NHL). GoodDay (talk) 02:54, 13 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed also.Echoedmyron (talk) 03:07, 13 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, it should be split. I would, but I don't how to do it properly.Insert90 (talk) 18:16, 25 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"Lists" and "scores"

An IP editor keeps adding random lists of team names to this article without sources or explanation, that seem to be meant to reference standings or some other level of achievement. First it was apparently current standings, which of course is not done mid-season. The second time it appears to have been listing each member team's previous standing in the division, although didn't reference a year or anything. Whatever I just reverted this time is even more obscure, and as before, not a single reference to support including something. Echoedmyron (talk) 20:27, 19 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Division history associated with old Atlantic Division....why?

The current Atlantic Division is a successor of the Northeast Division, plus the Florida teams (Southeast) and Detroit (old Central). The division’s history from 1993–2013 on this article should be attributed to the Northeast Division, not the old Atlantic Division.

The current Atlantic took the name of the old Atlantic, but is not the successor of it. The Metropolitan Division is (all five old Atlantic teams plus Carolina and Washington from the Southeast, as well as Columbus from the old Central). Most of the information from the article detailing the Northeast Division needs to be moved to this one. If no one else will do it, I will. Jewel15 (talk) 04:22, 1 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Merger proposal

I proposed merging this article Northeast Division (NHL) into Atlantic Division (NHL). The Northeast Division isn't a dissolved division, it has been renamed to the division that still exists. The NHL's 2013 realignment simply added three teams to the Northeast Division, and then renamed it the Atlantic Division. The previous Atlantic Division was simply what is now known as the Metropolitan Division excludes Carolina, Columbus, and Washington (though Washington was part of that division from 1993–1998). All the content from this page was moved to the Atlantic Division page. Thank you! – AaronWikia (talk) 17:51, 2 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@AaronWikia: This is not how merger proposals work here. The merge, done by @Jewel15:, had already been reverted by @Deadman137:. As there appears to be some disagreement, we are supposed to discuss, and then merge if a consensus is reached to do so. Not merge content and then "propose" (Def: "propose" – put forward an idea or plan for consideration or discussion by others.) Please properly use the merge tags and discuss. Thank you, Yosemiter (talk) 19:09, 3 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Yosemiter: I feel that the Atlantic Division’s page should not detail the history of the 1993–2013 Atlantic. All the NHL did was add Detroit and the Florida teams to the Northeast and rename it the “Atlantic Division.” The Northeast page should be merged into this page for this reason, as the Atlantic is simply its successor. As for the current “Metropolitan Division,” it is simply the old Atlantic plus Carolina, Columbus, and Washington. Only the Southeast can be reasonably considered a “dissolved division.”Jewel15 (talk) 14:47, 2 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Splitting proposal

I propose that sections § 1993-1998 and § 1998-2013 be split into a separate page called Atlantic Division (NHL, 1993–2013). The complete realignment in 2013 with no shared teams with the previous iterations of the division should be covered in its own separate article. snood1205 21:44, 2 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(Courtesy ping to: Jewel15, AaronWikia, Yosemiter, Nonc01, Tklalmighty, GoodDay, Echoedmyron, Insert90) snood1205 21:52, 2 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

In full agreement (after all, I recommend it at least twice, before), as they're separate divisions which happen to have the 'same' name. The 1993-2013 Atlantic Division is a successor of the Patrick Division. The 2013-present Atlantic Division is mostly a successor of the Northeast Division, which was a successor of the Adams Division. GoodDay (talk) 21:59, 2 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

They probably do meet GNG independently as they both existed for separate significantly different timeframes. By the same token, I really dislike the 2020–21 teams being included in the otherwise unrelated West Division (NHL), East Division (NHL), and the very existence of North Division (NHL) (as well as splitting out the Central Division (NHL)#2020–2021 with pointer link to the pandemic alignment page). There should be single article on the pandemic-specific alignment; it's not like Avalanche, Wild, and Sharks ever completed with the Blackhawks, Flyers, and Penguins during the 70s in the West Division. Yosemiter (talk) 19:26, 3 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with split, and agree with not including the pandemic-season alingnments in the historic divisions. oknazevad (talk) 06:45, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Snood1205: Would you like this discussion to be made into an RFC, for more exposure & thus input? PS: I think you meant to propose Atlantic Division (NHL, 1993–2013), rather then Creating Atlantic Division (NHL, 1993–2013), btw. GoodDay (talk) 22:41, 8 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

A few years ago, I revised that Atlantic Division article, and for those same reasons you guys mentioned. In turn, I deleted the Northeast Division article that described it as a defunct division, which it is not. The current Atlantic Division is simply the old Northeast Division plus the Florida teams and Detroit. If I remember correctly, I deleted the Metro Division article, as it is simply the old Atlantic Division plus Carolina, Columbus, and Washington. Unfortunately, my work was quickly undone by fellow editors. Hopefully we can reach an agreement on this with people who disagree with us. Jewel15 (talk) 01:42, 9 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

We should keep the historical divisions. GoodDay (talk) 19:38, 9 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I've completed the task of splitting the articles. GoodDay (talk) 16:46, 10 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Which was later reverted by another editor. GoodDay (talk) 18:31, 17 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

Oppose split, per discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ice Hockey#Atlantic Division split completed. 162 etc. (talk) 19:46, 12 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support the split. But somebody else will have to do the workload, next time. All my efforts were reverted. GoodDay (talk) 04:34, 13 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per the discussion already ongoing linked to by 162. They are not two distinct entities. All that changed is the composition of the entity. Just like the players on a team might change year to year. We still consider it the same team. -DJSasso (talk) 21:13, 13 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Since GoodDay removed a comment mentioning there wasn't one team the same in the division before and after the date choosen. I should point out the 2014 and 2018 Canadian Olympic teams have no players on them that are the same. Would you have a differnent Canadian men's national ice hockey team article for each of them because the players are completely different. No you would not. Entities don't become new entities just because their composition changes. -DJSasso (talk) 12:29, 14 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Those international team articles are confusing in their current status. Jumping back-an-forth, between Ice Hockey World Championships, Winter Olympics & other tournaments, particularly in the infoboxes. Each IIHF member should have team articles for each tournament. GoodDay (talk) 16:01, 14 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Closure

It's been over 3 days now & there's been no new input from other editors. Even the editor who nominated this article for splitting, seems to have walked away from the idea. Apathy from the originator, is usually a sign that the endeavour is doomed. May as well remove the Split tag, per lack of interest. GoodDay (talk) 19:08, 17 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]