Talk:Astor Piazzolla/Archive 1

Untitled

Archive #1 of Ástor Piazzolla's talk page as before 2007.

Argentina

"It is said that in Argentina everything may change -- except tango -- "

who said that stupid thing?

I suspect no one did, although there were certainly plenty of people who viewed Piazzolla's changing of the tango to be sacrilege. -- Jmabel 23:44, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I'm argentinian [1] and that phrase is not false, it was very common, but now in Buenos Aires the people is extremly open. The nuevo tango it's the music they listen in Buenos Aires. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 190.49.5.50 (talk • contribs) 22 August 2006.

"During the period of Argentine military dictatorship from 1976 to 1983, Piazzolla went into exile in Paris. "

Who said THAT stupid thing? That is absolutely inaccurate. As a matter of fact Piazzolla was living in Europe (in Italy to be more precise) in those years, but he returned many times to Argentina. He also had lunch with the dictator Jorge Rafael Videla:

"One year before the *Los Largartos* issue you went to Videla's house and had lunch with him, why did you accepted that invitation? What an invitation! They sended a couple of guys with black suits and a letter with my name on it that said that Videla expected me some day in some place. I have a book around in some place, with pictures of all the guests: Eladia Bláquez, Daniel Tinayre, Olga Ferri, the composer Juan Carlos Tauriello, there were painters, actors [...]"7 ("Astor Piazzolla, A manera de Memorias", Libros Perfil 1998, page 85)

He also said in his Memoires "¿What do you think of Pinochet (Chilean dictator)? I think that we argentinians needed a character as Pinochet. Maybe argentina needed a bit of facism in some moment of it's history" ("Astor Piazzolla, A manera de Memorias", Libros Perfil 1998, page 86)

Piazzolla also recorded a couple of Albums in Argentina in those years, "Biyuya" 1979 (Interdisc Slim 3055 L.P.) and in 1982 in the middle of the Falkland/Malvinas war "Piazzolla & Goyeneche" (RCA Victor AVS 4999 L.P.) in which Goyeneche -a very famous tango singer- makes a couple of anti-Margaret Thacher remarks.

Piazzolla also recorded an Album which was part of the official music soundtrack of the Football (soccer) world cup that was held in Argentina in the year 1978 and was -of course- organized by the government which was in those years the military dictatorship presided by Jorge Rafael Videla. The album's name is "Piazzolla 78" that includes compositions such as "World Cup 78", "Penalty", "Goal" and "Champion" (Trova DA 5015).

So, Piazzolla didn´t live in Europe because of his disagreements with the military dictatorship, he was sadly near their ideas and benefit from them.

-- Please excuse my spelling/grammar mistakes, I don't write much in english. Ignacio Oroná (ignacioorona@arnet.com.ar)

I will try to integrate this material into the article. And it is unnecessary to call someone "stupid" when they are merely mistaken. - Jmabel 18:49, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I am very sorry, I didn't want to insult anyone. I thought that "who said that stupid thing" was simply a matter of speaking, I thought it was something that was oftenly used here in the Wikipedia. My sincere apologies. Ignacio Oroná (ignacioorona@arnet.com.ar)

Tone

I see this has a "cleanup-tone" tag on it, but no one has given any indication what they see as the problem with the tone. It looks reasonably OK to me; could you please be more specific? -- Jmabel | Talk 00:05, Mar 16, 2005 (UTC)

I apologize for the Tone tag, it was my mistake when adding a simple cleanup tag. I do feel however, that it should get a much higher quality level, thus the cleanup tag. Although the article is basically well oriented, it is a shame to loose the oportunity to get to know more of his work and biography. You seem to be more interested in providing controversial details about his politic ideas than going deep into what made him great. Lack of references, lack of discography, lack of links for further information, lack of details of his career (just a basic overview)... sorry, but this article is "this" close of being a stub. I intend to help, if needed, so don't take this badly, it's just constructive criticism. Shauri 00:23, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)

So wouldn't template {{expansion}} be more appropriate than cleanup? "Cleanup" implies active problems with the existing text. -- Jmabel | Talk 02:03, Mar 16, 2005 (UTC)

Maybe, Joe, you're far more experienced than me in the use of Wiki templates. As far as I was told, "cleanup" was appropriate for this kind of situation, but let's follow your idea. Yet, it is not only the further expansion of the article what I intended to be considered, but its wikifying and organization as well. I really dislike inserting those quotes within the body of the article, as well as its general politic tone. Not that such an issue cannot be discussed, but it is as best speculative and a Wikipedia article (which in my humble opinion should focus mainly on his biography, career and the style he created) can spare having half of it merely regarding the subject. As an argentinian who has witnessed this discussion before, I can tell you that it's not as clear as you present it. Shauri 12:05, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)

As you can see if you look at the exchange above, most of what I did was to write up the remarks that an Argentine placed here on the talk page, and turn them into a form more like an article. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:25, Mar 17, 2005 (UTC)

Baltar

This article could probably use information about his work with Amelita Baltar and Horacio Ferrer. Tim Rhymeless (Er...let's shimmy) 08:41, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

"most important"

"…probably the single most important tango composer of the 20th century…": probably true (although I'm sure some would hold out for Gardel), but certainly POV and really in need of a citation rather than being in the narrative voice of the article. Does someone have something appropriate? -- Jmabel | Talk 06:32, May 2, 2005 (UTC)

Well, I basically added that because I wanted to give some impression of his overall significance... and didn't want to understate it. But something more objective would certainly be helpful. As far as a citation, [2], says "It's not hyperbole to say that Astor Piazzolla is the single most important figure in the history of tango, a towering giant whose shadow looms large over everything that preceded and followed him." (anon May 2, 2005)

Not terrible, but I'd really like to see a citation from a major music critic. As far as I know, Steve Huey isn't particularly an authority, although I'm ready to stand corrected if someone has evidence that he is. -- Jmabel | Talk 02:16, May 3, 2005 (UTC)

Gardel was more of a performer of tango "standards" and didn't write any instrumentals as far as I know, nor pursue any classical training or jazz collaborations. Other contenders for "greatest composer" would be, depending on viewpoint, DeCaro, Pugliese, Troilo, or Vardaro, all of whom were bandleaders and did some progressive musical things. But there isn't really any contest from a musician's (as opposed to dancer's) perspective. timribchester

Boulanger

Piazzolla didn't study with either Ginastera or Boulanger before 1937 (age 16!), but rather with Ginastera in the late 1940s and with Boulanger from 1953-55. Kylegann 16:37, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

Flute in 'traditional' tango

I understand, from notes on the Henry Lemoine edition of Histoire du Tango for flute and guitar, that the early tango of the 1890 bordellos was played on flute and guitar. So the sentence in the Music section "Piazzolla also introduced new instruments that were not used in the traditional tango, including the flute, saxophone, electric and electronic instruments, and a full jazz/rock drum kit." isn't quite right. I suggest changing 'not used in the traditional tango' to 'not used in the conventional tango' would put this right. Springswood 11:17, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

Go for it. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:02, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

Musical history

The "music" section is paltry. Somebody who knows his history better than I do should add a section detailing his musical phases and most important works: Tango Zero Hour, Maria de Buenos Aires...? !melquiades 21:52, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

I wrote a moderately decent short article on María de Buenos Aires, which is linked from this article. But I agree, Piazzola deserves much more of an article than this, if someone has time and knowledge it would be a great one to work on. -- Jmabel | Talk 02:22, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

The German-language article at least has a much more comprehensive list of his works, if someone wants to start there. -- Jmabel | Talk 02:27, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

I agree, he deserved alot more, although I am neither knowledgable nor have time right now :( Karol 08:23, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

- I'll get on it - I'm actually doing a PhD on Piazzolla right now and have surveyed all the literature currently available (mainly English and some Spanish and German). I've already cleaned up a few misfires in the main article which is a pretty good backbone, but need a lot more on the musical style and his "phases" as you say. Leave it with me...Tim

OK, have added a large chunk on musical style which I will continue to edit and add citations to. There will be some overlap with the "career" section which I will get to eventually. Any suggestions welcome (tribches@sas.upenn.edu). Thanks, Tim timribchester 17:44 Eastern time, 4 Sept 2006

Excellent additions. Citations would be a big help: I can see you know what you are talking about, but someone else is liable to come along and make a hash of it unless it's cited. - Jmabel | Talk 04:30, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Compositions

In the article it says that he composed around 3000 pieces, something I doubt, but maybe we could get a reference. In the spanish version of this article it says 700, which also doesn't explain why in the english article says that there are 500 recorded pieces.

Maybe someone with experience could add some links to his albums (I added a reference to his collaboration with Yo-Yo Ma and the other one with Gerry Mulligan, but It'd be better to put the name of the albums and so on). --Joanberenguer 07:29, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Gerry Mulligan

I believe he did more than one album with Gerry Mulligan (though I'm not certain); also, the phrase: "with compositions that had some jazz flavour" seems to ignore jazz elements in plenty of his other compositions. - Jmabel | Talk 06:22, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

• I was wrong, only one with Mulligan, I've made it more specific. - Jmabel | Talk 17:04, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

I changed that and put that Gerry Mullligan is a jazz sax player, which is clearly. We should put some album names, I'm very new to Wikipedia and can't put a lot of time learning how to do some things, thank you! --Joanberenguer 10:38, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

When did he ever record with Yo-Yo Ma? Ma did an album of Piazzolla material some years after Piazzolla died, but when did they do an album together? I have my doubts about this: it should either be more specific or out of the article. - Jmabel | Talk 17:04, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Yo-Yo Ma never got to play or record with Piazzolla (although Ma certainly seemed to have recorded with everyone and his/her mom)...well, not technically. From Ma's Soul of the Tango album liner notes, he said, "One of my great regrets is never having met Piazzolla. But coming to Buenos Aires and working with his fellow musicians has brought me closer. Now, through the miracle of modern technology, Piazzolla and I have gotten even closer: Using some outtakes of Piazzolla playing the bandoneon, Jorge Calandrelli composed music for me, so that in the piece called 'Tango remembrances' we are playing together."

So that explains it, thanks! I deleted the reference to Yo-Yo Ma. Maybe his quote is interesting for his article. --Joanberenguer 14:55, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Correction

He returned to Argentina in 1937, where strictly traditional tango still reigned, and played in night clubs with a series of mediocre groups.

200.89.155.69 04:25, 28 August 2006 (UTC) I find the previous sentence to be extremely inaccurate...

Actually, soon after he returned to Argentina he joined Anibal Troilo's Orchestra, not only as a bandoneon player but also as arranger. And they had a love-hate "friendship" that lasted the rest of their lives. And they had much influence in each other´s style... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 200.89.155.69 (talk • contribs) 27 August 2006.

Thank you for your suggestion! When you feel an article needs improvement, please feel free to make those changes. Wikipedia is a wiki, so anyone can edit almost any article by simply following the Edit this page link at the top. You don't even need to log in (although there are many reasons why you might want to). The Wikipedia community encourages you to be bold in updating pages. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes — they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. If you're not sure how editing works, check out how to edit a page, or use the sandbox to try out your editing skills. New contributors are always welcome. And god knows this article could use them. No one has really taken on getting this right, it's just been accumulating the bits and pieces people have added. - Jmabel | Talk 21:46, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

---I just fixed that problem among others, and am going to get on task with the rest soon. ...Tim

Name: Piazzolla / Piazzola

Not trying to cause trouble here, just wondering: How did Piazzol(l)a himself spell his last name? Not only have I seen both spellings, I have legitimate, legal CDs of his music with both spellings, which is pretty unusual. A Google search turns up nearly equal numbers of sites under Astor Piazzolla (2.1 million) and Astor Piazzola (2.4 million). My assumption is that the original Italian family name was Piazzolla, which naturally would have been changed to Piazzola in Argentina to avoid the Spanish pronunciation of the "ll." But who changed it back, and when? Astor himself, or his fans? --Potosino 03:40, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Astor Piazzolla/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Comment(s)

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==Composers Project Assessment of Astor Piazzolla: 2008-11-18== This is an assessment of article Astor Piazzolla by a member of the Composers project, according to its assessment criteria. This review was done by Magicpiano. If an article is well-cited, the reviewer is assuming that the article reflects reasonably current scholarship, and deficiencies in the historical record that are documented in a particular area will be appropriately scored. If insufficient inline citations are present, the reviewer will assume that deficiencies in that area may be cured, and that area may be scored down. Adherence to overall Wikipedia standards (WP:MOS, WP:WIAGA, WP:WIAFA) are the reviewer's opinion, and are not a substitute for the Wikipedia's processes for awarding Good Article or Featured Article status. ===Origins/family background/studies=== Does the article reflect what is known about the composer's background and childhood? If s/he received musical training as a child, who from, is the experience and nature of the early teachers' influences described? Good. ===Early career=== Does the article indicate when s/he started composing, discuss early style, success/failure? Are other pedagogic and personal influences from this time on his/her music discussed? Good discussion of early influences, but little on compositions. What was his first (known/published) composition? Few personal details. ===Mature career=== Does the article discuss his/her adult life and composition history? Are other pedagogic and personal influences from this time on his/her music discussed? Discusses what he did, but not so much what he wrote (in the Biography section). Few personal details. ===List(s) of works=== Are lists of the composer's works in WP, linked from this article? If there are special catalogs (e.g. Köchel for Mozart, Hoboken for Haydn), are they used? If the composer has written more than 20-30 works, any exhaustive listing should be placed in a separate article. Contains discography. Is this equivalent to a list of works? (Did he write things he didn't record?) ===Critical appreciation=== Does the article discuss his/her style, reception by critics and the public (both during his/her life, and over time)? Decent description of stylistic development. No real critical or popular reception. Influences on him and by him are covered. ===Illustrations and sound clips=== Does the article contain images of its subject, birthplace, gravesite or other memorials, important residences, manuscript pages, museums, etc? Does it contain samples of the composer's work (as composer and/or performer, if appropriate)? (Note that since many 20th-century works are copyrighted, it may not be possible to acquire more than brief fair use samples of those works, but efforts should be made to do so.) If an article is of high enough quality, do its images and media comply with image use policy and non-free content policy? (Adherence to these is needed for Good Article or Featured Article consideration, and is apparently a common reason for nominations being quick-failed.) OK. Images used are PD, could use some more. No audio clips. ===References, sources and bibliography=== Does the article contain a suitable number of references? Does it contain sufficient inline citations? (For an article to pass Good Article nomination, every paragraph possibly excepting those in the lead, and every direct quotation, should have at least one footnote.) If appropriate, does it include Further Reading or Bibliography beyond the cited references? Article is minimally referenced and footnoted. One direct quote is not cited. ===Structure and compliance with WP:MOS=== Does the article comply with Wikipedia style and layout guidelines, especially WP:MOS, WP:LEAD, WP:LAYOUT, and possibly WP:SIZE? (Article length is not generally significant, although Featured Articles Candidates may be questioned for excessive length.) Mostly OK. Lead is short, and there are content-related structural issues. See summary. ===Things that may be necessary to pass a Good Article review=== Article requires more inline citations (WP:CITE) Article lead needs work (WP:LEAD) Article footer material needs organization (WP:LAYOUT) Article needs (more) images and/or other media (MOS:IMAGE) Article prose needs work (WP:MOS) ===Summary=== This article gives a fairly good musical overview of the man. Outside of his early life, it is significantly lacking in personal detail. For example, only occasional mention is made of where he is living at some time. Was he married? mistress? gay? children? when? Where did he live? when? for how long? Discussions of his musical career and style are covered throughout the article, in a confusing way. Each major section (Biography, Musical style, Musical career) seems to contain at least some material that would be more appropriate in one of the other sections. A reorganization of the factual materials in the article may be appropriate. The lead is too short for an article of this length, and does not (according to WP:LEAD) cover the major points of the article. There are two images; more might be nice (although they need not be of Piazzolla). The infobox picture is poor quality; it might be worth trying to locate a PD/free-to-use image of higher quality. There are no sound or video clips in the article (only external links). While the article contains a discography, there is nothing but a short summary of his compositional output. While his discography may cover the majority of his compositions, it is not necessarily comprehensive in that respect. (The discography is long enough that it may warrant an article of its own, especially if there is enough published material on those works.) In my opinion this is a B-class article, but it needs a lot of work. Enriching the biography with personal details, reorganizing, and expanding on critical and popular reception are the tasks to focus on. Magic♪piano 14:04, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Last edited at 13:26, 13 August 2013 (UTC). Substituted at 14:17, 1 May 2016 (UTC)