Talk:Arvanitika/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

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"Arvanites are those whose mother tongue is Arvanitika (name in Greek - Áñâáíßôåò)/ Arberichte (name in their language); most linguists use the word Albanian for that language, but the community loathes its use, and it is therefore advisable that this sensitivity be taken into consideration unless researchers and/or human and minority rights activists do not mind alienating the very community they are studying. Likewise, they call themselves Arvanites (in Greek) and Arberor (in their language); but in Northwestern Greece, in their language, they use the term Shqiptar (the same used by Albanians of Albania), a term strongly disliked by the other Arvanites, who also resent being called Albanians."http://www.greekhelsinki.gr/english/reports/arvanites.html--Theathenae 00:31, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Investigating Obsolescence: Studies in Language Contraction and Death edited by Nancy C Dorian. The Albanian speakers of Greece are bilingual in Modern Greek and the local variety of Albanian known as Arvanítika; the latter belongs to the southern or Tosk dialect of the language. Arvanítika speakers are the descendants of settlers of Albanian ancestry who migrated to what is now Greece during the later period of the Byzantine empire, and lived in enclaved communities but not completely out of contact with the Greek-speaking populations. Relative geographical isolation, along with a socio-economically self-sufficient way of life, played a decisive role in the retention of the language for a period of almost five centuries. Albanau 00:57, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Albanau, please read what you quote, you will do us all a favor. From the link you provided: "Sociolinguistic research conducted in two communities in southern Greece ... shows that people past their 50's on the average have a good command of the language (Tsitsipis 1983 and 1988)". That was 20 years ago. Today it would read "people past their 70's". Which is exactly what I wrote ("septuagenarians and octuagenarians"). Half of these people researched by Tsitsipis in the 1980's are dead (life expectancy in Greece is 78) , and in ten years they will all be dead. So please do not invent differences of opinion where there are none. Chronographos 12:23, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Albanau, why do you keep changing "Arvanite Greeks" to "Arvanite" plain?

Have you ever seen, talked to or lived among Arvanite Greeks? Chronographos 15:31, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Albanau is right in stating that Arvanites are already Greek citizens. What's there to discuss about that? Are you claiming, on the other hand, that Arvanites do not have Albanian roots? The Greek state may not recognize minorities, but we have already provided neutral sources about the case. What would you call an Albanian people that came from Albania, speaks an Albanian dialect and upholds Albanian traditions? Can their nation of origin be just erased? Is nationality of any people just some sort of paper that one can declare on his own, or what? The distinction made here is obvious that refers to Greek citizens, but to those Greek citizens of Albanian descent. These specific Greek citizens are called Arvanites in Greek, Arbërorë in their own language of origin and Arbërorë in Standard Albanian. --Grymnir 07:44, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Gee, yet another mysterious sockpuppet ...

Wonder what his IP is  :-))) Chronographos 14:45, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Use of Arvanitika, Arbërishte is supressed by state (as of all other minorities in Greece)

"Likewise, Arvanitika has never been included in the educational curricula of the modern Greek state. On the contrary, its use has been strongly discouraged at schools (and in the army) through physical punishment, humiliation, or, in recent years, simple incitation of the Arvanitika users (Williams, 1992:86; Trudgill, 1983:130-1). Such attitudes have led many Arvanite (as well as Vlach, and Macedonian) parents to discourage their children from learning their mother tongue so as to avoid similar discrimination and suffering (Trudgill, 1983:130)." Source: http://www.greekhelsinki.gr/english/reports/arvanites.html --Grymnir 17:43, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

"One reason for such a slow movement is the apparent hostility of the Greek state to such ‘revivals’ among Arvanites, Vlachs, and Macedonians, which is indicated by police disruption of festivals (in Macedonia), and harassment of musicians who play and sing songs in minority languages; as well as by the tolerance -by the state and particularly its judiciary- of public calls, printed in the press, to use violence against those musicians; likewise, human and minority rights activists have been the object of similar threats (Stohos, 20/7/1994 and in previous issues, where even the European Union’s Euromosaic project -to report on the status of the linguistic minorities in the EU- was attacked)." Source: http://www.greekhelsinki.gr/english/reports/arvanites.html --Grymnir 17:46, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Please notice how old this "data" is, ranging from the 70's mostly, to the early 90's. Also notice that you invoke "Stohos", a fascist periodical that has since been banned for inciting racism. If one looks for enemies, rather than allies, one can find them very easily. Chronographos 19:59, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Here used to be my comment for Pangalos, where he explained why Arvanites in Greece weren't and couldn't be suppressed, but someone thought he should place his comments first instead. The reader can see what I wrote, scrolling down this page.MATIA 08:05, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

The gradual emergence of the Modern Greek nation-state after the revolution against Ottoman rule (1821) signaled the beginning of minority-language status for Arvanítika. The use of Greek in education, government, and bureaucracy in general led to specific negative attitudes twoards Arvanítika which over time were adopted by the speakers of the language too. --Albanau 23:35, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

These data are a part of those presented and that both concerned parties can use. Furthermore we, as Albanians, are making use of the Greek HRWC! We are using Greek data among other! I don't know how much more neutral than this it can get. Albanau has already provided other neutral sources in this very page. The facts are that Greece has, reportedly, not recognized minorities within its own establishment for years. The data make use of historical evidence and give also references. '70-'90 is a a very objective chronology and recent too by historical standards. If you have other neutral, more recent(!) information on the case, naturally you can contribute to the article. But what you and Theathenae are now doing is just deleting or preveting existing information and contributions to the topic. Is wikipedia a place to add information or to prevent it from being shown? --Grymnir 07:44, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

I think Grymnir can understand the greek proverb, "don't try to hide behind your finger". Both here and in Arvanites article, Tosks are mentioned, and though different from Ghegs, they are Albanians. But it seems you would prefer to replace the reference to Tosks with Albanians, or even call Arvanites plain vanilla Albanians, but that would be untrue.MATIA 08:11, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Where did I do such thing? Arvanites are Greek citizens! I thinks that's already clear! You are pushing inaccuracies, don't do that! Tosk is an Albanian dialect, what would a user from Japan think while reading "Arvanitic is a dialect of Tosk"? It helps claryfying within the phrase that "Arvanitic is a dialect of Albanian Tosk dialect". What are you afraid of? When I say "this Black Box" instead of just "this Box" am I doing a crime or claryfying things out?--Grymnir 08:59, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Pangalos on Arvanites

Theodoros Pangalos (grandson of Theodoros Pangalos) said during the presentation of the book Arvanitic Songs by Thanasis Moraitis: "...it is a whole culture that we are losing, not of course under any oppression, because noone oppressed us. Who would oppress Arvanites in Greece? Arvanites are leaders in Greece. Their usual professions are prime ministers, generals, admirals etc. And they are landlords of Athens, and thus became rich from the price gain of their farms as building plots. MATIA 23:03, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Hehehehe, Pangalos wanted to be head honcho, like his grandfather, but he missed the train!  :-))) Chronographos 23:10, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Theodoros Pangalos doesnt represent the Arvanites people!...

Really? Says who? You? Pangalos is an Arvanite and has been elected a MP for Attica (usually topping the list) for 9 consecutive elections and 24 consecutive years; he has been Deputy Foreign Minister for 5 years, Foreign Minister for 3 years, and has run for Mayor of Athens. I think he eminently qualifies to "represent" the Arvanites as he has been consistently getting their votes more than anyone else. Chronographos 23:55, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Investigating Obsolescence: Studies in Language Contraction and Death Cambridge University Press by Nancy C Dorian.

Pangalos doesn't represent Arvanites, you wrote. Pangalos is an Arvanitis. Do you think you represent Arvanites? Does Albania's goverment officials represent Arvanites? I've met and talked with many Arvanites, and most (if not all) of them, get very angry if you call them Albanians, or when they read during the 90's statements from Albania's officials that Arvanites are an albanian minority in Greece.MATIA

Κατά την παρουσίαση του έργου μίλησε ο Θόδωρος Πάγκαλος, ο οποίος δεν μάσησε τα λόγια του:

«Εμείς που γεννηθήκαμε σε σπίτια όπου η γιαγιά μας μιλούσε αυτή τη γλώσσα, γνωρίζουμε ότι δεν είναι -όπως λένε οι εθναμύντορες σήμερα- ελληνικά με λίγες ξένες λέξεις. Είναι αλβανικά κανονικά του 14ου αιώνα. Αυτό το πιστοποιούν εξάλλου και οι σημερινοί μορφωμένοι μετανάστες Αλβανοί, οι οποίοι, όταν πηγαίνουν στα Μεσόγεια, λένε "μα εσείς μιλάτε αρχαία αλβανικά". Κι αυτό είναι πολύ γνωστό από γλωσσολογική άποψη, διότι αυτοί οι Αρβανίτες του 14ου αιώνα που ήλθαν στα νότια της Βαλκανικής μέσα στα πλαίσια της Βυζαντινής Αυτοκρατορίας...

...Αυτή είναι κάπως σαν μια χαμένη πατρίδα για μας, γιατί είναι ένας ολόκληρος πολιτισμός, τον οποίο χάνουμε, όχι βέβαια κάτω από καμιά καταπίεση, γιατί κανείς δεν μας καταπίεζε. Ποιος άλλωστε θα καταπίεζε τους Αρβανίτες στην Ελλάδα; Οι Αρβανίτες ηγούνται της Ελλάδας. Συνήθως τα επαγγέλματα που ασκούν είναι πρωθυπουργοί, στρατηγοί, ναύαρχοι, κ.λπ. Και είναι και ιδιοκτήτες της πρωτεύουσας, επομένως πλούτισαν από τη μεγάλη αξία που έλαβαν τα χωράφια τους ως οικόπεδα.

...Αλλά οι ίδιοι εφόνευσαν το παρελθόν τους, διότι -φανατικά πεισμένοι ότι είναι Ελληνες- με τη βοήθεια των γλωσσαμυντόρων και των δασκάλων εγκατέλειψαν και εξαφάνισαν το γλωσσικό αυτό ιδίωμα, το οποίο πια κανείς δεν μιλάει, τουλάχιστον από την ηλικία μου και κάτω».Link to relevant article

These are what Mr. Pangalos also stated in his above mentioned speech! Should I translate it for other non-Greek-speaking users? Why do you choose to report partial information and not give any sources when submitting anything, Matia.gr? Despite that, Pangalos does not represent the Arvanite Community in Greece, a community is represented by its respective Organizations, and the Organizations of Arvanites in Greece as also mentioned in the HRWarticle are:

A congress was held in 1985. Four cultural associations have been created: the Arvanitikos Syndesmos Hellados (the Arvanite League of Greece) which has been publishing, since 1983, the bimonthly Besa (in Greek); the Kentro Arvanitikou Politismou (Center for Arvanite Culture); the Arvanitikos Syllogos Ano Liosion (Arvanite Association of Ano Liosia); and the Syllogos Arvaniton Corinthias (Association of Arvanites of Corinthia). Books on Arvanite culture have been published. Church reading and chanting in some Arvanite villages has been reported (Williams, 1992:87). Finally, we had the release of a CD with Arvanite music mentioned above. Overall, though, this movement is weaker than similar ones among Vlachs and Macedonians (and certainly among officially recognized Turks).

One reason for such a slow movement is the apparent hostility of the Greek state to such ‘revivals’ among Arvanites, Vlachs, and Macedonians, which is indicated by police disruption of festivals (in Macedonia), and harassment of musicians who play and sing songs in minority languages; as well as by the tolerance -by the state and particularly its judiciary- of public calls, printed in the press, to use violence against those musicians;

Unless anyone else provides other information that disqualifies this, this continues to hold up also the facts of state banishing against these people. Should need arise and time abound, I will try to bring more information coming from their publications after properly translating them. --Grymnir 07:44, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Thank you, Grymnir, I looked for that passage at Pangalos' website but couldn't find it. Notice how he concludes: "But they (the Arvanites) killed their past because, fanatically convinced of their own Greekness, and helped by language-defenders and teachers, they abandoned this idiom and made it extinct, and it is now spoken by no one, at least younger that my age". So much for persecution. Pangalos calls his fellow Arvanites "fanatical Greeks". How much must Albanau hate him ... Please also notice, in the HRW reference you provide, how nothing concrete is mentioned. As for the press, and the "calls for violence" therein: you must not be familiar with how free press functions. There is no censorship in Western democracies. If a newspaper editor, or a correspondent, wants to write something and the newspaper approves, no power on earth can stop the publication. Only if a crime is being committed are the courts allowed to intervene. Still newspapers are usually aquitted in court, as lawsuits against the press are often viewed as threats to the liberty of the Fourth Estate. Chronographos 09:05, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Grymnir, it seems that you are the one who made the talk page a mess, please don't to the same to the article. You may translate it for non-Greek readers, but anyone who can read Greek can see that my translation was accurate, and I'm guessing that if you have translated the above you have mis-translated the word Turks, or perhaps this is your comment. Hundreds CD and Vinyl Disks have been released with Arvanitik songs. And as Arvanites have chosen not to speak or even learn Arvanitic language, the phrase "Spoken in: Greece" is not that accurate. Finally, neither one Arvanitis nor any Arvanitic group or organization will agree with you and your claims Grymnir.

ps I've wrote what and when Pangalos said, and I guess it was reproduced in many newspapers because it was a news conference for a book, so don't tell me I didn't provide sources. MATIA 08:22, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

I didn't do anything to the article except moving one answer of Albanau's under a different title, because the same issue was being discussed under two titles. I didn't accuse you of improper translation. I meant my own translation in English of possible forecoming material of Arvanites' own publications. What I accused you is that you took just an OPINION and brought it here as a fact, and leaving out of that material data very relevant to the issue in hand. Your wishful thinking that no Arvanite and no Arvanite Organization will agree with me, conflicts with already presented data! Why would we be talking about this Arvanitic language that doesn't exist at all, but "magically" is somehow reported all over the internet and various euroepan publications, cds, books etc., coming in/about that language?! Unless you provide facts, your claims are just claims! "I am an Alien from Outer Space." Should I write that down on Wikipedia as a fact?! Get a grip people! --Grymnir 08:50, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

If one were to follow Albanau's writing on UCK and its "Greek subsidiary", one could write there is an "unconfirmed report that you are an Alien from Outer Space". No one in their right mind suggests that Arvanitic does not exist! Arvanitic is almost extinct, as Pangalos himself stated: notice how he mentions his grandmother as the last Arvanitic-fluent member of his family. This alone takes us back to the 1930's. If you want to blame the Greek state and the Greek people (including the Arvanites) for what has happened since then, or before, be my guest. But this 2005. What has happened, has. The current situation is rather straightforward: once a few septuagenarians and octuagenarians die, no Arvanite speakers will be left in Greece. I guess this is sad in a way, as a language, any language, is a form of cultural wealth. The same has happened to many regional languages and dialects throughout Europe. It's the inevitable course of events in an era dominated by radio and television. Efforts to revive those languages have taken place, but unless the young are willing to go along, these languages are destined to become museum pieces. Quod Erat Demonstrandum. Chronographos 10:11, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

acknowledge neutral source

Albanian language (Encyclopædia Britannica Article) Dialects

All of the Albanian dialects spoken in Italian and Greek enclaves are of the Tosk variety and seem to be related most closely to the dialect of Çamëria in the extreme south of Albania.

Linguistic Anthropology of Praxis and Language Shift: Arvanitika (Albanian) and Greek in Contact Oxford University Press by Lukas D Tsitsipis

Arvanítika, a variety of Tosk Albanian spoken in Greece for more than four centuries....

Macedonian Conflict: Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World Princeton University Press by Loring M. Danforth

There is also a small group of Arvanites, who speak a dialect of Albanian and who, like the Vlach, have developed a strong sense of Greek national identity.

Investigating Obsolescence: Studies in Language Contraction and Death Cambridge University Press edited by Nancy C Dorian.

The Albanian speakers of Greece are bilingual in Modern Greek and the local variety of Albanian known as Arvanítika; the latter belongs to the southern or Tosk dialect of the language. Arvanítika speakers are the descendants of settlers of Albanian ancestry who migrated to what is now Greece during the later period of the Byzantine empire, and lived in enclaved communities but not completely out of contact with the Greeak-speaking populations.

Every neutral sources say that the Arvanitic language is variety of Tosk Albanian. Enough said!

Albanau 22:43, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

the phrase "their language", that you restored, is inacurate.

Arvanitika is partially intelligible to speakers of Tosk. Dialects are perceived as unintelligible to speakers of other dialects... The language is heavily influenced by Greek. from Ethnologue but you probably have read that before.

Arvanitika is not Tosks' language and is not Greek. Or maybe it's both. If they choose to speak modern albanian, the phrase "their language" would again be inacurate.

Have you read divide and rule? Can you see anything relevant with the politics (deep) behind all those "edit wars"?

George Kastriotis said his ancestors were from Epirus. Tosks and Ghegs are not the same phara (I 'm not sure if this should be translated to tribe or clan). We could talk for a long time, but I'm not sure where it'll get us. MATIA 23:40, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Can you provide with any kind of source? Albanau 23:58, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

For Ghegs and Tosks there are some interesting info on the 1911 encyclopedia, I don't know if you would reject them as pov. For Kastriotis I can't help you right now, but when I'll find the book I've read or an online source, I 'll let you know.MATIA 00:29, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

1911 Encyclopedia? ? You do realize that an old Encyclopedia might have information that has since been disproven, and can no longer be used as factual information. And do you know that back then not much was know about the Albanian language and the dialects. Such as your statement made in in this talk page regarding the Albanaian language that I would like to comment on this "Tosks and Ghegs are not the same phara". Geg are those living in the north of Albania and Kosovo. Tosk is living in southern Albania and north west Greece." While you are correct in stating that the Albanian population are divded in two Geg and Tosk , you are highly erred and have angered me by stating that they are so different that "they as people with origin and the dialects can be considered separate languages and not the same people" and have further angered me in bringing Greece in this separatist and schismatic description of the Albanian people and Albanian language, also in regards of the Arvanites and Arvanítik language: a variety of Tosk Albanian. --Albanau 00:44, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

You see, MATIA, you should not anger Albanau! Albanau's feelings should not be messed with because they are holy. Not to mention secret. Chronographos 01:40, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Are you inflating your ego enough already by judging others about their use of English? It's obvious he is using the "argument" of offense to his national history. This "argument" on its own does not hold, just as Theathenae's "argument" of "loathing" mentioned right below, does not hold either. Further, Gheg and Tosk are not tribes, but study-specific categorizations based on the variety within the national tradition of Albania. Do not troll this article any further. If someone wants to discuss about this scholar-made division, you can use the respective articles' pages. That's what Wikipedia is about, I think: Sharing knowledge!--Grymnir 07:44, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Speak for yourself. Theathenae's point is quite valid: if you invoke a document, you cannot really pick and choose its content according to your convenience. As I have often said before, I am not participating in any part of the Tosk/Gheg/Arvanite dispute because I know nothing about Tosk/Gheg/Arvanite linguistically. And, yes, one's understanding of English is crucial in a discussion: witness how Albanau tells me that I "don't know what I'm talking about" just because his English is so poor that he cannot understand what I write. Chronographos 11:44, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Albanau's edit summary title: "There is no such term as Arvanites Greeks ...."

All citizens of Greece are Greeks, by definition. Ethnic, linguistic, religious, ancestral or what-have-you qualifiers do not change this. The same is true about the French, the Japanese, the Cubans etc. To illustrate it with an example, a Palestinian (Muslim or Christian) citizen of Israel is an Israeli, although he or she may not identify with the predominantly Jewish character of the state of Israel. Contrast this with the uniform self-identification of Arvanite Greeks as Greeks. Here not only is the technical prerequisite (citizenship) fulfilled, but also the mental one. I understand that this is difficult to fathom by someone who writes that there is an "Albanian Liberation Army" operating in Greece. Chronographos 23:38, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Chronographos, are you calling me an Albanian terrorist sympathiser? You know that you have been reported?, The term Arvanites Greek is your invention, and just read again what you wrote above it is totally confusing and your not sure what you are talking about, keep it outside the article. Albanau 23:59, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Determining whether you are a terrorist sympathiser or not is really a rather straightforward affair: you just state whether you are or are not. I asked you and you responded that you are "intitled to keep it a secret". You can also prove that you are not a terrorist sympathiser by deleting the reference in the Swedish Wikipedia about a "Chameria Liberation Army" operating in Greece: a statement that you wrote in December 2004 and still stands in the UCK article in Swedish. As for my statement above, which you find "confusing", it is perfectly clear to anyone with a reasonably good understanding of English. If it confuses you, it is not my fault. Lastly, it makes no difference to me that you reported me, as you say. You have already reverted this article 4 times within 51 minutes, and the last time you did so, you chose to revert my neutral edits. Be that as it may: I believe in arguing cogently, not fighting willy-nilly. Chronographos 00:11, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

I revert the article cause you refused to talk about it in the talk page. And if you have problem witht the swedish article UÇK, discuss it on the swedish Wikipedia. Don't take it up here, it so irrelevent and you will not reach your goal. And may I remind you that you have been reported cause of personal attacks, if you continue I think they will give you a peramant ban according to the rules! Albanau 00:52, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

No, Albanau, you cannot decide by yourself what is off-topic just because it's embarrassing to you. I have contributed 8 times in this talk page, and plan to continue to do so. Your having broken the 3RR is unimportant to me, but I was disappointed to see that you chose to revert my last NPOV edit "are not learning the language any more" with a rather extreme "have been unwilling or forbidden to learn their language". Disappointed, but not surprised. Are your feelings about the UCK groups still a "secret"? Chronographos 01:13, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

You didin't give the reason why they are not learning the language any more. --Albanau 01:30, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

All the Arvanites I know, and I know many because one of my 5 homes is in an Arvanite village, are uninterested: they think it's a limited and ugly-sounding language. They especially dislike the "sh" sound. One girl told me it sounds "gross and unladylike"! Chronographos 01:37, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Are these facts and arguments?!!! Guys please, are you serious when you write these "facts" down an internet encyclopaedia?--Grymnir 07:44, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

I really don't have much to add to the opening paragraph of the Greek Helsinki report. The Arvanites "loathe" the association with the word "Albanian", so I rephrased the wording to take into account their sensitivities. Nowhere is the link with Albania denied or clouded, but it appears that Albanian extremists are only satisfied if a specifically Albanian identity is projected onto the Arvanites, ignoring what the Arvanites themselves think. This is ultimately a case of whether or not the Arvanites have a right not to have themselves and their language called Albanian, in the same way that the Croats have the right not to have themselves and their language called Serbian, and the Inuit have the right not to be called Eskimos. As for the Arvanitic language being "forbidden", this is patently ridiculous, as there are no laws in Greece regulating what language should be spoken in the home. The Arvanites can and do learn their language informally. Mirroring the situation faced by many other lesser-used languages around the world, the trend in recent years has been towards abandoning the language in favour of Greek and more "useful" foreign languages such as English.--Theathenae 05:37, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

This issue has been addressed with respective references all over the page. Unless if you have some agenda to push, or a problem discerning fact from fiction and personal preference. Your interpretations conflict with neutral data presented. --Grymnir 07:44, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Albanau please check 1911 encyclopedia, the old encyclopedia I mentioned is a previous version of Britanica. I wrote that Ghegs and Tosks aren't the same phara and it seems that this have angered you. I'll give you a similar example in Ancient Greece: Spartans and Athenians weren't the same tribe but both where Greeks. I've read in the past about Arvanites and Albania and I've talked with many Arvanites in Greece. I used the word phara (I already said that I don't know if this should be translated as tribe or clan or perhaps group of families) the way Arvanites use it.

Grymnir anyone checking article's history can understand who is trying to push his agenda. I've wrote before "Arvanitika is not Tosks' language and is not Greek. Or maybe it's both. If they choose to speak modern albanian, the phrase their language would again be inacurate." and it's about the same with Pangalos saying (in the greek text you provided to prove what?) that Arvanitika is like ancient Albanian.MATIA 08:39, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

1911 information is outdated and user Albanau has provided newer references. I am not angry of anything except for the fact that some of the people here are making a big fuss about... what? Arvanites are of Albanian origin. Arbëror means just of Arbëria, of Albania. Thei language is classified as old Albanian, a variety of Tosk dialect as also is the Arbëresh, or Arbëror language in Italy. These people were Albanians that moved from Albania to Greece and Italy and kept their traditions and language up to now. Of course their language has incorporated Italian and Greek words for newer concepts and inventions, but what does this have to do with the fact that these languages are Albanian sub-dialects spoken by ethnic Albanians in Greece and Italy? They are Greeks and Italians, no one disputes that, but they have Albanian descent! What is that hard to grasp out of this? What is all the fuss about? Arvanites with Moraiti songs attended the folkloric festival of Albanian songs in 2004 for God's sake, where ethnic Albanians from Montenegro, Bosnia, Italy, Greece, Kosovo, FYROM, etc along with, normally, Albanian citizens themselevs were taking part. --Grymnir 09:13, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Oops, you just got caught: ...are Albanian sub-dialects spoken by ethnic Albanians in Greece. You wish. Arvanites are not ethnic Albanians. Arvanites came from mixed marriages (between Greeks and Albanians) many centuries ago, yet they have their own history that clearly seperates them from the present term ethnic Albanians. You mocked other people's opinions and now you try to prove your point with a song festival?MATIA 09:41, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

I just got what? Playing games are you? Is this your passtime to distort historical by facts by personal wishes? You are all and again conflicting historical reference presented by Greeks themselves!

History of the community and the language

The first Christian Albanian migrations to what is today Greek territory took place as early as the XI-XII centuries (Trudgill, 1975:5; Banfi, 1994:19), although the main ones most often mentioned in the bibliography happened in the XIV-XV centuries, when Albanians were invited to settle in depopulated areas by their Byzantine, Catalan or Florentine rulers (Tsitsipis, 1994:1; Trudgill, 1975:5; Nakratzas, 1992:20-24 & 78-90; Banfi, 1994:19). According to some authors, they were also fleeing forced Islamization by the Turks in what is today Albania (Katsanis, 1994:1). So, some have estimated that, when the Ottomans conquered the whole Greek territory in the XV century, some 45% of it was populated by Albanians (Trudgill, 1975:6). Another wave of Muslim Albanian migrations took place during the Ottoman period, mainly in the XVIII century (Trudgill, 1975:6; Banfi, 1994:19). All these Albanians are the ancestors of modern-day Arvanites in Central and Southern Greece.

Very little is known about the Albanian presence in Thrace; it was probably a spill-over of the many migrations mentioned above. Anyhow, there were many Albanians in Eastern Thrace and in the adjacent Western Thrace department of Evros. The former, as Christians, were relocated in Greece during the compulsory exchange of Christians and Muslims between modern-day Turkey and Greece in the 1920’s: many settled in the Salonica department.

As for the Arvanites of Epirus and Western Macedonia, they are considered to be part of the modern Albanian nation (Banfi, 1994:20), something which perhaps explains their self-identification as Shqiptars rather than Arberor. When frontiers were drawn up in the early XX century, some Christian and Muslim Albanians were left in Greek territory, just as some Greeks were left in Albanian territory. An important part of these Albanians, the Muslim Chams, fled Greece towards the end of World War II, as many had collaborated with the occupying forces and were, as a result, persecuted by Greek resistance.

"Arbëria" means just and only "Albania" in Albanian Language! "Arbëror" means "Albanian". Now what childish comment will you add below these?

In this page there are two positions:

One that is based upon:

Greek Helsinki HWR - Which can't really be considered neutral still being Greek, but yet we have settled on it.

Albanian language (Encyclopædia Britannica Article) Dialects

Linguistic Anthropology of Praxis and Language Shift: Arvanitika (Albanian) and Greek in Contact Oxford University Press by Lukas D Tsitsipis

Macedonian Conflict: Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World Princeton University Press by Loring M. Danforth

Investigating Obsolescence: Studies in Language Contraction and Death Cambridge University Press edited by Nancy C Dorian.

And one based on:

The opinions of a politician - who still says that Arvanitic is Albanian

Encyclopaedia Britannica 1911(!) that doesn't say anything about the topic.

Where are your verifiable data please? Why are you trolling this article? Chronographos mentions above that this language is extinct? BRING THE DATA PLEASE!!! FACTS!!! ARGUMENTS!!! Any replicas will not be responded anymore and trolls will be reported. Regards!--Grymnir 10:36, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Your shouting and threats will get you nowhere. You may holler, scream and report all you want. It will make no difference. What you may not do is falsify: I never said "extinct". I said "almost extinct" and italicized it myself for emphasis. it seems your English reading comprehension is not a whole lot better than Albanau's. Is this a mere coincidence?

As for the 45% figure, two things: more than 5 centuries have passed since the Ottomans conquered the Balkans. Since then populations have shifted and migrated for a million reasons. If you want to establish an Albanian ancestry for almost half of the current Greek population, genetics research does not support it. It is irrelevant to language matters, but feel free to look it up. Chronographos 11:57, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Grymnir you're unbelievable. You may report whatever you want but don't you ever again call me a troll. Keep such characterizations for yourself. My contributions in this talk page and in the whole wikipedia project can speak for themselves. I've checked yours and if (or when) admins come to check who is trolling, they will find them very interesting. Arvanites whether you like it or not are ethnic Greeks and you may go and check the opinions of all those cultural organizations of Arvanites that you mentioned before. I won't go on repeating the facts that are already written if you are unable to read the talk page. Arvanites are (or actually were, since the majority of Arvanites speak only Greek for the reasons I've mentioned before) a language group minority, they are self-identified as Greeks and they have their own history.MATIA 12:32, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

You mean he's a sockpuppet created specifically for this discussion? Who woulda thunk it! Chronographos 13:11, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

a note for George Kastriotis Skanderbeg

Dear Albanau, I've left some notes on Talk:Skanderbeg but it seems that the sources you needed are already present (I'm talking about the letters) on the external links of the article. Please check my notes and do any additions necessary to the article.MATIA 14:33, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Let's get this thing over with

Yeah, yeah, yeah we know the story, according to sources blah blah blah 30% of Greece was Albanian, 30% was Slavo-Bulgaro-Serbo-Macedonian 30% was Turkish and 10% was Romanian. Because they couldn't agree with each other, they just decided to use a neutral ethnicity and language. And now back to the real world Albanian nationalists like Albanau claim that Arvanitika is nearly dead because it's forbidden to be used in Greece. Go to this link [1] and use on online translator on this phrase: "Αρβανίτικα Τραγούδια". Arvanitika has a status of a protected language in Greece, similar to that of Tsakonic. Hence people like Albanau are nothing but ignorant nationalists who have no clue on reality. They have never been to Greece nor every met an Arvanite Greek.

And as for those people who consider Arvanites to be an "oppressed Albanian ethnic minority in Greece", I'll translate a funny quotation which I just found on a website [2] which deals with the factors of people's ethnic identities and feelings:

"Στην περιοχή που μένω, ένα μεγάλο μέρος τού πληθυσμού, ανήκει σε αυτή την κατηγορία, στους "Αρβανίτες". Μια μέρα λοιπόν, συνέβει το εξής κωμικοτραγικό. Μπροστά μου, βρισκόταν μια παρέα από Αρβανίτες. Τότε, πέρασε από εκεί ένας Βορειοηπειρώτης, τον οποίο γνώριζα, που είχε έρθει με την τελευταία αυτή μετακίνηση πληθυσμών. Μιλούσε σπαστά Ελληνικά, όμως αισθανόταν Έλληνας. Τότε, η παρέα τών Αρβανιτών, άρχισε να λέει μεταξύ τους: "Κοίτα ρε τον βρωμο-Αλβανό, που ήρθε να μας πάρει τις δουλειές! Δουλεύουν οι Αλβανοί, και δεν έχουμε δουλειές εμείς οι Έλληνες!"

<<...In the region that I live, a great part of the population belongs to this category, the "Arvanites". So one day, a comicotragic even took place. I found a group of Arvanites to be sitting in front of me. Then a Northern Epirote (Greek) that I knew passed by, he had arrived with the last population exchange. He spoke broken Greek but himself he felt fully Greek. Then, the group of Arvanites started saying between each other "Look at the dirty Albanian who came here to take our jobs! Albanians work and us Greeks stay unemployed!"...>>

That's the answer to Albanians who fantasise Arvanites as an oppressed part of the Albanian nation and claim that there's no such thing as Arvanite Greeks. End of story, I'm reverting and reporting Albanau for vandalism. Miskin 16:20, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

I appreciate if you bring quotes from Britannica, Cambridge, Princeton and Oxford University Press here for discussion as I have or other reliable sources insteed of bringing such anti- Albanian propaganda text that call Albanians dirty. Albanau 17:12, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Personally I don't consider Britannica a reliable source, well it depends on the version anyway. Whether you want to believe it or not, it was Arvanites who used the term "dirty Albanian" for a Greek immigrant from Albania. There's no biased or nationalistic overtone in the article. The author is trying to prove that a person's ethnic feeling about himself depends on many factors. Miskin 17:36, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Britannica is for sure a reliable source and also an acknowledge neutral source and the information I brought is not out of date it is from 2000/2005. What you brought was a propaganda text, the author is a propagandist. Albanau 17:52, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

The author is a partly Arvanite Greek, born and raised in an Arvanite village. There's not a sign of biasm to this text, it doesn't even refer to any foreign crowd. The fact that you cricise him without understanding what he says proves that you're the one who's biased. Miskin 17:56, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Partly Arvanite Greek? I don't understand that term! And we don't wan't others opinion or personal views of the Arvanites and the Arvanitic language incorporated in the article. His an propaganist, or who ever wrote that. Search on Britannica, Princeton, Cambridge and Oxford sources insteed! Albanau 18:13, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

It means that, as himself affirms, his grandfather was an Arvanite. The term 'Arvanite Greeks' exists and refers to contemporary Arvanites who consider themselves ethnically Greek. Deal with it. Miskin 18:17, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Even that Helsinki Human Rights Watch says that Arvanites are self-identified as Greeks and don't want to be called Albanians, why can't you understand that? You'll deny them the right for self-identification based on what? If they are self identified as Greeks and someone calls them ethnic Albanians, would he be albanian propagandist? Please respect their history. MATIA 18:20, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Matia you're wasting your time with words, this sad creature just can't take the truth. Miskin 18:37, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

I really liked your quote Albanau: Keep your views from distorting the article! Your views are by defintion subjective, and they must be kept in check within a Wikipedia article. I guess it could include you too.MATIA

just the facts

From ethnologue.com:
Arvanitika (Arvanitic) a language of Greece: Arvanitika is partially intelligible to speakers of Tosk.
Tosk a language of Albania: Reported to be inherently unintelligible with Gheg Albanian and partially intelligible with Arvanitika.
And to sum up what was previously written on those talk pages (please take the time and read them carefully): Gheg and Tosk are Albanian languages and also are the name of the Albanian people who speak them. Arvanitic is partially understandable by Tosks, and not understandable by Ghegs. From what you've shown until now it's hard for me to believe that you act in good faith, I do hope you will prove that I'm wrong. MATIA 14:20, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

Ethnologue says that Arvanitika is partially intelligible to speakers of Tosk. It doesn't say anything about Gheg. Unfortunatly, I can't really prove that, but you can't prove the reverse. I can only cite my personal experience and present this rather feeble argument: Compare Gheg with Tosk and Arvanitic. You will see that the differences between these languages is smaller than the difference between say Norwegian and Danish, and we all know that there is a degree of intelligibility between the Scandinavian languages. How can you then say that Gheg speakers can't, to a certain point, understand Arvanites or vice versa. REX 09:29, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

Stop editing the page and prove your point if you can. REX 15:36, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

I'll repeat it, just once, Tosk is reported to be inherently unintelligible with Gheg and Tosk is partially intelligible with Arvanitic, and that is according to ethnologue.com, visually it would be something like
Arvanitic < Tosk ~ Gheg. According to the wiki about the albanian language:
There are two principal dialects, the Tosk and the Gheg which are mutually intelligible depending on the level of speakers' literacy and proficiency in standard Albanian. In their purest vernacular forms, Gheg and Tosk are inherently unintelligible. ... The two dialects have phonological as well as lexicological differences.
I don't speak Albanian or Arvanitic so I can't say that Gheg speakers can't do that or the other, but I believe that's what Ethonologue and wikipedia say: A Tosk speaker can understand a bit an Arvanitic speaker, but a Gheg speaker can't. I guess this happened because Arvanites and their language evolved apart from the Tosks and the Ghegs.

Ps, I'm not editing the page and I don't have anything to prove, I hope you can understand now better what I wrote. MATIA 15:39, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

And please be carefull with your edit's summaries. I 've never pushed my pov, while you have shown some things that can be interpreted as bad faith. Please be polite. I do hope that you'll change your edits to be ok with the facts. MATIA 15:42, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

I've been looking at the facts again and I guess you're right. I apologise (I just used a word with a greek root) but that really wasn't bad faith, it was jumping to conclusions. REX 15:45, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

:) MATIA 15:49, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

I'll let you do the appropriate changes, ok? MATIA 16:08, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

anonymous pov

I removed the pov pushing by 201.36.98.16 diff and I am copying his changes here, so that can be discussed along with Talk:Arvanites.

In Greece, as minority languages are all alien (Abstand) to Greek, the use of different names for them (Arvanitika rather than Albanian, Vlach rather than Romanian, Slav rather than Macedonian) has contributed to denying their heteronomy (i.e. their dependence on the corresponding standard language) and increasing their autonomy (by assigning them the status of autonomous languages). As a result, the minority language’s vulnerability grew significantly, as well as the dissociation of the speakers’ ethnic (Arvanite, Vlach, Slavophone) identities from the corresponding national identities (Albanian, Romanian, Macedonian) which have developed in the respective modern nation-states. Today, Arvanite ethnic identity is perceived by many members of the community as distinct from that of the other Greeks who have Greek as their mother tongue but as fully compatible with Greek national identity (likewise for many Vlachs and Macedonians). A similar phenomenon has helped weaken the links between Pomaks in Greece (speaking a Bulgarian-based language) and Bulgarians, and the consequent Pomaks’ assimilation into the Turkish ethnic and, by now, national identity in Western Thrace, an assimilation here detrimental to Greece’s homogenization and anti-minority policies.

Almost all speakers of Arvanitika are today bilingual, i.e. they also speak Greek, usually fluently for the younger generations. It is widely agreed that Arvanitika today have been influenced significantly by the linguistic environment in which they have evolved, sometimes for centuries, without any contact with the Albanian communities of modern day Albania. So, it has acquired a separate (Ausbau) status from Albanian, in fact with dialectical richness; nevertheless, at least partial mutual intelligibility between Arvanite and Albanian exists. Indeed, the recent (in the early 1990’s) arrival of hundreds of thousands, mainly illegal, Albanian immigrants in Greece has led to a successful test of that mutual intelligibility, when many settled in Arvanitika villages.

A comparison with standard Albanian shows that Arvanitika has suffered reduction and simplification. Reduction here means loss of: Albanian vocabulary (often replaced by Greek words duly adapted phonetically and morphologically); prepositions (sometimes replaced by Greek ones); verbal tenses; and forms. While simplification consists of loss of case forms, connecting particles and invariable verbal forms.

On the other hand, Arvanitika is threatened with extinction. In the early 1970’s, more than 80% of the inhabitants of Arvanite villages in the Attica & Beotia departments were found to be fluent speakers of Arvanitika, though the loss of the language was more pronounced in the villages close to Athens than elsewhere; at the same time, however, the actual use of the language was more limited. Moreover, there has been a rather widespread indifference among Arvanites, as well as Vlachs and Macedonian, about the fate of their mother tongues, along with self-deprecation: they have been led by the dominant unilingual Greek culture to -usually sincerely- believe that these languages are deficient, lack proper grammatical structure, have a poor vocabulary. So, gradually, Arvanites have switched from bilingualism to a subordination of Arvanitika to Greek; and, sometimes, young people discourage their parents from speaking the language (especially in public). It is probably a correct estimate, although no studies equivalent to that of the 1970s exist, that the language is used today by middle aged people (interchanged with Greek) and by elderly people (in most contexts) and much less by the younger generation (usually when addressing older people, in strict family context, or, sometimes, too, to make fun of non-speakers). Moreover, in the Peloponnese, it seems that the users are predominantly elderly people. Experts, therefore, agree that Arvanitika in Greece is threatened with extinction more than the equivalent Arberichte language of Southern Italy, as the latter country is more tolerant and does not feel threatened by plurilingualism.

Since the 1980s, some efforts to preserve Arvanite culture have been made. A congress was held in 1985. Four cultural associations have been created: the Arvanitikos Syndesmos Hellados (the Arvanite League of Greece) which has been publishing, since 1983, the bimonthly Besa (in Greek); the Kentro Arvanitikou Politismou (Center for Arvanite Culture); the Arvanitikos Syllogos Ano Liosion (Arvanite Association of Ano Liosia); and the Syllogos Arvaniton Corinthias (Association of Arvanites of Corinthia). Books on Arvanite culture have been published. Church reading and chanting in some Arvanite villages has been reported Finally, we had the release of a CD with Arvanite music mentioned above. Overall, though, this movement is weaker than similar ones among Vlachs and Macedonians (and certainly among officially recognized Turks).

One reason for such a slow movement is the hostility of the Greek state to such ‘revivals’ among Arvanites, Vlachs, and Macedonians, which is indicated by police disruption of festivals (in Macedonia), and harassment of musicians who play and sing songs in minority languages; as well as by the tolerance -by the state and particularly its judiciary- of public calls, printed in the press, to use violence against those musicians; likewise, human and minority rights activists have been the object of similar threats, where even the European Union’s Euromosaic project -to report on the status of the linguistic minorities in the EU- was attacked). Moreover, the EBLUL’s first visit to the community was violently attacked in state-sponsored publications.

Likewise, Arvanitika has never been included in the educational curricula of the modern Greek state. On the contrary, its use has been strongly discouraged at schools (and in the army) through physical punishment, humiliation, or, in recent years, simple incitation of the Arvanitika users. Such attitudes have led many Arvanite (as well as Vlach, and Macedonian) parents to discourage their children from learning their mother tongue so as to avoid similar discrimination and suffering.

MATIA 08:13, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

All this isn't really POV. They are quotes from the Helsinki Report. The person who did this is in Brasil (from his IP). Is it possible that the whole world refer to Arvanitic this way and only the Greeks disagree! REX 09:13, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

REX why are you doing this? The helsinki report has been thoroughly examined both in this talk page and in Talk:Arvanites. You discussed the Helsinki report with other people, it's all written, perhaps you should read them again and remove the POV tag. MATIA 14:50, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

No MATIA. False facts are on the page. Facts that haven't been proven. The false facts are that Arvanitic is a language in its own right which is what ths article claims. There are no sources to support that claim. Hence it is POV. REX 15:21, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

Just another try to hide the truth about Greece

I have to react. It seems to me that this is just another try of the Greek nationalists to hide that minorities live in Greece and they have no basic human rights. Those people there have no Greek origin and they see themselves as of non-Greek origin.

Same happens with all national minorities that live in Greece (Albanians, Macedonians, Turkish, Roma etc.). They have no basic human rights in Greece. Just few years ago they were even inprisoned if they spoke their mother tongues.

I just can not understand how can the world ignore this. Every single human rights organization is criticising Greece, but the impotent politicians do not do anything about it. What a fucked up world we are living in. Macedonian 00:40, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

I tottaly support you Macedonian. I mean, how can the European union actually be in union with the violent and racistic policy of Greece? I mean, don't they (the Greeks) know the word democracy (which has roots from their land)? Oohh, I don't think so. Bomac 20:19, 30 September 2005 (UTC)