Talk:Arthur Griffith

Needs expansion

Not bad, but it needs more data about the foundation of Sinn Fein; Griffith was the main but not the only founder. This article needs to at least allude to the presence of others written out of the history books. Fergananim 15:06, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Anti-semitism

Needs more on the Limerick pogrom because of its significant as the last anti-Jewish pogrom in the British Isles. Also it highlights a strain of ultra nationalism/fascism that you could argue is still present in modern Sinn Fein. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.130.12.157 (talk • contribs) (16:14, 28 November 2005)

The entire anti-semitism section is problematic. One of the references leads to a page that no longer exists. Another leads to a Project MUSE page that requires registration, which means the majority of readers will not be able to access it. The other references all lead to articles that repeat the same assertions and accusations (Griffith's involvement in the Limerick Pogrom, for example) without any one of them offering any citation or evidence for said accusations. I would argue that this does not meet Wikipedia's guidelines and the entire section should be deleted until such time that adequate citations can be found. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 19:13, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Also needs clarification of what "involved" in the pogrom means. He was certainly involved as an influential propagandist (the chauvinistic 'Citizen' in Joyce's Ulysses is based on Griffith) who supported the boycott of Jewish businesses and printed all sorts of nastiness in his newspaper the United Irishman. He didn't go to Limerick and get personally involved. It would be interesting to mention Oliver St John Gogarty and William Bulfin, both close friends of Griffith's, who published anti-semitic material in 2 of his papers.stunion 24 April 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stunion (talk • contribs) 15:50, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

The whole narrative of the Pogrom has led to the consensus that it should be more accurately referred to as the Limerick Boycott. Huxley10 (talk) 21:50, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

The 'citizen' in Joyce's Ulysses is based on Michael Cusack, founder of the GAA, NOT Arthur Griffith.

Tonykennelly —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.45.140.15 (talk) 18:16, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

The remarks that are attributed to Griffith in Dermot Keogh's text on Jews in 20th Century Ireland (reference 7) are in actual fact written by Frank Hugh O'Donnell, writing under the pseudonym of 'Foreign Secretary' (24th Sept. 1899). O'Donnell, who was a member of the obtructionist group in Westminster in 1877, led by C.S. Parnell and J.G. Biggar, was in Paris during the 'Dreyfuss Affair' (which probably encouraged such anti-Semitic writings). The Limerick 'pogrom' is problematic as it has been called into question by Keogh as to whether or not it merits the title of 'pogrom', he concludes that it was a boycott. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.40.209.217 (talk) 12:35, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Grave

Anyone know who is buried in the plot beside Griffith's grave in Glasnevin? Dail Eireann debates in 1937 refer to the State paying #90 for the purchase and perpetual upkeep of a plot contiguous to the grave of the late President Griffith for a former member of his Ministry. The grave is unmarked. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.42.74.57 (talk • contribs) (21:48, 30 November 2005)

First Leader?

This article claims he "was the founder and first leader of Sinn Féin". I always thought he was the third leader as stated in the article on Sinn Féin ("Founder (1905) and Third leader (1908 - 17)")

Can somebody make a confirmation and correction of this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stevioli (talk • contribs) (23:13, 16 February 2006)

The Sinn Féin movement developed around the propaganda of Griffith and he was as a result its leading light. The formal Sinn Féin party was a part of the greater movement (the Sinn Féin Printing & Publishing Company run by Griffith was another part, the Sinn Féin People's Bank another) and was strictly democratic. Griffith didn't want to be the leader but reluctantly took up the position of president of the party after Edward Martyn and John Sweetman. --Stunion (talk) 08:39, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Sources

Before sticking a template in an article, I think it would be useful to state your specific concerns on the talk page, and give editors or would-be editors a chance to address them. Scolaire 20:57, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Cause of death

I see this was recently changed. There are sources for "brain haemorrhage", and also "heart attack". Any ideas? O Fenian (talk) 13:01, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

I believe both a stroke and a heart attack: Ulick O'Connor, in "Michael Collins and the Troubles", says "For a week before, his doctors had confined Griffith to a room in St Vincent's Hospital. They had observed signs of what they thought might be a stroke of a sub-arachnoid nature. But it was difficult to keep him quiet." This would suggest he had had a stroke followed by a fatal heart attack. The NYT report says heart failure while tying his shoelaces[1] - confusingly enough, Cathal Liam says "He'd suffered a cerebral haemorrhage while bending over to tie his shoelaces as he finished dressing for breakfast"[2] (but gives no sources) - Salmanazar (talk) 18:57, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

How do you suggest we word this article then? O Fenian (talk) 00:29, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

How does this look?

Suffering from overwork and strain after the long and difficult negotiations with the British government, and the work involved in establishing the Free State government, Griffith entered St. Vincent's Nursing Home, Dublin, during the first week of August 1922, following an acute attack of tonsilitis. He was confined to a room in St Vincent's by his doctors, who had observed signs of what they thought might be a subarachnoid hemorrhage, but it was difficult to keep him quiet, and he resumed his daily work in the government building. He had been about to leave for his office shortly before 10 am on 12 August 1922, when he paused to retie his shoelace and fell down unconscious. He regained consciousness, but collapsed again with blood coming from his mouth. Three doctors rendered assistance, but to no avail. Father John Lee of the Marist Fathers administered extreme unction, and Griffith expired as the priest recited the concluding prayer. His death was reported as being due to heart failure.

Salmanazar (talk) 13:11, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

References

St John Gogarty an anti semite

I would just offer this link here, here and here which my help with this edit. --Domer48_'fenian' 19:35, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

Griffith / Ó Gríobhtha

Did Griffith use Ó Gríobhtha in Gaelic? Ó Gríobhtha is the old spelling for the Clare surname Ó Gríofa, anglicized Griffey or Griffin. Griffith is a welsh surname so Griffith has no Gaelic equivalent. Art Griffith would be the correct translation of his name to Gaelic, however if he himself used Ó Gríobhtha then that's another story. Zimmer79 (talk) 16:05, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Antisemitism

I think the separate section on Griffiths should be removed and the content merged into other sections. Having it as a separate section gives undue weight and implies Griffith was the Irish equivalent of Édouard Drumont. Also the charge is often repeated by the usual crowd in the IT, Sindo and publications such as the Spectator.

His writings on the Limerick progrom and the Dreyfus case were appalling and as Maye notes Griffith's attitude at the time towards Jews is difficult because of what would happen roughly four decades later in Europe. However aside from what's mentioned in the article he didn't write all that much. Also as is noted at the end of the article he became friends with many Jews in Dublin such as Noyk and Solomons. Noyk and Solomons sister were both active supporters of the Irish Republic during the War of Independence.

CivisHibernius (talk) 22:16, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

Fifteen months later and nobody has posted to disagree with this. I propose to edit this down significantly and remove the section heading. Scolaire (talk) 14:06, 18 March 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

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Antisemitic views again

The first sentence of the Antisemitic views section says, The charge of antisemitism has often been levelled at Griffith.^[20] Reference 20 says no such thing; on the contrary it says, "Simon Sebag Montefiore exposes the role of Sinn Fein's founder in an Irish persecution of Jews", as though the charge had never been levelled before. Montefiore's 1997 article is frankly anti-Irish, and in particular anti-Sinn Féin (even trying to drag Gerry Adams into it), and provides little in the way of evidence. Does anybody know whether this charge was made by anybody before 1997? If not, it changes the nature of the debate completely, and the section will have to be edited accordingly. Scolaire (talk) 18:33, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

Since there does not appear to have been anything earlier than 1997, I have re-written the section to get rid of the weasel wording and replace it with encyclopaedic, sourced content. Scolaire (talk) 21:05, 10 February 2019 (UTC)

Quotations section

@Irishpolitical:, can you explain why you restored the Quotations section here? None of the quotes in that section are famous. Neither of the quotes attributed to him are particularly illuminating. Neither of the quotes about him are sourced. There is no convention of having a "Quotes" section in biographies: there is none in Patrick Pearse, Éamon de Valera, Michael Collins or W. T. Cosgrave. Please tell us what you think this section adds to the article that it otherwise lacks. Scolaire (talk) 14:28, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

Well you removed the consensus version which contained the quotes from the article. The quotes were sourced and were indeed a positive addition to the article. Not all biographies are exactly like. The quotes section should be restored. Irishpolitical (talk) 14:44, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

I made a bold edit, which went undisputed for over a month, despite the page having plenty of watchers, therefore my edit is the consensus version. Saying they "were indeed a positive addition to the article" is not an indication of how they add something to the article that it otherwise lacks. Saying they were "sourced" is also inaccurate as only two of the four were referenced, and anyway WP:V only says that all content that is included must be verifiable, not that everything that is verifiable must be included. You haven't made a credible case for their inclusion, so I am taking them out again. If you're that attached to the quotes, I suggest you create an Arthur Griffith page on Wikiquote, and add them there, as was done with Pearse, Collins and Dev. Scolaire (talk) 17:37, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

Antisemitism Part III

I realize I am late to this party, but it seemed there were some issues in the article that needed to be addressed; because these are important topics, I provide below the following rationale behind my bold edits; of course, I am very happy to have a constructive and good faith discussion of these important matters with editors who may see things differently.

First, I have added material from peer-reviewed publications on the topic. Second, because the Spectator is not a peer-reviewed publication, because there is plenty of peer-reviewed scholarship on this matter, and because it was not clear that Sebag Montefiore's claims added anything to this discussion that the peer-reviewed scholarship does not, I have taken the liberty of removing Sebag Montefiore's article. Third, and for similar reasons, since discussion of Griffith's antisemitic tenure at the United Irishman has been discussed quite widely in scholarship well before (and well after) Sebag Montefiore's article in 1997, I have also removed the phrase: No such claim has been made in any biography of Griffith or history of early Sinn Féin before then, or immediately afterwards.[31]. I am not an expert specifically in the historiography of Griffith or Sinn Fein, but it seemed to me that the only way this statement as it now stood in the article could be true is if scholars in other fields have discussed Griffith's antisemitism (as they have) but somehow scholars of Griffith and Sinn Fein have not (though I very much doubt this is the case, to my thinking the only thing that this would suggest is that scholars of Griffith and Sinn Fein have taken special pains to avoid this topic, which would then in itself be a cause for careful reflection.) Fourth, because it is also clearly relevant to Griffith's views on Jewish people and provides a deeper and more illuminating account of Griffith's views, it also seemed worthwhile to include Griffith's discussion of Zionists and Zionism. Again, very happy to discuss further and negotiate tweaks, revisions, etc. Publius In The 21st Century (talk) 20:14, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

Griffith isn't notable for his anti-semitism, which sadly was common in Europe at the time. Irish people were to a greater or lesser extent influenced by Antisemitism in Christianity. The section is too long, as he clearly moderated his views.2001:8A0:774C:7800:1197:1A1:F98E:5748 (talk) 09:03, 15 February 2022 (UTC)

To the contrary, Griffith is clearly notable here for his anti-semitism in that he was a quite well-known editor, publisher and journalist of his day (even before we get to his leading roles in Cumann na nGaedheal, and subsequently Sinn Féin). Moreover, in this article his reputation appears to have skated free so far of the evidence of deeply racist, pro-slavery and pro-Confederate views as found in his 'Preface to John Mitchel's Jail Journal':

https://cartlann.org/authors/john-mitchel/jail-journal/preface-by-arthur-griffith/ Maoltuile (talk) 13:25, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

Antisemitism IV

I am checking the section about the antisemitism of Griffith. I have already removed some parts, as they were not in the given source or were incorrect. That gives me fear that the whole section might be unreliable. What I like is a thorough check of the given sources to see if the text tells the same as the source. Problem is that I do not have all the sources, so I hope on some assistance. The Banner talk 22:00, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

The most recent edits (before yours) were on 9 November 2021, at the same time as the thread immediately above this one. What's notable about them is that they exclusively cite Joycean scholars. The thing is, the antisemitism thing seems to be found in Joycean studies – presumably because, as the edits state, it "has been credited with shaping various aspects of Joyce's Ulysses, especially in the 'Cyclops' episode" – but isn't mentioned in biographies of Griffith, histories of Sinn Féin or general Irish histories. This makes it UNDUE. The effect is to make it appear that Griffith was unique among public figures in the 1900s, a time when this sort of antisemitism was the norm across Europe and North America.

By the way, are you sure that the "Three Evil Influences" quote was Griffith himself, and not Frank Hugh O'Donnell? I only ask because it was me who attributed it to O'Donnell in 2019, and I can't imagine myself changing something like that without checking the source first. Scolaire (talk) 15:17, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

Griffith's attitude to Jews is dealt with by Colum Kenny is his fairly recent "The Enigma of Arthur Griffith" (Mercier, 2020). It's generally a very disappointing work but does address anti-Semitism in laborious detail Billsmith60 (talk) 10:45, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

Apart from his antisemitism, Griffith expressed, in his 1913 preface to The Jail Journal of John Mitchel (his predecessor as editor of The United Irishman), strong sympathy with Mitchel's support for slavery and opposition to the Union in the American Civil War. Griffith regarded the Enlightenment as 'humbug', regarded any concern for universal human rights as 'cant' and regarded anyone who believed in such things as 'dupes'. He suggested that, as slavery was approved in the Bible and was good enough for the Ancient Greeks and the American founding fathers, there couldn't be anything wrong with it. (This many decades after slavery was abolished and repudiated.) He went on, 'The right of the Irish to political independence never was, is not, and never can be dependent upon the admission of equal right in all other peoples.' http://www.ricorso.net/rx/az-data/authors/m/Mitchel_J/xtras/xtra3.htm Khamba Tendal (talk) 20:24, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

Antisemitism V

@CaliLandscapes63: added here some text that in my opinion is not relevant. I had removed it but the author immediately put it back, so time for more opinions on this addition. The Banner talk 20:23, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

CaliLandscapes63 created the Albert L. Altman article in August this year. He seems to be eager to make Altman more prominent in this article, but the fact that he was "widely known in the Dublin press as a successful salt merchant" is irrelevant, and the "it remains curious" wording is unencyclopaedic. I also think moving the sentence – presumably to adhere to a strict chronology – was unnecessary. I've reverted, but kept some relevant detail, the wikilink, and the book reference. Scolaire (talk) 13:33, 9 November 2023 (UTC)