Talk:Armenian genocide denial/Archive 5

Archive 1

←

Archive 3

Archive 4

Archive 5

Benny Morris & Dror Ze'evi

Two hold the view that there was not an "Armenian Genocide", but a wider "Christian Genocide" carried out by the Turks over the course of 30 years. [1] and of course the book the two wrote on the matter. Some have disputed/ criticized them for this and accuse them of denial [2]. Now this is of course a sensitive topic, involves BLP, and is rather complicated in that they essentially believe a different wider genocide occurred as opposed to the Armenian genocide, but I thought at least talking here would be good. Personally I don't think they should be included, but it is an interesting historical debate and thought it would be good to discuss. Thoughts? 3Kingdoms (talk) 00:24, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

I don't think this counts as "denial". They do not deny a genocide occurred that targeted Armenians. They merely argued that what happened to other Christians in the areas (Pontic Greeks, Assyrians...) can be considered part of the same event. Actually you can find that viewpoint on wiki not cited to them -- the three are often considered together.--Calthinus (talk) 00:59, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

That is my view as well, but the other Haaretz article, made me think that at least it was worth seeing what others think. Thanks for the response. 3Kingdoms (talk) 01:50, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

Unsourced content

"In the genocide's aftermath, incriminating documents were systematically destroyed, and denial has been the policy of every government of the Republic of Turkey, as of 2022."

This is a serious claim, Please do not make unsourced claims. Tiginbeg (talk) 07:15, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

Citations are not required in the lead, when the information is sourced in the article body. (t · c) buidhe 07:21, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

"An edict of the Ottoman government banned foreigners from taking photographs of Armenian refugees or the corpses that accumulated on the sides of the roads on which death marches were carried out. Violators were threatened with arrest. Strictly enforced censorship laws prevented Armenian survivors from publishing memoirs, prohibiting "any publication at odds with the general policies of the state"

Except for the claims of a few Armenian authors, I do not see any tangible sources. In addition, the Ottoman archives are open to everyone online.

"Around 1990, Taner Akçam, working in Germany, was the first Turkish historian to acknowledge and study the genocide."

Taner Akçam is an infamous charlatan who was known even before his involvement in the Armenian issue. He started his publishing life in 1975 in a magasine called ''Devrimci Gençlik''(revolutionary youth). This magazine was making communism and PKK propaganda. Taner Akçam was prosecuted for PKK propaganda in 1976 and was sentenced to prison for 9 years. In 1977 he escaped from prison and fled to Germany. Between 1977 to 1995 he was a fugitive in Germany. Taner Akcam was caught red handed many times trying to fabricate fake evidence as well. Tiginbeg (talk) 12:19, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

It looks fine to me, which is not surprising considering its a FA article. @Tiginbeg you might want to read WP:BLP and WP:POV. --HistoryofIran (talk) 15:02, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

All countries document events, all top officials write letters to the people below them, they send communications.

If there is no incriminating evidence present in the Turkish archives, then the logical conclusion is that either they were not kept since they were regarded as unimportant or they were cleansed. How is it possible that greeks, armenians, assyrians were eliminated with no incriminating evidence?

You said “In addition, the Ottoman archives are open to everyone online.” Do you think I am stupid? Seriously, you think that we are stupid? Are you going to show me a paper that says give food, give bread, water to the armenians?

I have heard this line many times but the turkish archives have no value in this case. Of course, the turkish government would flush all the incriminating evidence. There were some documents that a certain armenian had. Apparently, it had been passed to him by some turkish general or soldier. Sorry, I don’t remember the details since I don’t follow this stuff closely. That’s the job of genocide scholars. Taner Akçam has been given the documents and he had found some incriminating evidence. Of course, it is something that the scholar community should look at. Vmelkon (talk) 03:03, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

Vmelkon perhaps you are thinking of the Talat Pasha telegrams? (t · c) buidhe 04:48, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

That is possible. Vmelkon (talk) 23:53, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

CUP propaganda

Kozandere served as the stage for a macabre spectacle: the corpses of Armenians tortured and killed there were dressed in Muslim costume, capped with turbans, and photographed. The pictures were then reproduced and widely distributed, first in Dyarbekir, later in Istanbul, and even Germany. They were supposed to show victims of atrocities committed by the Armenian “insurgents,” “in order to incite the population against the Armeniens.” Rafael de Nogales, who spent a few days in the barracks in Dyarbekir in late June, notes that Reşid, whom he compares to a “hyena,” “killed without ever risking his own life,” and that a commander in the gendarmerie, Mehmed Asim Bey, offered him two photographs of a scene that he had “composed almost entirely of fowling-pieces easily disguised” with no other aim than to “impress the public” and convince it that the Russians had, well before the war began, furnished to “Armenians, Chaldeans, and Nestorians of the provinces of Van and Bitlis, Dyarbekir, and Urfa, considerable quantities of arms and ammunition.” This documented example, which is probably not an isolated case, gives us an idea of the propaganda methods that accompanied the Young Turks’ crimes.

— Kévorkian, The Armenian Genocide, p. 364

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Buidhe (talk • contribs) 10:53, 1 July 2021 (UTC)