Talk:Armenian Secret Army for the Liberation of Armenia/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Removed Armenian "Reality--Kagan the Barbarian 08:42, 18 March 2006 (UTC)" Links

The links read "Armenian Reality" and "Another Armenian Reality" and linked to POV websites. You can put them back up when there are Armenian POV links up there as well. Hakob 04:15, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

I removed them again, the website is grossly POV.--Moosh88 08:13, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

We can put them as long as we state they are Turkish POV. It is a bloody link, you can't censor it. See links given on Armenian Genocide.--Kagan the Barbarian 08:36, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

And feel free to add Armenian POV links and state they are Armenian perspective. Regards.--Kagan the Barbarian 08:42, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

POV is not welcome on any Wikipedia article, therefore we will not be adding any Armenian POV to this article. Sites that support the Armenian Genocide are not POV, since it is historical fact, the sites you posted for this article are outlandish at best. They don't need to be included.--Moosh88 09:14, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

There are Turkish POV links on the Armenian Genocide page. Wikipedia doesn't allow adult content as well but this doesn't prevent users from giving links to adult websites. As I said you can give link to any page as long as it is relevant to current article and contains a warning if necessary (such as Adult Content, or POV etc). Instead of deleting those links, add some Armenian POV links.--Kagan the Barbarian 10:08, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Can you explain to me why this page needs either an Armenian or Turkish POV link? What use does it serve?--Moosh88 20:05, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Because their main targets were Turkish diplomats. Both sites contain information about these murders although from Turkish perspective.--Kagan the Barbarian 07:05, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

But why do you need to link to a site which is so blatently anti-Armenian?--Moosh88 07:19, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Tall Armenian Tale is removed by Eupator, if it was debated before and that is the conclusion then I respect that. The other stays. Cheers.--Kagan the Barbarian 07:49, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

You didn't answer my question.--Moosh88 09:06, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

How is it anti-Armenian? I haven't seen both sites.--Kagan the Barbarian 09:30, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Are you serious? It's denying the Genocide, and claiming that Armenia commited terrible atrocities against Turks and Azeris. I'm sorry but this link has to be erased,for it's very biased and offending to the memory of those who died in the Genocide and their descendants.

Didn't they?Search for "Hocali village" on the net.I'm tired placating you double-standard lovers.And I did myself correct your pitiful moronic grammar.And by denying the Hocali Massacre,you are offensive to me.--Turkish Legacy 22:37, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

I will let you edit the link, please do so as soon as you can.--Moosh88 19:04, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Armenian Diaspora

• There ought to be a separate article on the Armenian Diaspora, as there is for diasporas in general.

• This is a very sensitive topic. That a genocide was conducted against the Armenian people by the Ottoman Army between 1915-1917 is not generally disputed in academic circles outside Turkey. It can be argued that such atrocities are common the formation of all states. However, the relatively recent period of state formation has made critical discussions particulary contentious in Turkey. It is a shibboleth of Turkish civil society to deny that atrocities against national minorities accompanied formation of the modern Turkish state. The dispute was bound to turn up in an article like this.

I have removed the following partisan quote from the main page for violating the POV rule. I'm leaving it on the talk page as an example of unsubstatiated argument and propaganda primer.

"- Significant event: * On 27 January 1973, the Armenians in the United States as well as around the world launched a brutal terrorism campaign against the Turks and the Turkish institutions to validate forcibly a mythical genocide believed only by themselves through blood-shed and violence. That day, an old Armenian man by the name Yanikian invited two Turkish diplomats from the Los Angeles Consulate to a luncheon in Santa Barbara. It turned out that the invitation was a dastardly ambush; he killed both diplomats brutally in the restaurant. For two decades this senseless terrorism claimed the lives of more than seventy Turkish diplomats (four in the U.S.) and their family members, and maimed and wounded several innocent by-standers in the carnage staged by the Armenians all over the world. The Armenian terrorists, mostly dropouts from Middle Eastern terrorism, recognize no boundary to their savage operations. They even carried the terror to the college campuses, ravishing the sanctified atmosphere of the higher-learning institutions. The American historians who refused to share the distorted Armenian version of history were targeted for harassment and threat. The Turkish History professor Stanford Shaw of U.C.L.A. was one of them, and on October 3, 1977, the Armenian bullies threw a bomb, and blew up the front portion of his house. He and his family had to leave the campus under a death threat."

The first sentence breaks sense and grammar rules to fit in a denial of the Armenian genocide. The incidents related are a mixture of vagueness and puzzling specificity: "old man named Yanikian" at an unamed restaurant with unnamed diplomats in an incident which may have occured on 27 January 1973. The overuse of adjectives makes for melodramatic writing, undermining the believability of the narrative. Most of the incidents mentioned in the quote are supposed to have occurred in the U.S., so references would be available in English. If any incident can be substantiated with a neutral refence, then it could go back in the main article without adjectives and without flatly denying the Armenian genocide. DJ Silverfish 15:35, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Is below enough info for you?

Article from The Independent dated Apr 2, 1998 p:14
Editor's e-mail: editorial at independent dot com

Murder Will Out?

District Attorney Regrets Not Allowing Genocide Testimony at Murder
Trial

By David D. Minner, judge of the Madera County Municipal Court, who
was the District Attorney of Santa Barbara County in the early 1970s.

Twenty-five years ago Gourgen Mkrtich Yanikian, a 78 year old Armenian
immigrant and long time Santa Barbara resident, started what he called
a "New kind of war" with assassination of two Turkish diplomats.

Yanikian's war began January 27, 1973, in a cottage at the Biltmore
Hotel, where he had lured a consul general and vice-consul of the
Republic of Turkey. The diplomats expected to receive gifts of art
treasures for their government, but instead Yanikian pulled a Luger
pistol from a hollowed-out book and emptied it at them. He called the
reception desk, said he killed "two evils", then sat calmly on the
patio awaiting arrest.
(continues)...

It seems he's a hero for your fellow armenians. See this link

If it's not related to ASALA directly, maybe we should create a new article "Armenian Terrorism"?

--Gokhan 12:10, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

---

Information can be cleaned from POV. I think he is trying to refer to the first incident regading the ASALA activities. -- Cat ^chi? 00:46, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Salon.com:Turko-Armenian war brews in the Ivory TowerAfter a century of debate about the Armenian massacres, can the Turkish government endow chairs at American universities without branding Turkish studies as wholly corrupt? By Christopher Shea.

This article has been seriously criticized. First of, Shaw claim he stopped writing books because he was threatned, this is not so, Shaws stopped writing books when he was exposed having plagiated what he claimed being his 20 years research, from a Turkish "specialist" Uzun Jarsoglu(Shaw still openly deny the Armenian genocide, and comment, if what he claims was to be true, he would just not speak). Shaw and his Turkish wife Ezel Kural were the inniciators of the 70s Turkish government attempt to rewrite history. The article as well uses a work known as revisionist and consider it "balanced" from someone stationed at Istanbul trying to bring Armenians and Turks together by sharing responsabilities when the work itself isen't even seriously considered in the academic circle. Fadix 00:42, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Here is a link to an article on the controversies in Turkish studies in American universities. It contains a reference to Dr. Shaw, the only complete name found in the propaganda piece above. DJ Silverfish 08:20, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Unreferenced tag

Before even thinking of labelling as a terrorist group (which is surely was), sources should be provided. Please refer to other controversial articles such as Hamas to see how this is done. Tazmaniacs 16:50, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Info on Armenian Support to ASALA

There are no details in the article to what extend (if any) was the popularity among or support by Armenia & Armenian Diaspora. Maybe general feelings or Armenian news articles of the period. How can we incorporate this aspect within the article? --Gokhan 11:20, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

It seems this is another issue that is being covered up... --Gokhan 03:44, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Terrorism, not related to ASALA

Armenian terrorism redirects here. But what about terror acts, committed by ethnic Armenian people, who were not members of ASALA? For example, explosion in Moscow metro in 1977? Grandmaster 12:44, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Please be bold in such cases. I removed both articles redirect here & listed them for deletion, maybe you would care commenting on it (see Armenian terrorism and Armenian Terrorism). Tazmaniacs 17:36, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

I think they should not be deleted, but rather made into a separate article or a list of such organizations. Ethnic and religious terrorism is not something uncommon, and in this particular case there were more than one organization involved, they all shared similar ideology and pursued similar goals. I think it should be described in a broader context in a separate article. The name could be altered, if needed. Grandmaster 18:47, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

You would like that, wouldn't you. :-) Hakob 18:46, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

As an Azari I disagree and do not consider Armenian freedom fighters as terrorists. There are some borderline cases, user:Grandmaster don't be too hasty in labeling others as terorrists. I would also like to take the time to tell our friends at Wikiproject Armenia that many Azaris and certain members of Wikiproject Azari/Azeri see you as our brothers with the same Albanian and Iranian ancestors. We are not Turkic people, we only speak a Turkic language and are really Iranians who have shared a commo history for thousands of years before any Turks or Mongols came to our region. Many of us also want to say it was not us that massacred inoccent Armenians in the Armenian Holocaust as the Turks did. I propose that we make a joint userbox saying peace in Caucasia and share it with our projects and the Georgian, Russian, and Iranian. I apologize to all of you for the facist aggression of a fiction pan-Turkist movement that has victimized Aremnians and the Iranian peoples (which includes the Azaris). 72.57.230.179

Well if you love them that much why just give them Nagorno-Karabakh? Or maybe you will want to give Baku as present as well? While at it you can tell 1 million Azeri refugees to be happy because Armenians are their cousins actually. That was fun. --Gokhan 03:48, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

General rule here: please do not feed the troll. Grandmaster 09:41, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

No evidence that Hagopian was killed by a Turkish agent

Hagopian was killed in Athens by two unidentified men wearing ski masks who peppered him with four shotgun rounds and soon made their getaway by van. The Turks would never have been able to track him down whereas other suspects such as the Dashnaks and even more likely, rival members in ASALA who had been tracking him for months on end, were the ones who killed him. MarshallBagramyan 13:09, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the French secret services are said to have killed Hagopian, according to German historian Tessa Hofmann. -- Clevelander 15:44, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

New Armenian Resistance Organization

New Armenian Resistance Organization is a terrorist cell based out of France. In 1972 they bombed the Turkish Tourism and Information Office in Paris.[1] While their first terror acts were before the creation of ASALA they and other groups like the Azad Hay in Canada, Gaitzer would eventually ally with and become part of ASALA. The group is now viewed as one of many militant wings of ASALA.

This group is part of the ASALA why isn't it allowed to be part of the ASALA article?--Esemono 15:21, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Offensive comment from article should be removed

As an Armenian, I was offended by this statement:

The support and sympathy to both grpoups among the Armenian community is still widespread.

I deeply resent this comment as it makes it look like all Armenians support the ASALA or any other Armenian terrorist organization, which is not true. If you want to contribute, then I suggest that you (whoever added this line) please be respectful of all people on Wikipedia, whether they be Turkish or Armenian, Muslim or Christian. We are all human and you should know that not all Armenians support violence as a way of achieving their goals.

It also should be noted that no support can exist for these groups (ASALA, JCAG, or any other Armenian terrorist organization) if they themselves no longer exist. -- Clevelander 18:33, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Orly Airport

What about the bombing of the Orly Airport, the assault that give the group one of its names? Here is a reference: [2] Kültigin ^(talk) 13:56, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Seems like that should be added if accurate. --Awiseman 20:36, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Why was this deleted?

Kertenkelebek reverted it saying "rv vandal" in his edit summary, but it doesn't seem like vandalism to me? It appears to be sourced and has useful information. It could be cleaned up a little, especially the last paragraph, but seems like it all should be included. --Awiseman 20:33, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Here's the removed text:

The ASALA's most destructive attack was on August 7, 1982 in Ankara at the Esenboga International Airport, when its members targeted civilians for the first time. Two militants opened fire in a crowded passenger waiting room. One of shooters took more than 20 hostages while the second was apprehended by police. Altogether, nine people died and 82 were injured. The surviving militant Levon Ekmekjian condemned the ASALA in the aftermath of the attack and appealed to other members to leave and stop the violence. The Esenboga attack also precipitated a split in the group over tactics, between the Nationalists (ASALA-Militant) and the 'Popular Movement' (ASALA-Mouvement Révolutionnaire). Still, on July 15, 1983, the ASALA carried out another devestating attack at the Orly Airport near Paris. The attack gave the group a new nickname, the Orly Group. Afterwards, French forces promptly arrested those involved.

By 1986, the ASALA virtually ceased all attacks. Hagop Hagopian, one of the group's founders, was assassinated on a sidewalk in an affluent neighborhood in Athens, Greece on April 28, 1988. It is disputed whether Hagopian was assinated by the French secret services or Hovsep A., Vartan G., Garabed K., and Albert "Sultan-Minas", former ASALA members and close friends of Hagopian. His body was riddled by several shotgun rounds while he walking out with two women at 4:30 in the morning. Tarakchian died of cancer in 1980 and the group fell into inactivity. According to Turkish sources, the ASALA was repressed by a series of attacks by the Turkish National Intelligence Organization (MIT), some carried out by Abdullah Çatlı, leader of the ultra-nationalist Grey Wolves, which worked in cooperation with the MIT and with Gladio "stay-behind" NATO secret paramilitary organizations. Throughout its history, the ASALA claimed the lives of 31 Turkish diplomats and embassy staff, including wives and children.

Although they publicly distanced themselves from the ASALA, Turkey's Armenia community also came under attack by Turkish nationalists in reaction to the attacks. This became apparent after the assination of Ahmet Benler, the son of Ambassador Ozdemir Benler on October 12, 1979 by Armenian militants in the Hague. The reaction to the attack led to the bombing of the church of the Armenian Apostolic Patriarchate in Istanbul on October 19 in retaliation.

I wrote up a sourced and neutral version of the article (this was part of it), but for some reason, this wasn't accepted by some of our fellow editors and was reverted. See here for my original version. If you could revert back to this version than this would be much appreciated. -- Clevelander 21:52, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

There's no dispute of Hagopian's death. The French and Turkish authorities were left completely out of the loop as Hagopian had been constantly switching IDs and travelling from Greece to Yugoslavia. The closest suspects next to ASALA members were the Dashnaks who had been trying to track him for months. Its sounds gramatically wrong when you insert the French SS and then specifically mention the names of who did it. The assassins themselves admitted to the killings and they were not only friends to Hagopian but also his most trusted lieutenants. They carried out a series of other assassinations against former comrades-in-arms including at one time trying to kill Monte Melkonian in Armenia. Unless there's proof of French complicity by a reputable source, remove the weasel language as that account was confirmed by both inside members and his wife, Janet.--MarshallBagramyan 01:43, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

You can change that when the article is unlocked. -- Clevelander 01:47, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

References

Disputes

To some armenians, this page seems to be disputed, please write your concerns here so we may discuss what's wrong with it like civilized people. Kertenkelebek^Ⓣ 17:12, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Good luck with that.--Kagan the Barbarian 17:16, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

You revert the entire article which is well sourced and neutral, and then you ask others to discuss your version instead of reverting it? Sorry, if you have problems with the old version, discuss it here. And the chronology can't be here--it's original research, among other bad things.--TigranTheGreat 23:53, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

The "new version."

Clevelander, did you see the "Turkish homeland of Eastern Anatolia" in the "new version?" And that sounded neutral to you? The "new version" removed any mention of Armenian Genocide, which was the prime motivator of the group's activities.--TigranTheGreat 01:15, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Er, what? No, this was my "new version" (I added references, etc. something that nobody seemed willing to do). Before I made this major revision, a good chunk of the page looked like it had been copied-and-pasted from various Turkish websites with an obscure reference to My Brother's Road thrown in it. In short, it was a mess.

Admittedly, however, I didn't pay much attention to this article after I revised it, so somebody must've added something new to it since then. When I reverted the article, I didn't bother to look at the content I was reverting (I meant to revert to 62.203.179.170's last version not to Tazmaniacs's). I explained my rather embarassing mistake to Khoikhoi and I apologize for the confusion. -- Clevelander 01:19, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

First of all lets make one thing clear: ASALA as can be understood from its name is an organization aiming the "Liberation of Armenia" has nothing to do with the so-called genocide issue. The sole aim of ASALA was to create the imaginary big Armenia as depicted on their logo. The Armenian terrorist organization aiming the spread of Armenian genocide lie is JCAG as again can be understood from its name. About the Turkish homeland of Anatolia being a POV: Anatolia is the Turkish homeland since 1071 A.D., you don't know it learn it, can't get used to it (still!!!) get along with it. If you think the phrase can somehow to be considered a POV, please replace it with a NPOV version rather than deleting, because I see no POV in that. And most importantly, please stop deleting the list of assasinated Turkish diplomats and killed civilians by Armenians for it's withelding information. All the edits on the page are referenced, if you state otherwise please specify which one you're talking about again rather than deleting people's contributions. Kertenkelebek^Ⓣ 07:30, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

It is actually interesting to note that the map on their logo appears to include the whole territory of Azerbaijan republic. What does it have to do with "genocide"? Grandmaster 07:47, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

As a matter of fact only the half of it (if it makes any difference) and a small portion of Georgia when you lay the logo on Google Earth and after making adjustments to fit it to geographical borders. Kertenkelebek^Ⓣ 08:08, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

It looks like the whole territory of Azerbaijan including Baku to me. Grandmaster 08:57, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the only Azerbaijani territories that the ASALA appears to be claiming are Nakhichevan and Nagorno-Karabakh. Also note that that low "cleft" that appears to be cutting into the ASALA's proposed "Greater Armenia" is actually Iran. So when you set it against any map of the South Caucasus, keep this note in mind and you'll see that this is the case. -- Clevelander 22:20, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

What we sadly witness on Wikipedia is the distilled version of the ongoing massive disinformation handled by certain groups for decades.--Kagan the Barbarian 08:04, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I would expect support rather than being a witness from the people with common sense on the other hand. Kertenkelebek^Ⓣ 08:08, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Merhaba Kelebek. You are violating copyright by pasting from a website. I agree with you that the crimes of ASALA and their victims should be mentioned here but you'll have to do better than copy pasting, try writing your own paragraphs.--Kagan the Barbarian 08:11, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

It's not from a website, it's from the book, however you have a point. I'll revise the Chronology and put ti the other way, however one can't change or hide the information based on this cover (no offense to you). Kertenkelebek^Ⓣ 08:15, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, you posted nothing but the regular Turkish falsifications. Saying "ASALA was not about the Genocide" is a new one, but belongs with the rest of them. Sorry, but the genocide was a central motivator of the ASALA activities, mentioned even in neutral websites such as tkb.org. The demand for Western Armenia is in fact intricately connected with the Genocide--since Turks used the Genocide to stop the lawful process of Western Armenia's independence, they shall return it back to Armenians (and that's what ASALA said as well).

By the way, aside from the fact that the homeland of Turks is Central Asia, just strictly speaking about the Ottoman Empire--the homeland of any empire is the area where the empire starts. So, the Western Anatolia and the Balkans are better qualified as the Ottoman homeland than Armenia. Armenia was added later, and was always the periphery of the empire, rather than the "center"--TigranTheGreat 08:37, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Edit: I see some can't let go of their old communist habits. You dare delete my messages in a talk page. 1- How is it not relevant when it is only a reply to your own bloody message. 2- Who are you to decide what's relevant? 3- Who are you decide what's relevant, decide the verdict and execute it? Shameless as always, as would be expected.--Kagan the Barbarian 13:06, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, but talk page is not your own forum. You may discuss the causes of the Armenian Genocide on its page, here you can't start an irrelevant quarrel.--TigranTheGreat 13:11, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

It is a reply to your message, it does not start a new discussion. You are violating my right for an answer.--Kagan the Barbarian 13:16, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

You have no right for an answer. You have a right to stick to the discussion, which you didn't exercise.--TigranTheGreat 23:51, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

OK, the copyright problem should be settled now, some additional information on the roots of ASALA is added. If you think something is wrong with the article please feel free to fix it or bring it into discussion rather than deleting. Thanks. Kertenkelebek^Ⓣ 10:45, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

The ASALA's goal was to inflict revenge on Turkish diplomats due to Turkey's non-recognition of the Armenian Genocide. This is stated in both the LoC's 1988 edition of "Turkey: A Country Study" as well as on the pro-Armenian website in the links section of this article.

I reverted the latest batch of edits that you added as they are not credible. Furthermore, the Santa Barbara attack by Gourgen Yanikian has nothing to do with the ASALA, it was a seperate attack. The ASALA didn't even operate in the United States as all, if not most of their attacks were carried out in Europe and the Middle East. Also, everything that you have added is uncited, uncredible, and not authoritative. Also, the statement of "the Turkish majority populated eastern Anatolia" is false. Even today, Turks did not constitute a solid majority in eastern Anatolia. Instead it is home to a majority Kurdish population (unless you wish to call them "Mountain Turks"). This, my friend, is a fact. -- Clevelander 12:37, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I think there has been an error leading to deletion of my comment from the talk page, I'll just ignore it. Anyway, it was never mentioned that Yanikian was involved in ASALA, but the political situation leading to birth of ASALA can not be understood without examining and understanding its past. Sorry I forgot to cite my resources, I will. As for the Turkish majority populated eastern Anatolia" I was making comparison with the Armenian population more spesifically in the North-eastern Anatolia. But your comment "Turks did not constitute a solid majority in eastern Anatolia" is like saying "Americans do not constitute a solid majority in he US". A Turk is any Turkish citizen or resident in Turkey that considers him/her self to be a Turk regardless of his/her ethnic origin. However this kind of a description may be hard to understand for the racist ideology that divides everyone according to their ethnic or religious origins. I'm not the one to make that kind of a distinction. And this, my friend, is what you don't understand. Kertenkelebek^Ⓣ 13:11, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

That's ridiculous. In the United States, everybody is mixed. There are people living in our country from all walks of life and from practically every single country in the world. American society is anything but homogeneous. In Turkey, the situation is different as the majority of the population today are ethnic [Anatolian] Turks. This is true for the most part, until ones goes to eastern provinces like Van, Diyarbakır, Muş, Hakkari, Siirt, Ağrı, Batman, Şırnak, and Şanlıurfa where Kurds form the majority. There are also areas where groups such as Zazas, Georgians, Laz, and Hamshenis (who are Armenians themselves) constitute a majority. -- Clevelander 13:22, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Your comments weren't deleted, at least not by me. I suppose Kagan the Genghiz in his constant fit of anger did it. His' were deleted since they had nothing to do with the topic of the page. As to your comments, Turkey is not America, Turks are an ethnicity, and stating that has nothing to do with racism--in fact suppressing other ethnicities (as the Turkish Constitution does) is. So, it would be misleading to the reader. And saying "majority Turkish population" is really irrelevant for the article. And we are not going to edit the name of the Armenian Genocide by "highly disputed" or whatever. It is the accepted name for the events in academia, and it should be used. As for the political situation that lead to ASALA--if we were to discuss it, we would have to go to the Armenian Genocide, not Yanikyan.--TigranTheGreat 13:20, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Please don't add adjectives in front of my actions, such as "in his constant fit of anger", this is not a Stephen King novel. At least have the decency to leave people's messages alone, if there's a problem report it (as you always do). Apologies to Clevlander, deletion of your message was my mistake.--Kagan the Barbarian 13:33, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Wrong citation

I have the book and it does not approve what is written here: "Although they publicly distanced themselves from the ASALA [7], Turkey's Armenia community also came under attack by Turkish nationalists in reaction to the attacks. This became apparent after the assassination of Ahmet Benler, the son of Ambassador Ozdemir Benler on October 12, 1979 by Armenian militants in the Hague. The reaction to the attack led to the bombing of the church of the Armenian Apostolic Patriarchate in Istanbul on October 19 in retaliation." You can find this book too in the internet and read it: http://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/webbin/book/lookupname?key=Pitman%2C%20Paul%20M. und http://lcweb2.loc.gov/frd/cs/trtoc.html so I will delete this wrong citation made in the Article. --134.155.99.42 10:42, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

# of Diplomats killed

31, 32, 41?Burgaz 14:48, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

ASALA flag

Thats the correct one, Jalaleddin I think you may have confused with the white one featuring a gun with the Armenian homeland previously but that is the official logo not the flag. Artaxiad 19:57, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Also if you look at that map it shows Cilicia in ancient times Armenians had kingdoms there its not the Kurdish one its not that lengthy. From the left is Cilicia, as seen here, Image:Armenianmediterian.gif Artaxiad 20:16, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Artaxiad was logo removed because its irrelevant? or some other reason? Vartanm 06:45, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

It was never there actually, but its uploaded to Wikimedia, [3] Artaxiad 06:55, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Artin Penik etc.

This article should cover the following stuff:

• 1) Artin Penik
• 2) Which states listed ASALA as a terrorist organization (According to reference, US did, as far as I know, France did too, so also Turkey and Azerbaijan)

If ASALA is removed from their list, when was it removed?

• 3) Other attacks, currently the article states only three attacks, ASALA attacked mostly embassies and consulates, those attacks (at least the ones claimed by ASALA) should be mentioned

if we can find: It is stated that ASALA had 8 point manifesto, what were those eight points?

I am going to revert back, and remove 'Armenian SSR' part in the opening statement, remove PKK wikilink at the end. Let me also remove 'list of terrorist organisations' link.

ps. The 'neutral' reference link is dead, Armenian one takes too long (the connection times out whenever I try)

pps. I checked the pages on Pitman's book, where ASALA is mentioned (there are two such pages), we have the following sentence (I think the main page refers to this sentence):

Unidentified Turkish government officials frequently have leaked reports to the news media accusing Armenia, Lebanon, and Syria of allowing Armenian terrorists to receive training and support within their borders.

It does not say anything about these reports being not true Please search for ASALA on [4] --deniz 21:44, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Your current version is nonsense and is strongly bias and POV, whats your reason for removing the part about the Armenian Genocide? thats one of the main reasons this group was active and committing attacks, secondly removing this is really wrong, In particular, the ceded territory would to The territory to be ceded would be th since the paragraphs are enough. Artaxiad 23:58, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I did not remove any part about Armenian Genocide (if you are talking about 1.5 million, it wasn't me who removed it). I don't see why it's strongly biased and POV, can you please comment on including three things I mentioned above (also the other ones if you want to)? Also, about the 'ceded territory' sentence, I don't understand what the problem is. If you want to, we can add 'in particular' there, if that is the problem. I don't think removing 'in particular' made the article biased.

--deniz 04:04, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Terrorist Category

Fedayee, I don't see why are you reverting the page. ASALA is a terrorist organization, according to definition of US State Department and even according to Armenians themselves [5] (read the first line, the rest I can translate if it's necessary). I will repost this to Khoikhoi's page as well, and let him respond. Atabek 01:03, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm just following the rules on terrorism in wikipedia; [6]. Anyway we all know this category will create controversy and I don't think we want to escalate matters while we're still in the Arbitration. No one denies that the US state department once considered ASALA a terrorist organization. It's just not wiki-rules. Check the Al Qaeda page too. - Fedayee 01:08, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

If you peruse this mission Atabek you are pushing major POV. Artaxiad 01:17, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

From Wikipedia:Words to avoid#Terrorist, terrorism:

Encyclopedic:

• X is on the U.S. Department of State's "Designated Foreign Terrorist Organizations" list.
• X, identified by the Y government as responsible for the Z suicide bombings [or "who claimed responsibility for the Z suicide bombings"], is classified as a terrorist group by A, B and C [countries or bodies].
• Countries A, B and C regard X as a terrorist group [because...]

Not encyclopedic:

• X is a terrorist group.
• Y, leader of the X terrorists, ...
• After a rapid military response, the X terrorists abandoned the hostages.

¿Comprendes señor? Khoikhoi 01:23, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Muchas gracias amigo! - Fedayee 01:34, 16 March 2007 (UTC

Khoikhoi, my question was regarding category not regarding wording. According to your logic, I don't see why Abdullah Çatlı should belong to terrorist category either. I will fix the problem immediately. However, this issue will be brought to attention of ArbCom as well, as one of the proposals. I don't see why ASALA is different from Al Qaeda with one being listed as terrorist category and others not. Fedayeen, your argument has no relevance to ArbCom Case. State Department considered ASALA as terrorist for the entire duration of its existence, not just for some of its time. Also, if "terrorist" category is not appropriate, I don't see why there is a category called terrorist at all. Artaxiad, yours as usual, simply ignored. Thanks. Atabek 01:50, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Your not scaring anyone with your ArbCom, your always in a rush, this shall be reported to ArbCom also for pushing POV, violating Wiki rules by adding Terrorism to articles as seen on Monte melkonian and ASALA and other places, and thanks. Artaxiad 01:55, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Go ahead report it. ASALA was considered as terrorist organization by the State Department, its leaders, including Monte Melkonian, were arrested and convicted on charges of terrorism in France and other European Countries for killing civilians in attacks. It's preposterous to exclude it from Terrorist category now, while some Palestinian, Chechen, etc. organization are in that category. I would love to hear why is that from ArbCom. Atabek 02:01, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

When was its leader convicted as a terrorist??? That whole sentence is just bunch of Azeri propaganda. Monte Melkonian was convicted for forgery and weapons charges. It was only France not the other European countries. Vartanm 02:38, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

You still don't understand do you? did you miss the examples users gave above? read the rules again, NPOV, terrorism is something to avoid, we all know that, terrorism is a factor that should be included but is not, major terrorist groups on Wikipedia don't have that why? because its against the rules. Artaxiad 02:05, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I did make my point clear. If there is a category called terrorism in Wikipedia, then ASALA definitely fits in it. If using using "terrorism" is against rules, then the category should not be there in first place. I am still waiting to get an explanation of that from Khoikhoi, who did not answer my question. Thanks. Atabek 09:13, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

"Armenian terrorism" is POV, theres other categories like I said, the person who made it obviously was part of the party, Armenian or Turkish. Artaxiad 19:13, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

France is member of EU and EC, and as such, the laws, as well as responsibilities, are shared with all members of the European community. If one was convicted of terrorism in France, he is considered terrorist in the entire EC/EU. Meanwhile, there are other ASALA members who were convicted or tried on terrorism charges, such as Varujan Karapetian and Murad Topalian [7]. According to the United States Federal Bureau of Investigation, between 1980-86, Armenian terrorism accounted for the second highest number of terrorist incidents in the United States.[FBI Analysis of Terrorist Incidents in the United States in 1986, p.53. U.S. Department of Justice, Federal Bureau of Investigation, Criminal Investigative Division, Terrorism Section.] According to the FBI, two Armenian groups were directly responsible for this terrorism: the left-wing “Armenian Secret Army for the Liberation of Armenia” (ASALA) and the right-wing “Justice Commandos of the Armenian Genocide” (JCAG). Since 1973, Armenian terrorists have committed 239 acts of terrorism that have killed at least 70 and wounded 524 innocent people, mostly non-Turks. Armenian terrorists have taken 105 hostages, "executing" 12, one of them an American woman. The Armenian terrorist bombing campaign that accounted for at least 160 of the 239 attacks caused the vast majority of the deaths and injuries. In addition, the Armenian terrorist bombing campaign caused 160 incidents of property destruction, totaling several hundred million dollars in property damage in the United States, Europe, Middle East and Australia. Of the 239 terrorist attacks, 71 were conducted by Armenians from North America, and 30 occurred on American soil. Twenty-two terrorists from the Armenian American communities of North America were captured, tried, convicted, and incarcerated. The Federal authorities, led by then-Federal Agent and current ATF Marshall, Pete Elliot, used DNA evidence to link Topalian to weapons and explosives that were in turn linked to four major attacks by the nationalist, JCAG terror organization: (1) October 12, 1980, New York, Car bombing of the Turkish Center, Jewish American B’Nai Brith Center, and African American Center at the U.N Plaza; (2) June 3, 1981, Los Angeles, Bombing of the Orange County Convention Center in Anaheim, site of an Evangelical Convention and Turkish folkdance and music show; (3) November 20, 1981, Los Angeles, Bombing of the Turkish Consulate building in Beverly Hills; and, (4) October 22, 1982, Los Angeles, Attempted bombing of the offices of Philadelphia Honorary Turkish Consul General by four JCAG members recruited from the Armenian Youth Federation (AYF) (a fifth JCAG co-conspirator is arrested at Logan International Airport in Boston the same day). On June 12, 2005, NBC Dateline’s segment, “Time Bomb”, reported that Topalian acquired and stored weapons and explosives in a public storage facility near a childcare center, public school, gas station, and major highway near Cleveland. The explosives, dating back to the late 1970s, were deteriorating and highly volatile. Agent Elliot expressed that had the arsenal ignited and exploded, it would have killed at least 750 people, mostly children. --AdilBaguirov 18:21, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Adil please provide a source for ASALA membership and conviction for Varujan Karapetian and Murad Topalian. Your whole rant was about JCAG which has nothing to do with ASALA. Vartanm 21:01, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

This

This. No comment.--Doktor Gonzo 10:19, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Artin PENIK Video

> On August 10, 1982, Artin Penik a Turkish citizen of Armenian descent, set himself on fire in protest of this attack.

Last words of Artin PENIK in a hospital bed after he set himself on fire.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uh2f2qsc5Yg&feature=PlayList&p=CD8C264E88F34D48&index=0 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.136.249.174 (talk) 22:45, 29 April 2007 (UTC).

ASALA not being on the terrorist lists

Ok, I don't know what you people are trying to do with your last edits, but this is what I'd call misleading. Of course ASALA is not in the present list of terrorist organizations since it's defunct now. Or is it claimed that it is still active today? I've seen discussions before about when it became defunct, but this is the first time I'm facing such claim. There were even statements from the members about it has been abolished after the collapse of the USSR. I'll revert it if it's not properly sourced in couple of hours. Kerem Özcan 09:01, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

There were no sourcing, although the person with claims was active in editing. So I reverted it. Regards, Kerem Özcan 18:00, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

dear! In 1995 in an offic. publication ASALA write: "We'll continue our Struggle" (VASN, p.4)! If you havent any sources to prove youre right pls dont falsify my own source in Armenian (!, I dont think youre good in Armenian)...

I think this last wording should be ok. Kerem Özcan 12:36, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

25 Year anniversary statement

Noyan Tapan or AFP don't have stories about the statement that ASALA intends to fight Turkey. [8] Vartanm 04:43, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

New Category

Added a new Turkophobia category to the page. Atabek 11:22, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Um... ASALA was not about "Turkophobia"... Their intent was the LIBERATION OF ARMENIA, as their name says.Serouj 04:31, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, and it committed attacks against Turks, killed Turkish diplomats and blew up Turkish Airlines counter at the airport out of love of Turks. Turkophobia is not a bad word, it means "fear" or "hatred" against Turks, which is what the whole "Liberation of Armenia" thing is about. Why not just admit this fact, which is not denied by any Armenian, and move on with editing of the article. Atabek 11:11, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

This organization perfectly fits into that category. They killed Turks just for being Turks. I don't think anyone can deny this. Grandmaster 11:28, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Aivazovsky, you have renamed the category Turkophobia to anti-Turkism and got ridden of the category on this and two other pages. Nice trick, but please, I doubt anyone would dispute that ASALA was anti-Turkish organization. Correcting your mistake. Atabek 17:28, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Actually, after renaming it, I meant to readd it but I never got a chance. I don't dispute the anti-Turkism of the ASALA. -- Aivazovsky 19:24, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Symphaty

Thousands of Armenians worldwide still have symphaty for this terror organisation, a point thats important to note in this article.

Any written published proof that "Thousands of Armenians worldwide have symphaty for this terror organization" ? VartanM 18:29, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

IP edit

The IP edits are justified, because the source says nothing about Simon Simonian and the Arminian Diaspora, see: Turkey: A Country Study. Washington D.C.: The Federal Research Division of the Library of Congress p.368 I hope this clears the confusion. VartanM 00:29, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Denizz, the first source doesn't say anything about Armenian Diaspora and ASALA has been defunct since 1986 how could it operating in 1998? --VartanM 00:04, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

According to the source, ASALA continues its criminal activities in Latin America and US. Why did you remove sourced info? Deniz^T_C 00:23, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Can you quote the source I can't access it. The reason I removed it, because ASALA is a defunct organization and can't possibly operate 12 years later in a continent far away from where it used to operate. All of the reliable sources say that ASALA has been defunct since 1985-86. I highly doubt that the source is accurate. This is what Antero Leitzinger has said about Bodansky:

although his biographer Yossef Bodansky, blessed with rather vivid imagination, credits him also with a couple of skirmishes in 1986 and 1989. (Bodansky, p. 19 and 25). --VartanM 01:25, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, It was on Amazon Reader. Check the book's website : [http://www.amazon.com/Bin-Laden-Man-Declared-America/dp/0761535810/ref=si3_rdr_bb_product/002-7039219-2407201]. I don't remember what I searched for, but 'Sakarian' works. It is page 365. I should have written the ref in a more neat way. Deniz^T_C 03:49, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

It's not a problem, I searched on google books but there is no preview available. While googling the name Simon Sakarian and ASALA I only get one hit, and the name is a different Sakarian. What I'm trying to say is that if this Sakarian guy did carry out attacks under the name of ASALA, there would be more then one source written about it. The source itself is a best selling book about Osama bin Laden, an unofficial biography, and the author was criticized by a historian for having a vivid imagination for making stuff up. I would ask for more sources, but I know that there are none, because I searched for it. VartanM 05:57, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

OK Deniz^T_C 17:57, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Flag of ASALA

There is a mistake! The flag represented here is not that of ASALA but its the flag of the "revolutionary cooperation of Middle East organisations" (its why the map included there is the map of "free Middle East"). This flag was used also by some Lebanese and Palestinian organisations. Its better to use in this article the gerb of ASALA with the map of Wilsonian Armenia and Kalashnikov with Armenian word Hayasdan.-User:Andranikpasha, 26 Aug. 2007 —The preceding signed but undated comment was added at 18:40, August 26, 2007 (UTC).

Andranik, I don't know about Silva Kaputikyan's poem, but the movie Ararat never mentions ASALA. --VartanM 15:10, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

In the reffered article in "Spurk" magazine they wrote that in the moment when Raffi speaks about his father, in the wall behind him anyone can recognize a poster of ASALA with the Armenian letters on it.

The poem of Kaputikyan first time was published in "Literatura Armenii" journal in 1986 as a part of her memoirs. The history of writing you can find in her last "Karavannern heranum en" book. PS-I can post the full English translation.Andranikpasha 11:22, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 05:45, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Moving this down

Moving this down, it was not so relevant to the above discussion, anyway: Deniz^T_C 19:47, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Denizz, I corrected some other addings b/c: 1. 1975 is Wikificated version of 1975, its better to wikify all years,

2. "a Turkish citizen of Armenian descent" is the right form b/c in Turkey officially all the citizens are Turks with different descent. A newspaper can be Armenian-Turkish, the community can be, not the persons!

3. "- please either don't write Armenian perspective, Turkish perspective, or just delete them, don't impose anything on the reader, don't take any stances." We save it to clear up for the reader why these links represent different positions.

4. the most important internal links must be added to the "See also" section, its a commonly used practics in Wiki (there're a lot of examples). For example- Deep Purple-Ian Gillan (despite many usings in the text) Andranikpasha 08:37, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Andranikpasha, let me go backwards :) Please don't use WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS like arguments. Wikipedia: See also clearly states what See also is for, and what is not for. It is not there for repeating wikilinks.

3), I think we should just use whatever we might use from those sources, and make them sources, instead of presenting them as external links, especially in this way, which still seems to me as imposing an idea on the reader

2) I am not feeling strongly about this. I checked Hrant Dink, a good article, which might soon be a featured article. It is possibly the best article and most important article about an Armenian in Turkey. There Turkish-Armenian is used and it is wikilinked to Armenians in Turkey. Also, as Turkish means in fact Turkish citizen, we might have a redundancy issue there.

1) Wikifying at most one occurrence should be fine. No need to give too many chances to the reader to 'run away' from the article. If we had month and day there, we should have probably wikilinked them, since wikipedia users have different settings about the way dates are displayed. Deniz^T_C 14:21, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

I made the partial rv, and some cleanup. Deniz^T_C 22:34, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Denizz, the "partial rv" is not an enough explanation. Pls be more detailed and discuss at first your rv-s.

I made some editions, because:

• the assasination of Turkish diplomats is marked at background section, no need to repeat the same thing at the description!
• the same OR comparison with unrelated JCAG is repeated here... Surely we dont need descriptions of any other organization here (especially we have separate article for JCAG, which hadnt any relations with ASALA, but you going to add this names, descriptions to different articles and compare them based on 2 unreliable personal pages "research").
• "theoretical model based on Stalinism"- despite a source is added, it seems to be a POV, as Stalinism hadnt any model for any organizations, it was a state model of oppresions. A guerilla and any other leftist organization can use theories of Maoism, Marxism-Leninism, Trotskyism, but not Stalinism. I think only this source claimed to find any stalinist roots of this organization. There isnt any other source asking the same thing.
• despite of many discussions and sources marking ASALA wasnt anti-Turkish, but only anti-governmental, anyways you considered to add your POV as a category. Id like to mark that me and also the sources marked below are not agree with you.Andranikpasha 21:45, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

let me go forwards this time :)

• the lead summarizes the article, important things should be presented in the lead, and what a militant org targets is one of the most important things.
• I kinda agree with this one, now. Comparison by itself is not necessary here.
• I don't have the book, you added the dubious tag, go check it. As you already know, NPOV does not mean no points of view, it means neutral point of view, representing all views from all reliable sources duly.
• I don't remember any other editor here other than you rejecting them being anti-Turkish. I don't want to start this discussion all over again. Which sources are you talking about?

Deniz^T_C 15:03, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

1.even in that case we need to readd the part on targets to the lead, not to repeat it twice in the article, just cuz it is important.

3.in this case its rather a mistake by the author, than a minority POV. Anyways we need a full quotation from it (Im not the one who putted it to the article) to see if such a view exists. Anyways I think you also are agree that this POV is not good for the lead, we need to move or to delete it.

4.So what? we hadnt practics of votes at Wiki, we need just sources proving something not majority of editors... the sources are presented [[9]] at the same page. Andranikpasha 15:31, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Please provide source that they were anti-Turkish VartanM 17:14, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

VartanM, here are the sources:

• Graham E. Fuller, Ian O. Lesser. Turkey's New Geopolitics: From the Balkans to Western China, Westview Press, 1993, p. 55: "...the Armenian Marxist terrorist organization ASALA, radical Kurdish groups, and Turkish radicals. All had operational and training bases in the Syrian-controlled Bekaa Valley in Lebanon from which they had conducted anti-Turkish operations."
• Robert W. Orttung, A. S. Makarychev. National Counter-Terrorism Strategies, IOS Press, 2006, p. 147: "...Others say, they fight to take revenge for past events. Examples include the Armenian organizations ASALA, JCAG, ARA, which direct their activities against Turkey.

So not only ASALA was anti-Turkish, and I don't see why you spend time even questioning this fact, when it was clear from their attacks and well recorded in their proclaimed principles, but it was most importantly terrorist organization. So both category for Terrorism and Anti-Turkism are absolutely relevant on this page. ASALA carried the same role in 1980s and al-Qaeda does in 2000s. Atabek 21:12, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

I found two non-turkish sources (and a bunch of Turkish ones) calling ASALA anti-turkish, yet I don't want to take an active part in the discussion, so I'll throw the links in case anybody wants to use them; they are here and here (Actually there are a couple different web-sites for this second article, I chose the one that is most clear to read. I realized it later on that it's from armeniandiaspora.com)Kerem Özcan 06:55, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Atabek, pls no OR! "Anti-Turkish operations" (f.e. killing of a diplomat) never means "operation of anti-Turkism". Even the official Turkey (Ministry of culture and tourism) recognizes this fact! "ASALA did not make any distinction between the Turkish or citizens of other nations ... No discrimination was made in targets." [10] So what are you going to prove?? Andranikpasha 12:18, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Andranikpasha, I believe, you have been already warned about hogwash - [11]. Please, stick to the topics and discuss references brought instead of stonewalling them with words. I have over dozen references which clearly name ASALA as a terrorist organization, which is what it was. I will start bringing them one-by-one, and you try to discuss them in detail please:

• Beau Grosscup. The New Explosion of Terrorism, New Horizon Press, 1991, ISBN 0882820745, p. 295-296: "In 1975 the Armenian Secret Army for Liberation of Armenia (ASALA) and the Justice Commandos of the Armenian Genocide began their terrorist operations. They were joined in 1983 by the Armenian Revolutionary Army (ARA)."

The next reference will come when you respond to this one. This should take care of terrorism category. About Anti-Turkism category, suffice it to say that 99% of ASALA victims were Turks and attacks were directed against Turkish targets. Do you dispute that? Thanks. Atabek 08:08, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Congratulations Andranikpasha, you are not alone anymore. Deniz^T_C 17:37, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Girls, I'm back in town! :) I guess I have some time to waste in wikipedia, so why not start from here? ASALA qualifies for the following categories;

• Former designated terrorist organizations; did we even need sourcing for this?
• Category:Anti-Turkism;

a)"where the anti-Turkish terrorist Secret Army for the Liberation of Armenia (ASALA)"

b)"After July 1983, ASALA disappeared in the same Lebanese valley, where another anti-Turkish organization, the PKK, emerged next summer."

If nobody opposes in the following days, I'll take it as a consensus. Kerem Özcan 21:04, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Kerem if you feel the difference between anti-Turkish and anti-Turkism (the ideology), if you stop to cite unreliable sources you will see what you're suggesting is not a consensus... Im not sure if even the girls you marked are agree with you! Andranikpasha 23:13, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

I can't really say that I "feel" the difference. Simple, if an organization is Anti-Turkish, then it belongs to the Anti-Turkism category. Does anybody share the ridiculous idea by Adranikpasha? If yes, I'm going to take the case to arbitration. Regards, Kerem Özcan 23:29, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

OK then, should I take it as a consensus? Kerem Özcan (talk) 23:23, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

done. Kerem Özcan (talk) 11:07, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Please note that the Former designated terrorist organizations category is due to be split into to [12]. Defunct organizations designated as terrorist and Organizations formerly designated as terrorist. I didn't get around into changing them. So its up to you to add the old one or the new. VartanM (talk) 00:03, 22 November 2007 (UTC) I

Guerrilla warfare???

The Asala-Organisation is defintley not a Guerillia-Organization. Everybody who reads the the article about Guerrilla warfare can see that clearley. It should be changed. Normaly it should be called terrorist Organisation. But maybe a consensus for a nother word could be found. --85.105.213.115 (talk) 18:37, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Hi! the word of terrorist is a word to avoid. And militant is a POV while the source represented (Time magazine) is called ASALA a guerilla organization. According to Wiki rules Wiki articles included Guerilla warfare cant be used here as sources. Andranikpasha (talk) 19:10, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Guerilla is POV to. It wouldnt be if it is writen that the Time-magazine called them like that, other wise it is like i said POV. Greetings, --85.105.213.115 (talk) 19:15, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

see the article! a quote by Time is represented! and the word of guerilla was a consensus between users. so what's the problem? Andranikpasha (talk) 19:19, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Hallo Andranikpasha, guerrilla warfare is jused against an regular ARMY not zivilans, than its called terrorisim not Guerrilla warfare. The Time-magazine is not all knowing. Off course its a good reputable source. But in the article its not written that this is time-magazines evaluation of ASALA. It should be written in the article that asala is a Guerrilla-organization acording to times, othervise its POV.(sorry for my bad english) Greetings, --85.105.213.115 (talk) 19:58, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Please see Al-Qaeda. No need to prolong the discussion. Wikipedia rules are wikipedia rules. One's freedom fighter is other one's terrorist, hence calling such organizations, militant is the NPOV way Wikipedia suggests Regards, Kerem Özcan (talk) 20:57, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Uh! I just now noticed that you already reworded it to militant. Sorry, Kerem Özcan (talk) 21:00, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

We're working here according to Wiki rules. All our own understandings are not a base for editions. At first, according to ASALA they fought against Turkish army and government. so the guerilla is not a POV (are you sure if military is not a POV, have you sources or its your opinion?). no any source criticizing their description as "guerilla" (organization, not warfare)! and the military is even not sourced! Andranikpasha (talk) 20:24, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Lets refrain from edit warring and reach a consensus before making anymore changes. VartanM (talk) 21:19, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Actually I agree with the last edit by the anon user. The definition for militant seems more appropriate for ASALA then guerilla. Opinions? Kerem Özcan (talk) 21:26, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Upon reading both articles, I have to agree. The word militant better describes them. VartanM (talk) 21:33, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Source militant and then we can change. Cuz untill this word (guerilla/militant vs terrorist) is a great purpose for vandal attacks, anyways only a sourced consensus is acceptable. have we a source calling them militant? Andranikpasha (talk) 22:27, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

I also agree with Andraniks view. guerrilla is sourced, militant is not. VartanM (talk) 22:44, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Do you think this would qualify as verifiable? Kerem Özcan (talk) 23:16, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Ah ok it does. First I thought that it was an internet encyclopedia. But it turned out to be a renowned printed work Kerem Özcan (talk) 23:16, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

done. Kerem Özcan (talk) 11:07, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Input

Moved to this talk page from the User talk:Andranikpasha by User:Andranikpasha

I'd appriciate your input at Template_talk:Infobox_militant_organization#Crimes. Regards, Kerem Özcan (talk) 16:16, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Hi Kerem! I already found a better variant- attacks. Why to not save also the crimes for some obvious cases? Just in the case of ASALA we should neutralize as their actions werent represented as crimes but rather political actions/attacks its why ASALA prisoners were considered as political not criminal. Kind regards, Andranikpasha (talk) 17:18, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Well "Attacks" shows as "Notable attacks" on the page, and it is quite OK for specific cases such as the Orly airport. But for example "minor bombings" are too general to mention as "notable attacks". And if "killing a diplomat" or "bombing an airport" is not considered as a crime, what is?

I do think you have a point though, because as in the case of "terrorist or freedom-fighter", wikipedia is not a juristic organ to judge what is a crime and what is not, so I think the category has problems in general. Regards, Kerem Özcan (talk) 18:44, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Let's keep discussing on the relevant page. Regards, Kerem Özcan (talk) 18:48, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Kerem, why to not delete the part on "minor bombings" to close this problem? ASALA made a number of notable attacks (which is described as "attacks against the Turkish (that of Turkey, not the nationality), Swiss and French targets"). Why to keep "minor bombings" like something describing them if it is not too much notable? By other side, also for me "actions" is more neutral word than "attacks". Andranikpasha (talk) 20:45, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Problem? There's no problem. I'm with you. Why did you carry the discussion to this page? As I said before, I think there's a general error on the Template. I am not talking specifically about this article. The description "crimes" is not appropriate for any militant group. That's why I was discussing (and invited you to discuss) this on the talk page of the template.

Since the "Notable attacks" section is talking about specific events, it's appropriate for the Orly airport attack (unless we write all the attacks on the diplomats one by one). But there's also a "crimes" section (which I disagree its presence), and the other events belong there (which you rightly label as POV). If we find a medium, and agree to get it renamed, then it's something positive for all wikipedia. Regards, Kerem Özcan (talk) 21:23, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Ok! I just moved our discussion here as I think this talk is more relevant to the topic:) Ill try to represent my opinion on crime. Andranikpasha (talk) 21:44, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

I reverted anti-Turkism cat as a POV. it was discussed here many times and no consensus. Andranikpasha (talk) 15:52, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

There wasnt an EU in 1980's, and Turkey was a target so obviously condemned them. Andranikpasha (talk) 15:44, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

TKB

Anyone know whats up with TKB? Are they going to comeback online or should we look for new sources? Fixed the messed up sources from my previous edit. Adoniscik, stop being lazy. VartanM (talk) 07:21, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

We do need more sources. Several of them are broken or offline. And remember: you break it, you fix it ;) --Adoniscik^{(t, c)} 19:36, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

NPOV-section tag

I inserted the NPOV-section tag on the Counter offenses section, because it only uses Turkish sources. Lets try finding neutral sources to make it neutral. VartanM (talk) 03:31, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Which claims do you find suspect? --Adoniscik^{(t, c)} 03:53, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Those last two sections sort of imply that ASALA was dissolved largely as a result of the efforts of MIT, the reality is that ASALA ended because of infighting and lack of support. Most ASALA members were in fact assasinated by other members or the Armenian NSS.-- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 04:12, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

They don't. The last section explicitly states what you said. Moreover, it comes from a Turkish source. --Adoniscik^{(t, c)} 04:24, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Armenian NSS? You've GOT to be kidding me... When did this happen? Serouj (talk) 05:40, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Throughout the mid 90's during the reign of Vano and your idol. Those were all KGB hits.-- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 05:43, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Interesting... Any names of particular people assassinated in this regard? (Trust me, I don't particularly like the guy.) Serouj (talk) 08:09, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

ASALA And Hamshen

Does anyone have any idea about the ASALA man who was accidently discovered for being a "Hamshen" ?--Maral79 18:41, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

may he be Mesut Yilmaz? No other Person could damage Turkey —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.236.49.255 (talk) 06:50, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Armenian Terrorism is wrong term

That one is used for late 19th and early 20th century mass militarization and constant attacks on mainly Kurdish, Turkish and a lesser extend Hamsheen population of Eastern Anatolia by Armenians, which peaked in 1915 with the emerging Russian army. ASALA terror is more suitable so that the unproven involvement of Armenian government and nation can be dropped. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.236.49.255 (talk) 07:23, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Is ASALA still active?

Just came across this on a Armenian site, it seems like ASALA is active again? Baku87 (talk) 11:19, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Is poor little Baku87 scared? They're hiding under your bed, I would stop sleeping at nights if I were you. VartanM (talk) 05:33, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Are you threatening me VartanM? I find your comment very disturbing. Baku87 (talk) 12:32, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Oh no! looks like they scared the sense of humor out of you. Take a deep breath, inhale, repeat 5 times after me. ASALA is not under my bad, ASALA is not under my bad, ASALA is not.... Sweet dreams. VartanM (talk) 23:09, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Background section

I think it is too big and unsourced, and is a WP:OR. We have an article on genocide, so it is better to link to that one, rather than use so much space on info that has no direct relevance to ASALA. What do you think? Grandmaster 04:36, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

It is sourced with a RS, not an original research. And it explains their background, purposes, as it is important to understand why they organized these hundreds of attacks. there are many researches dedicated to the philosophy, roots and support of ASALA. They obviously weren't fanatics or racists, they have an ideology, they lived is concrete psychological conditions and received support from abroad (and not only from Armenians). The purpose of this article is to explain all of these things for readers. Noone goes to describe the Armenian Genocide here, but an explanation needed why many people believe they (ASALA) were guerillas or fighters for idea, not crazy and aggressive terrorists. Gazifikator (talk) 06:31, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

It is important to mention that even sources on history of Turkey wrote about "guerilla war" (which means some ideology, principles, not "crazy terrorism"):

In the guerilla war essentially unrelated to the military takeover, the Armenian Secret Army for the Liberation of Armenia (ASALA) attacked targets in Turkey and killed more than dozen Turkish diplomats in Europe and the United States betwenn 1981 and 1983. The history of Turkey, By Douglas Arthur Howard, Greenwood Publishing Group, 2001- p. 161

It is not too big, is not OR, but it does seem to me to be a bit badly written and doesn't make the various points clear. Meowy 18:53, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

I will cop a plea on the last two points you raise. I wrote that section in a space of maybe five minutes because I had an appointment to rush to. Please modify the section any way you see fit.--The Diamond Apex (talk) 14:50, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Greetings GM, perhaps you can tell us what you dispute here? It has, like you said, its own article (which is sourced). The background section is very important, as Meowy stated on the administrators’ noticeboard. Interestingly the work cited by Fedayee allocates a considerable space and presents an impressive appendix on that issue, both making up half of the book altogether . Shall I remind you that the former name of ASALA, 'The Prisoner Kurken Yanikian Group', was derived in support of Gourgen Yanikian after his failure to have the district attorney generalise his trial? (See the article about Gourgen Yanikian for more information). The district attorney didn't realise that his failure to do so would initiate a long series of murders and acknowledged his mistake. The genocide itself and its denial cannot be excluded from ASALA’s history. The film Aram (film), while fictional, sums up the context under which such attacks were conducted. It was in the beginning of the 70s, when the Turkish government started actively promoting the denial internationally through its diplomats, who unfortunately found themselves as the victims. If you will indulge me, I will find full references to support the conclusions stated in those paragraphs but please know that that section’s existence is paramount to ASALA’ history. —Preceding unsigned comment added by The Diamond Apex (talk • contribs) 01:01, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

I don't think there's any serious dispute here. In my opinion, the article must be focused on its subject topic, and not duplicate to any great extent the material from other articles. The material unrelated to ASALA should not take too much space, and any claims must be based on reliable sources. I mean by that that the relevance of the material you included to ASALA must be supported by sources. That's it. Of course, there's no rush, we just need to make sure that the article does not contain any statements that would constitute the original research. Grandmaster 04:52, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Terrorist vs Guerilla

Some anonymous person changed the description from "terrorist" to "guerilla". I reverted back. Asala, which killed diplomats and innocent civilians, should be labeled as "terrorist". Otherwise this article would be approving the acts. --Gokhan 17:16, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Hi, let me explain to you about a few Wikipedia policies/rules regarding how "terrorism" is treated. At Wikipedia, we try to avoid controversial accusations whenever we can. For example, it would not be NPOV for us to label Hamas, PKK, IRA, Hezbollah, and Al-Qaeda as terrorist organizations. It is ok, however, to say that they are recognized as terrorist by a number of countries, but it's not ok to name-call.

Believe me Gokhan, I see definitely see Al-Qaeda as terrorist, but it's just not acceptable to add my opinion to an article. Hope you understand. —Khoikhoi 02:38, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

he is right. As far as I care ASALA is a terrorist organisation, but on wikipedia we cant declare any organisation as "terrorist". On the other hand you can talk about Turkey recognising it as terrorist or if any other organisations apply. -- Cat ^chi? 08:37, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Heh, I was hoping you wouldn't see this, as I pretty much copied what you said to Hattusili. But hey, "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery". —Khoikhoi 08:41, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

OK --Gokhan 07:18, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Abdullah Çatlı smashed ASALA.Even if they were guerillas or terrorists.ASALA doesn't exist anymore and this is what I care about. With respect, Deliogul 16:59, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Well I saw that Al-Qaeda is now labeled as terrorist organization in Wikipedia. So does it mean Wiki policies are changed and finally we can also mention the true nature of PKK and ASALA right? PKK killed more than Al-Qaeda. And ASALA definitely took human life for political purposes. BUT Probably you'll object. Because probably when you kill Turks you are a hero, not a terrorist... pure bigotry. --Gokhan 16:42, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

The WP:WTA still exists. Main Wiki rules are important, not comparison with other WIKI articles. Al-Qaeda is obviously terrorist no some sources but we can ask all the reliable sources (included even Arabian and religious sources; "Bin Laden also agrees that he is engaging in terrorism") call them terrorist, its not the case for ASALA or PKK. Can you imagine if for example Time magazine call Al-Qaeda a guerilla organization?Andranikpasha 17:46, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Why? Because TIME is the most objective source? or because it's written by Western sources? Why ASALA or PKK are not "obviously" terrorist? What should you do to be "obviously" terrorist? Where's the logic, decency and objectivity in that? --Gokhan 17:58, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

At first, cuz the WIKI rules asks so. also different sources mark different descriptions for these organizations. At last, the organizations mark other descriptions (self-defence, armed stuggle, protest actions, etc.) for their activities.Andranikpasha 19:56, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Yeah whatever. I'm tired. No need to continue this farce. Thanks for your input. --Gokhan 03:21, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

how can you call asala as an guerilla organization.its a terrorist organization.--88.247.50.80 (talk) 07:08, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Founders of ASALA

Can anyone make a copy of the Armenian Reporter with the name of its so-called author? The wiki-article states that James Karnusian was allegedly one of its co-founders according to the "Armenian Reporter". It might be true to find abusive statements in Armenian newspapers but there are still some means to halt defamatory language. Apocolocynthosis (talk) 21:26, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

ASALA not being on the terrorist lists 2

I think the last sentence of the introduction (which states that ASALA is not in the terrorist lists of Usa, Britain and Russia) should be removed. If an organization is defunct, of course it won't be listed in the list of current terrorist organizations. I mean, I was the one to fix the wording for it after some guy claimed that ASALA is still "politically" active. Current wording causes such confusion (I mean, it kind of gives the impression that it's still a politically active organization but not a militant group)

What I mean is, I could us the same sources to prove that the Hashshashins are not a terrorist group.

Therefore I propose the removal of the last sentences. Regards, Kerem Özcan 18:28, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

No, I like that last sentence. It provides further detail on the current status of ASALA: that it is not considered a terrorist group by the major powers. This adds important context to the article, and removes any ambiguity as to its status.Serouj 04:23, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

The sentence completes the previous sentence that it was considered a terrorist group in 80's but not anymore. I don't see anything confusing about it. Vartanm 04:43, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Of course it's not regarded as a terrorist group now, because it's not a group to begin with. It would be a well sourced and necessary information if it was still politically active. Or for example if ASALA had laid down arms in 1986, but was active politically until 1991, and was removed from the list in the time in between, then I'd also be for of its presence. (As I said, it was even me who fixed that wording to the current one) But right now it serves for no other purpose than blurring the fact that ASALA was indeed seen as a terrorist group until it was totally defunct, and bending the facts by pleonasm. Regards, Kerem Özcan 07:06, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Its confusing to say that it was considered as a terrorist organization in the 80's and not give the current status.--Vartanm 23:26, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Ok, then why don't you try to add that information at the end of Red Army Fraction article? I think there's the same confusion there. I am removing it. Show me a single other example in wikipedia and I'll put it back. Regards; Kerem Özcan 23:58, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

There's no harm in having this extra information that clarifies. Serouj 18:46, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't really care about Red Army Fraction and I don't see any harm by having this little information in this article. Its only reasonable to show the current status of the group after saying that they were regarded as terrorist in 80's. Regards; --Vartanm 18:58, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Denizz the sources are present to show that ASALA is not currently present on the terrorist lists of US, UK and Russia. Vartanm 05:27, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Asala, is, not, in the, terrorist lists, of, any country, because, there is, no such, organisation, anymore. If it was still active, but, didn't operate as a militant group then it would be needed (and that's why it was put there - because some guy claimed that they were still politically active. you can see it from the history) Plus these sources only show that it's not on the current lists. but the sentence goes as "it's removed from the terrorist lists after laying their arms down in 1991" there's no source about that one. Current sources doesn't say anything about when.

And as I said, there's no other such example in wikipedia (and you probably know why). Go ahead, try to add it into the page of another now defunct previously regarded as a terorrist group by USA, and see the reactions. If it's accepted there, simple, we'll also have it here. Regards; Kerem Özcan 08:39, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Everybody knows that ASALA were a terrorist organisation that killed diplomats and their relatives including woman and children. So whats your point of wiew in here? are you defending it--94.54.248.229 (talk) 13:42, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

It is a silly propagand issue. Gazifikator (talk) 05:04, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Rebirth of ASALA

I came across two Armenian based articles which confirm that ASALA is in fact still active, these are [13] and [14]. This should e adopted into the article. Neftchi (talk) 14:02, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

ASALA is ALWAYS ALIVE!! Is it something new for you? But the announcement was done by Oukht Ararati, which is a union of ASALA veterans with no relations with modern ASALA as you can read in the second article. Kaqavian is a too little case for ASALA to make a statement) Gazifikator (talk) 05:38, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

POV sentences in Attacks section

I've tagged both leading sentences in the Attacks section as POV.

• 1) The ASALA was not a secret organization
• 2) has assassinated a top Turkish leader or diplomat in some country in the world, almost every year., is horribly incorrect, since even the article itself states; The last attack, on 19 December 1991, targeted the bullet-proof limousine carrying the Turkish Ambassador to Budapest. The ambassador was not injured in the attack, which was claimed by ASALA in Paris..
• 3) This has been the Armenian's method of impressing on the minds......, this is a pathetic attempt to align all Armenians with ASALA, which is not supported by any references.
• 4) Armenian's method of impressing on the minds of the world that there was an atrocity against them, and their insistence on revenge.. Who is insisting on revenge? The Armenians? Another glaring error which continues to lump ALL Armenians in the same boat with ASALA.

These sentences need to be removed or changed to information that can be supported by references. --Kansas Bear (talk) 01:10, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

The text like Armenian's method of impressing on the minds of the world is obviously propagandist and is written in a harming style. Seems to be a copypaste from a Turkish azeri site.Andranikpasha (talk) 09:30, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

a little late in seeing this, and you wrote your uptight stuff here AFTER I POLITELY EXPLAINED my position...on your talk page...

this is what I wrote, if you remember:

To prove my point, if you read RIGHT ABOVE my edit, in the adjacent section, it says this here already: "Since 1975, a couple of dozen Turkish diplomats or members of their families had been targeted in a couple of dozens of attacks, with the outcome that the Armenian revenge, as well as the background to the Armenian struggle, have made it through the world press. These notable acts, while practically carried out by a small group, were successful in conveying the Armenian Genocide and its silence to the forefront of international awareness.[10]"

It says right above my edit already the words

"targeted attacks"

"Armenian revenge"

"conveying the Armenian Genocide"

and

"international awareness".

Now, to your points.

I hear you when you say that it has not been literally every year, in certain years.   (I had a feeling that that was your issue with it).

That may have been a BIT of an over-statement, but the basic point is that it has been just about every year FOR A CERTAIN PERIOD.   Meaning, yes, not necessarily currently, but at one time.

so I have a question.   why not just fix that part of what I wrote, instead of just removing the whole thing?  if it was not technically every single year, then why not modify that part of it, instead of eliminating everything?

by the way, I'm curious.....do you think that I have this supposed "hatred" towards Armenians?   Or Turks?

You think that my addition was pro-Turkey or pro-Armenia?   I'm not sure how you're understanding it.

Because I really do NOT have "hatred" for either one.   For real.   (Although I personally believe that there WAS a Genocide, so I guess that would make me pro-Armenia in this situation.)   But what I put in was not POV, but simply a point of fact.   The organization at least at one time was assassinating Turkish leaders or diplomats pretty frequently, out of revenge.   Where is the POV in a factual statement, that was basically stated elsewhere in the very same article? Sweetpoet (talk) 04:54, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

First of all, bro, it was NOT a "glaring mistake" but a minor one, given that they did attack or assassinate Turkish leaders about every year at least for a TIME.   Even if it may not have been current.   That IS what went on.   And not that long ago.

Number two, it would be nice if you could lessen the hostility and rudeness.  As you seem to have hate and vitriol towards me over something so petty.   I took the time to communicate with you about the matter, and all you can do is be cold, arrogant, uncivil, and obnoxious.   and really uncool.   And I'm not really sure why and where it's coming from.   I really meant nothing bad with any of this.

Number three, my question was valid that instead of summarily removing the whole thing, Wikipedia policy and suggestion is to maybe modify something, instead of removing it.   The only thing, in what I put in, that was kind of a mistake is that it was not clear that the "every year" thing was not current.  The main point of what I put in there was that it was done out of "revenge" for what they claim was an atrocity against them.

Bottom line, Sir or Madam, is this:

only blatant vandalism and/or provably inaccurate things should be "undone" or "reverted"....not things that could go either way, and done in good faith, or that could maybe be reasonably modified....and what I put in was BASICALLY valid and true...."revenge" and "convey to the world" etc.

Also, you didn't answer my question.  Did you think that my supposed "hatred" was towards Turks? Or towards Armenians?  Just curious....cuz I wasn't sure why you said I had "hatred".   (Cuz I have no hatred for either.) Sweetpoet (talk) 06:18, 26 April 2010 (UTC) Sweetpoet (talk) 07:17, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Anyway, it's a closed matter from over 2 months ago now...but it was a loose end, because I didn't see the stuff you put on the Article talk page, until just now... (happenstance). And it's annoying that you still (days after the 26th of April, when I carefully and politely went over the points with you, etc) went on about "horrible mistake", simply because the attacks have not been current.

Conveniently forgetting that it WAS "every year" FOR A CERTAIN PERIOD. As was stated basically in the rest of the article tooo.....(sighs). Plus, what makes this even sillier, is that on a personal level, I'm actually more Pro-ARMENIAN.... duhhh....Yet because I simply stated a hard fact about "revenge" etc, you ASSumed that I was anti-Aremnia. That's hasty and sloppy, man.

And just cuz of saying "Armenian method" that has to be assumed that I meant "All Armenians", when CONTEXT OF THE ARTICLE is showing that it was only certain Armenians' goal. You (and your fellow editor agreeing with you) have MASSIVE UPTIGHTNESS and knee-jerkiness here. And it's NOT necessary and called for.

Armenians WERE DEFINITELY victims of Genocide way back, and this organization not that long ago DID attack Turks, and it was just about every year at a certain point in time. THAT'S ALL I WAS TRYING TO BRING OUT....and instead of being cool and calm about it, and simply modifying the addition, you had to go nuts over it, and blatantly remove all of it. And then EXAGGERATE the problems with it....ayayaya...I don't really care about this article. I'm only going over this because of the principle, that your rude obnoxious attitude with me was not really called for....anyway, the loose end is finally tied up. Peace out... Sweetpoet (talk) 07:23, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

ASALA is a terrorist organisation

This is a widely known fact. Just see here. So my edit was made in accordance to WP:W2W.--Quantum666 (talk) 19:28, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

Actually, no. I would suggest you read WP:Words To Avoid and check out the wording for other "militant"/"paramilitary" organizations like al-Qaeda, Hamas, Hezbollah, KKK. --Kansas Bear (talk) 19:57, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

Looked there. There is no avoidance of this word. But I've changed the attribution. Hope it improves the article. WP:W2W doesn't prohibit using the word. --Quantum666 (talk) 05:47, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

I expect to see your fervent concern for "article improvement" editing such groups as Turkish People's Liberation Party–Front/Revolutionary Coordination Unity, Communist Labour Party of Turkey/Leninist, People's Liberation Army of Turkey – Revolutionary Path of Turkey, Great Eastern Islamic Raiders' Front, just to name a few. --Kansas Bear (talk) 06:29, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Unfortunately I have never heard of these organisations but as soon as I learn more about them I will try to improve the articles. Can I rely on your assistance? --Quantum666 (talk) 06:59, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

ASALA and Wilsonian Armenia

This text The territory to be ceded would be the area promised to the Armenians at the never-ratified Treaty of Sèvres in 1920 by US President Woodrow Wilson, "Wilsonian Armenia". refers to Turkey, a country study(1988). I looked there but it doesn't mention any relationship between the demands of ASALA and Wilsonian Armenia. I think other sources should be provided. --Quantum666 (talk) 18:14, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Anti-Turkism

The Anti-Turkism category is not a right description for ASALA. The description of Anti-Turkism (it is the hostility towards Turkish people, Turkish culture, the Ottoman Empire (Turkish Empire) and the Republic of Turkey). ASALA was a Marxist-Leninist organization with leftist ideology so in their programm published in 1980 ("we re open for cooperation with Kurdish and Turkish organizatioans who recognizes the Armenian genocide", "Hayasdan" magazine, 1980, #1, p.3) and in all their statements they ask that theyre fighting against "Turkish fascist regime", but they cooperated with Turkish leftist organizations and make a propagand for all states peoples unity against "antihuman regimes". Specially for the Turkish people in the 1980s ASALA published Turkish version of "Hayastan" magazine.Andranikpasha 11:40, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes certainly killing people, just because they were Turkish diplomats or their supposes/children, coworkers, is not Anti-Turkism. /sarcasm Besides, embassies and consulates are the representatives of the Republic of Turkey. Deniz^T_C 20:14, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Denizz, there is a difference! They (ASALA) dont mean the representatives of Republic of Turkey, but representatives of the government (power) of the Republic of Turkey (as they didnt hate the Republic- why?, they disliked the government: "to compel the Turkish Government to acknowledge publicly its alleged responsibility for the deaths of 1.5 million Armenians in 1915, pay reparations, and cede territory for an Armenian homeland"). There is a big difference. Lenin kills the tzar and his family with children, he kills a lot of chinovnics (government supporters) of Tzarist Russia, but he is not described as a anti-Russian. There are a lot of examples like this. PS- By the way, in the cited source of Dr Hofmann she wrote that Turkish government recognized a collaboration between the ASALA and extreme left-wing Turkish opposition groups. Do you think Turkish leftists will co-operate with anti-Turkish organization? Andranikpasha 20:38, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Let me first say a few things, and then answer what you wrote above. A great part of my edit was, at least in my opinion, an improvement, following wiki policies etc. Please do not revert everything, if your only objection is about that category. We should also rephrase the quotations, as best as we can. Now, let me go backwards. Certainly groups in Turkey might have differing priorities, and they can cooperate with anyone they want, that does not mean much in our discussion.

Let me repeat here, ASALA were targeting people just b/c they were representatives of Turkey, or their relatives/coworkers, they probably didn't even know them. Lenin might be anti-Tzar, which is pro-Russian at the moment but these people were not anti-Tunalisligil, or something like that, the assassinated people were killed just b/c they were Turkish representatives. Deniz^T_C 01:18, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

No, Denizz, please feel the difference! That people were'nt killed as they were representatives of Turkey (we hadnt any direct source to ASALA announcement asking they are against Turkey) but they attacked only the people who were the representatives of the Government, all other deaths caused by attacks against economical, touristical power of Governement, but never (we hadnt such a source) just because they were representatives of Turkey, or Lebanon, France... Andranikpasha 08:12, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Andranikpasha, I see that you're acting in good faith, but unfortunately it's not possible to agree with you in the Anti-Turkism part. Even just thinking of the killed civilians in Esenboğa airport attack on 1982 is enough to say that. (who knows, maybe they were all recognizing armenian genocide)

Saying that ASALA was not anti-turkish is like saying that Talat pasha was not anti-armenian but he was just against the armenians who might have wanted an independent armenian country on the Ottoman Armenia (Eastern Anatolia). Kerem Özcan 10:59, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Kerem Özcan, anyways there is a big difference! There're sources, official papers and telegrams of "Ittihad ve Terraki" and Talat asking no Armenian must remain in the cities and villages of Western Armenia, but ASALA if even they killed Turks, Frenchs and others some of whom were recognizing Armenian Genocide, accents that their purpose is to "fight against the Turkish governemnt and its allies" (in their announcements ASALA apologizes for civilian deaths). Killings differs by the purposes. RAF (and many others) killed a lot of German (and other) civilians but we cant describe it as an anti-German movement b/c they never announce they are fighting against the country and/or its inhabitants, that they dislikes them and so on. They all were radical leftists with the ideas of common equality, brotherhood of all working people and "anti-Imperialist struggle", unfortunately with civilian victims during their activities. Andranikpasha 11:35, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Don't get me wrong I didn't claim that Talat Pasha was not anti-armenian. I just wanted to show the absurdity of your claim. I can move on with the same absurdity saying that Talat pasha was not anti-armenian, hence he had nothing against the armenians living under the russian rule, but he just didn't like the fact that armenians were living in the ottoman land - but it has nothing to do with armenian race(see that?) It doesn't make any difference if ASALA says that they are sorry for the killed civilians. Asala members were not exactly the best buddies with turkish people, and pleonasm won't change this fact. Would an ASALA member/sympathizer meeting with somebody for the first time would think of him/her differently as soon as he/she founds out that this newly met person is Turkish? that's the question. Kerem Özcan 13:06, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

You asked was Talat an anti-Armenian?- I say yes, as we have sources from he proving that. And you asked was ASALA anti-Turkish? I say no, as I represented some quotations from their program and announcements arguing their struggle was against government. If you have any other sources from ASALA proving that they dislike Turks or the Republic of Turkey off course we will add that category! but our POV and ratings on their activities are not an enough argument to classify any ideology and organization as anti-Turkish. Pls find any! For example, I think the killing of Hrant Dink was an anti-Armenian act. But when I add that category I need to cite any sources from the killers proving that they had anti-Armenian purposes. PS- Talat " just didn't like the fact that armenians were living in the ottoman land": is it even not enough criteria for his anti-Armenianism? Did ASALA ever announce such an idea? PS2- "Would an ASALA member/sympathizer meeting with somebody for the first time would think of him/her differently as soon as he/she founds out that this newly met person is Turkish?"- I dont think (if my own opinion is interesting for you I can ask why)! Anyways if you have any source asking that any ASALA member differs an unknown Turk from other people (included Armenians) when he meets him maybe Ill agree with you. Andranikpasha 14:18, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Well ASALA's purpose was to kill Turkish officials, it targeted a specific people so that narrows down to Anti-Turkism the category is not that bad, I say we use it maybe and be more sensitive to categories here. --Karent82 14:27, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

ASALA's purpose wasnt to kill the Turkish officials, their purpose was "to compel the Turkish Government to acknowledge publicly its alleged responsibility for the deaths of 1.5 million Armenians in 1915, pay reparations, and cede territory for an Armenian homeland" for what they practiced killings and bombings. Anti-Turkism is an ideology which ASALA never approved! As RAF is not anti-German (they kill many German officials and civilians), as even PKK is not categorized as an anti-Turkish, why ASALA is a anti-Turkish one? Andranikpasha 14:46, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

I would like to add that after the Esenboga airport incident, ASALA split into two groups and no civilians were killed after that. VartanM 15:53, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

ASALA was anti-Turkish organization, because its stated objective was to attack Turkish targets, its victims were primarily Turkish diplomats and civilians. Besides that, here is the reference:

• Graham E. Fuller, Ian O. Lesser, Turkey's New Geopolitics: From the Balkans to Western China, Westview Press, 1993, p. 55, ISBN 0813386608:
  • "Because of Syria's anti-Western orientation and its specific grievances with Turkey, it has for several decades supporting political movements hostile to Ankara, including three of Turkey's most dangerous opponents: the Armenian Marxist terrorist organization ASALA, radical Kurdish groups, and Turkish radicals. All have had operational and training bases in the Syrian-controlled Bekaa Valley in Lebanon, from which they have conducted anti-Turkish operations."

So the category Anti-Turkism is absolutely relevant on this page. Atabek 22:23, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

"Anti-Turkish operations" never means anti-Turkism (its an ideology, while anti-Turkish operations can mean everything, included operations against the government). Some of their operations someone can call anti-French or anti-Swiss (meaning the government), is it means they were anti-Frenchs (Francofobs)? They attacked not only ethnic Turks, but also others (sometimes without presence of even a Turkish individual in the operation place)... And for example RAF was attacked we can say especially German citizens and ethnic Germans, anyways, we dont describe them anti-German! There're a lot of examples. Further see below! Andranikpasha 06:27, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes we can describe them as anti-Turkish. Having attacked other targets (which were in a Turkish airlines spot in the airport) does not make them non-anti-Turkish. Really Andranik, you should stop this. Deniz^T_C 08:22, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your opinion Denizz! To prove their anti-Turkism sources needed!! And when ASALA for example attackes Lufthanza's office, what is it means??Andranikpasha 09:27, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

What exactly are you looking for Andranikpasha? You asked for anti-Turkish, you got anti-Turkish. And I don't even understand the meaning of this debate. As I stated above, they killed "Turkish diplomats" and their loved ones, by which I mean they did not kill just the guy ,say Tunalisligil, for personal matters or robbery or something like that, the guy was just the Turkish diplomat. This is pure racism, and accoring to UN definition it might even be called a genocide if governmental connections can be proven. It is pure anti-Turkish terrorism. Deniz^T_C 19:46, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Regarding their purpose was "to compel the Turkish Government to acknowledge publicly its alleged responsibility for the deaths of 1.5 million Armenians in 1915, pay reparations, and cede territory for an Armenian homeland": seriously, how on earth is murdering 200 people a viable means of recovering territory? What I mean is, their stated intention is absurd, and rather they appear to be motivated by revenge more than anything else. Their stated intention does not at all appear to be their actual motive force.

I searched New York Times history for anti-Turkish and ASALA and saw no sources. It's hard to imagine anything being more anti-Turkish than ASALA though, given just how ridiculous their pretenses were: "Oh, I see, you've killed 3 of my ambassadors! Indeed, the Armenian Genocide occurred, here is half my country and a billion dollars! Kthx!"

I don't have a citation for "anti-Turkish", however, either. Also, I object to the wording "Chronology of Armenian Terrorism", as it has a terribly prejudiced ring to it. Muslims are responsible for the atrocity of September 11, and yet it would be appallingly stupid to blame merely "Muslims" rather than the actual criminal elements; thus, it's also bigoted to suggest that any kind of terrorism could be "Armenian" (I know there are sources that misuse the ethnic identifier similarly, but that doesn't make it reasonable, moral, intelligent or true). Peace, DBaba 16:50, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

I am of similar opinion, but let me use a WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS argument for once: Islamist terrorism. Anyway, we don't matter. Also, since it is an external link, we can just probably remove them together, they are already in a 'bad state'. That reminded me of something. Deniz^T_C 19:46, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Deniz please chenge the year back to 1985, it is a well known fact that ASALA ceased to exist in 1985, any attacks claimed after that are not verified and are rejected by experts. Here is the quote from MIPT

ASALA between 1985 and 1997, but in the latter year, the Turkish Embassy in Brussels was bombed and a man called authorities claiming that the ASALA was responsible. However, experts doubt the veracity of this claim, and no further ASALA activity is expected.

As you can see the possibility of the bombing being carried out by ASALA is being rejected. VartanM 20:05, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

OK. Deniz^T_C 08:13, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Do I get this right? ASALA ain't an Anti-Turkish "group"? So it was just a coincidence that the people they killed were Turkish. "Oh, look, here are the children and wifes of them, they might be members of the Turkish Government, the same Government that does not accept that they killed our people, let's kill them too, just to be sure." What kind of sick reasoning is that? You are actually defending this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Arznabonodus (talk • contribs) 03:39, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

No Evidence for Attacks in U.S.

TERRORIST GROUP PROFILES Naval Postgraduate School U.S. Navy site seems to be the basis for the main article. This article does not mention any attacks in the U.S., just a few attacks in Europe during the 1980s.

Federation of American Scientists Intelligence Resource program simply duplicates the US Navy info. Mentions that the organization is inactive.

If there had been attacks in the U.S., the U.S. government history of the ASALA would certainly have mentioned it. DJ Silverfish 08:42, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Prof. Ezel Kural Shaw was my instructor two years ago, and when I asked her about the Armenian claims, she told me the disgusting event, in which a gang of Armenian extremists tried to kill the Shaw family at UCLA. Luckily they did not die; she and her husband Prof. Stanford Shaw are still professors of history at Bilkent University, Ankara-Turkey.

The attacks in USA were actually claimed by Justice Commandos against Armenian Genocide (JCAG), not ASALA.

October 6, 1980, USA: Harut Sassounian attempted to kill the Turkish general consul, Kemal Arikan. Harut Sassounian was sentenced to 6 years of jail; his brother Hampig "Harry" Sassounian assassinated Kemal Arikan in 1982.

October 12, 1980, New York, USA: A bomb planted under a stolen automobile parked in front of the United Nations Plaza and Turkish Center, exploded at 4:50 p.m., minutes before hundreds of employees and tourists exit the United Nations building which closes at 5 p.m. The bomb, which has the force of nine sticks of dynamite, demolished the automobile, hurling the parts of the vehicle in all directions; all that remained of the vehicle is the rear bumper. The flying pieces of metal and glass as well as flames from the blast injured five Americans. The explosion destroyed a vehicle parked across the street, and causes significant damage to the 11-story Turkish Center, and blows out the windows of nearby buildings, including B’nai B’rith, Chase Manhattan Bank, the African American Center, a travel agency and numerous apartment complexes.

October 12, 1980, Los Angeles: the offices of Imperial Travel, a Hollywood travel agency owned by a Turkish American, Ali Ondemir, were partially destroyed by a bomb; a tourist was wounded.

June 3, 1981, Orange, USA: a bomb exploded in the Orange County Convention Center in Anaheim, the scheduled site of a Turkish folk dance and music show, causing extensive damage. Two days before, bomb threats provoked cancellation of another Turkish show, in San Francisco.

November 20, 1981, Los Angeles: a bomb caused extensive damage where the Turkish consulate of LA is located, 8730 Wilshire Blvd, Beverly Hill. Serge Samionian, Secretary of the Los Angeles Chapter of the Armenian National Committee of America, submitted a letter to Los Angeles World Affairs Council (LAWAC), stating “2000 Armenians are expected to turn out for the demonstration against the Ambassador” of Turkey and requesting that the Ambassador's speech be canceled “in the interest of public safety."

January 28, 1982, USA: Turkish consul general Kemal Arıkan was shot to death in his car as he sat at a stoplight in Los Angeles. Four people were taken into custody; Harry Sassounian, 19 at the time of the killing, was later convicted of first degree murder. The jury found that Sassounian killed Arikan "because of his nationality", leading to a sentencing of life in prison without possibility of parole. In 2002, the sentence was changed in life with no possibility of parole during 25 years, but Sassounian's demand of parole were rejected in 2006 and 2010. An accomplice, believed to be Krikor (Koko) Saliba, is still at large.

May 4, 1982: Police sought the Armenian assassin who shot New England's honorary Turkish consul general in Somerville, Massachusetts, Orhan Gündüz, whose import shop in Cambridge was the target of a previous attack, was shot by a man dressed in a jogger's outfit, as he sat in his car. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Arznabonodus (talk • contribs) 05:50, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Number of attacks

I think this can be used in "Attacks" section, but I don't know how to make it alight on right. --Yerevanci (talk) 02:23, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

File:The trial of ASALA members in Paris, 1984.jpg Nominated for speedy Deletion

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Orly

There are plenty of sources on the nationality of the people killed in Orly airport by ASALA. For instance: [15] [16] Grandmaster 21:40, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

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