Talk:Arkham Asylum: A Serious House on Serious Earth/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: ChrisGualtieri (talk · contribs) 05:42, 4 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Starting review points:

The tarot and other links for this quote seem to be original research, could you explain on how you are certain of these themes apply specifically to these links for ": the Moon, the Shadow, the Mirror, the Tower, and the Mother's Son."?
The "Conception and influences" section is dominated by quotations, while this is questionable, the third quote doesn't add anything that paraphrasing really could not.
Every quotation needs a reference. No exceptions, per MINREF.
"Story" should use page references - it helps in verification, but I suppose it is not exactly a requirement.
" The Joker was also originally going to be a Madonna-like transvestite. Evidence of this in the final draft is of the clownfish in Amadeus Arkham's aquarium, which start off as males and grow into females after they mature. The Joker also mentions the fact that he wears high heels in the final draft." - At minimum needs to be explained because this sounds like OR and it lacks a page reference. Page references should be included for all citations of Arkham Asylum: A Serious House on Serious Earth
For "Critical reaction and legacy" - please identify the writer of each comment as you did with the first and final paragraphs. Again, MINREF.
"The novel is briefly homaged in the film Batman Begins; in the film, Jonathan Crane's entrance to the asylum's cellar with Rachel Dawes mirrors the Joker's own entrance with Batman in the novel." - Seems OR.
"The game Batman: Arkham Asylum is loosely based on the comic, following a similar premise and featuring several similar episodes, such as the fight with Killer Croc." Also seems OR.
The end seems to be more OR, because while influence is noted, but the actual comment is not in the cited source and the examples used are also not present.
Also... noticed this a bit late, since I haven't really delved into the text much, but "novel will freak out you" and why is Sun News Network above the much better sources?

I am particularly worried about the citations and degree of comments that seem to be original research. It has some pretty big issues with referencing. Improper titling of sources and improper spelling as well. References are not complete, and are lacking some key information which helps in identification of the author and publication. "How the Joker Works" is somehow sourced entirely improperly to the Discovery Channel, as just the prime example of this. Anyways... I'll give this a shot, but let's start with these fixes first. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 05:42, 4 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Fixes

The quote isn't about theme, it's just about Morrison talking of the things he used in making the story. Its a quote, he just mentions them. If you want I can trim it.
Added reference to a quote, and already rid of the third quote.
Added a reference to the plot, if it helps
Trimmed the Joker part and fixed the super sanity reference.
The "15th Anniversary edition" doesn't have reference pages (concerning its an actual comic book), all there is are the introduction and Morrison's own words.
Added author's name in Critical reception legacy except for Sun News Network. The site doesn't say any name, if you want I can just delete it.
I'm also having problems with what you are asking for "in other media" section. I did find a reference for the film, but a reference for the video game's examples I couldn't. If you want I can just remove the examples, or better yet remove the whole section itself.

Will be fixing some more. Fixed some of the titles in citations. If there's anything more please tell me.Bulls123 (talk) 15:37, 4 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

For the first part about the symbolism, the article references tarot cards and the "Mother's son" which links to the Psycho film. This seems a bit unusual because there seems to be no indication that these are the correct sources of symbolism, hence the original research part. This has also been mentioned before by another editor over a year ago. I find it very valid and I was drawn to the claims and found those dubious. Another part is the "Mad Hatter" comments, which seem to also be debated by an editor from 2008 - this needs to be looked into. Also I understand that pages are always an issue in certain books, and I don't expect this article to be like Maus, but I don't think its been as covered as best it can. Still for a Good Article, it need not be entirely comprehensive. For that Sun News Network.... could we put it lower in terms of prominence - it is afterall the editors or someone's top 5, but their name and ability to make that a reliable or proper judgement seems questionable.

Better comes from from Joseph Szadkowski of the Washington Times who's article states "it is one of the key sequential-art stories of the Batman library."[1] Here's like the best comment to back up the Alice in Wonderland references: " In an interview with Tasha Robinson on the A.V. Club Web site, McKean recalls working with Grant Morrison on Arkham Asylum: "Grant had written the script, and it had a lot of elements that I liked, and a lot that I didn't.… So we talked about it, and he was really keen to rewrite it, to make it much more symbolic, much more like some strange Alice in Wonderland story. And that was just perfect timing for where his head was at. So that's what we did." [2] The story opens with a quote from Lewis Carroll's 1865 novel Alice's Adventures in Wonderland, which aptly sets the mood for this surrealistic horror story..."[3]

Another goes even higher and deeper into it:

"This lavishly produced graphic novel was illustrated with macabre photorealist paintings by Dave McKean (see entry). Les Daniels noted that "Since the story was intended to present the hero as a symbolic construct, Batman is a shadowy figure, defined only in relationship to the evil he encounters." ... The original hardcover graphic novel, expensively priced at $24.95, sold more than 182,000 copies (and another 85,000 copies were sold in paperback), helping to establish the graphic novel as a commercially viable publishing format. According to the Grant Morrison Web site, the series "has sold 500,000 copies worldwide and won numerous awards, making it the most successful original graphic novel to be published in America."[4]

And one last one from me - since you see the point- "When he wrote his graphic novel Arkham Asylum: A Serious House on a Serious Earth (1989) in which Batman is pushed to the brink of madness by the Joker he was forced to re-write scenes by Warner Brothers, who owned DC Comics and were about to release Tim Burton's Batman. In the original script Morrison had The Joker capering in a basque, however the film executives were concerned lest comic fans picture Jack Nicholson as a transvestite."[5]

Plenty more out there, and I just provided the relevant text to fix it, but let me know where you want to go with it and I'll be glad to help since Highbeam and a few other resources are not exactly obtainable by all. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 15:59, 4 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Re: Thanks for the references and I've added some on the article. The Mother's son thing, that I copletely did not see so I just rid of it. About the Mad Hatter thing on the other hand the talk says about his pedophilic nature being used by authors before which was completely unreferenced, but I've removed it anyway. The highbeams on the other hand, although many were helpful, the ones about Dave McKean, Alice in Wonderland, and Grant Morrison didn't really give me much and was hard to attain so I just didn't add them (sorry). What I really need and I'm trying my best to find is a site that has, even just an excerpt, or Morrison's original script printed in the 15th Anniversary edition. That sole thing would really help with the article. Most of the things I found that describes the scripts were sadly blogs. I did have the book, but the scripts weren't really in a page and was just in a section.Bulls123 (talk) 17:17, 4 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

New references has been added and old reference fixed. 112.210.42.13 (talk) 04:49, 5 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Give me a bit more time I'm just going to check some archives for a bit more. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 04:55, 5 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

OK. The lead is a bit unbalanced and it should not have content that is not in the body, this means "The subtitle is taken from line 55 of the Philip Larkin poem "Church Going."[1]" - Though the reference mentions the Larkin poem, it does not state line 55. So please fix that and place it in the body as well. Also, the Madonna-like comment on the Joker seems a bit odd, I was more specific for the "In the original script Morrison had The Joker capering in a basque" then adding a "Madonna-like". Word choice please. It is a little loose with such terms as is, but I insist on accuracy for this. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 05:04, 5 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed the lead and added the poem to the body. Removed the "Madonna-like" word (word didn't exist in the book) and replaced it. Added better references as well.Bulls123 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 18:41, 5 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

In cite 4 " Hill, Caroline. "Douban: Arkham Asylum 15th Anniversary Ed". Douban. April 1, 2012" That essay was originally published in the 15th Anniversary Edition. It appears Douban just copied and pasted onto their site. maclean (talk) 17:49, 7 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
This article should explain the creative differences between Morrison and McKean. The articles “A Serious House on Serious Earth”: Rehabilitating Arkham Asylum. By: Singer, Marc. International Journal of Comic Art, Fall 2006, Vol. 8 Issue 2, p269-282. and Myth and the Superhero: Personal Choice in Batman, Arkham Asylum: A Serious House on Serious Earth. By: Anderson, Leslie J.. International Journal of Comic Art, Spring2012, Vol. 14 Issue 1, p507-524 would provide more substantial content regarding the themes, style, and reception. The first paragraph of the "Critical reaction and legacy" section should be expanded to note the publication details of the book (some of which is noted in the lead but not followed through in the body) and specifically, the extra content in the 15th Anniversary Edition (The Singer article above notes the friction between Morrison and McKean and the latter's absence in that anniversary edition). maclean (talk) 20:00, 7 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Done! Removed the Douban reference. Added more bulk to the Themes. I also added the creative difference of Morrison and McKean. Also added more in the critical reception and legacy. Used a better reference.Bulls123 (talk) 08:26, 8 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The last oart about Mckean being absent, is unneccessary. Its based solely on singer's opinion and migt be OR. The clashing of morrison and McKean, I think is better be put in Concepts than themes.Godzilladude123 (talk) 17:13, 9 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Updates

Fixed some information and added more references. Anything else?Bulls123 (talk) 10:56, 21 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Just got back from a trip, will check and likely pass, but give me a bit longer to review the whole page again. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 09:32, 24 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]