Talk:Ariaz

Possible re-write

Hey guys. For a while I've been working on essentially a re-write of this article to cut back the trivia and improve sources. I've been working on it in my sandbox here. I copy-pasted a version of the article as it was when I started (can be seen in history) and started working from there. All sources are archived, and I tried to cut out some of the more trivial information on the pre-debut section. I also didn't mention, for example, the placings of members who competed in Produce 101 or Mix Nine, as this can be seen at the respective articles and isn't relevant to the group.

There are also a few things I'm struggling to find reliable sources for, such as their three-episode variety show, so any help on this would be appreciated, too.

I'd appreciate any feedback on whether you think they should be merged. I'm also not sure how this should be done, whether a copy-paste with note of this is appropriate or if the sandbox should be merged to merge the history? If anyone knows, please let me know.

Pinging those who have edited this article and who I see editing similar articles frequently: @Moon Luigi, Ceethekreator, Bearcat, Ontarrio, Abdotorg, CherryPie94, Explicit, Dawnseeker2000, Bonnielou2013, Snowflake91, and DanielleTH: though of course anyone else is welcome to add input. Alex (talk) 15:53, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

I dont think there is a need to re-write it? We could edit some things, sure. But the pre-debut information is short anyway and dont include that much unnecessary information to edit the whole thing.

Also some of your information is wrong. Their fancafe wasnt closed, it just wasnt active and they still used it after they came back in 2018. Sihyeons song is called "Wonderful day", its the official translation. Yunji and Sihyeon were on Mixnine too, not only Hyogyeong. And they used the name "Empire Girls" since they started posting covers in October 2018, not only in December.

For some information they arent any official sources. Hyogyeong only mentioned her solo songs on Mixnine and posted links on Twitter, thats why we know about it. I think its an important part of the pre-debut period, so I included it. Also there arent any articles about their variety show either, you can find it on Youtube. No sources for them being backup dancers, only the videos and their sns updates. Maybe some day they will talk about it in interviews, but for now we cant include anything. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ontarrio (talk • contribs)

@Alexanderlee:

@Ontarrio: the pre-debut section isn’t short at all, it’s at least three times larger than their actual history as a group. Things that I haven’t included are things that I can’t find sources for; if you can’t find a reliable source for it at all, then it shouldn’t be mentioned in the article. As for the fan cafe, I was going by what sources I could find. If this isn’t the case, could you point out other sources which confirm this? Alex (talk) 15:28, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

@Alexanderlee: They debuted 2 months ago, their pre-debut period started around 2013, its normal that it will be much longer? The only source is the fancafe notice posted on March 6, 2017 I think? Which you cant link anyway, but maybe part of it is mentioned in some article, I havent seen a translation of the whole notice. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ontarrio (talk • contribs)

I think you're mistaking individual members pre-debut history with the groups pre-debut history. A member being on a show in 2013 isn't relevant to the group. Though it's worth mentioning that I didn't remove this show appearance, I'm just saying that the section isn't "short anyway", as you claimed. If said member eventually had her own article, then it would be more relevant there. And again, if reliable sources can't be found then the information shouldn't be included in the article. If reliable sources are found in the future, add the information then. As a side note, please remember to sign your comments with four tildes (~~~~). Alex (talk) 16:42, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

So I would just do the merge by copy-paste since it is the easiest way - it is defo ready to be moved to the main article despite some small {cn}'s. Also regarding the items needing citations: do you know what network this Empire Girls variety show aired on (if it was only a YouTube show just remove it) - seems like finding a source for that and the other items could be hard. Abdotorg (talk) 20:43, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

You have my support for the copy paste. --Redalert2fan (talk) 21:18, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

@Alexanderlee: Looking at your changes, I quite like them. It's mostly just clean up, making the prose better and creating paragraphs, and cutting down on fan trivia. I agree that, when mentioning a member of a group appeared on a show, you don't need to talk about where they placed (unless they made it into the fine lineup). Falls under WP:FAN to me. These pages are about the group's career as a whole, not about the members. Should any of them be notable enough solo to get a page then that stuff can be added there. Hyogyeong is the only member who could even get a solo page since she had a brief solo career, but I don't think any of the survival stuff even applies to her. I'll try and look for the three sources you're missing as well, though if that information is truly nowhere then it's really not reliable enough for the page anyway. I did see another editor mention that Hyogyeong put it on twitter, and if the tweet only says she released solo music under a different name, that meets the WP:TWITTER and you could use {{cite tweet}}.

Situations like these really make me wish that Wikipedia:WikiProject Korea/Popular culture had a more cohesive style guide than it does currently, but not a lot of discussion actually happens there for something like a style guide to be added. (There's actually an RfC ongoing there that has little attention, but I digress.)

In terms of copy/pasting or histmerge, since you're the only one who worked on your sandbox copy/pasting should be fine. Copy/pasting is only an issue as it messes with the attribution for the article's content, but if you're just putting it back on the page you took it from and no other editors worked on the sandbox page, the attribution still there. DanielleTH ^{(Say hi!)} 21:22, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

Hi Alex.....I actually spent some time yesterday looking for a source for their variety show Empire Girls at the MT which you asked for. Unfortunately, in both languages I could find nothing, other than their YouTube channel. And very little else in good sources about the group, too....except on November 15 (and just post debut) about Jueun's issue, which media covered thoroughly.

Anyway, about your Re-write. It looks better than the original over-all. I didn't review your citations for accuracy, but trust you on that. You filled in the citation templates and removed blogs. You made the text body more cohesive and readable, with all information cited, except where you noted.

As to how to make the edits. I usually prefer a line-by-line of edits and corrections, with an Edit Summary, instead of an entire overhaul done with one edit. If I am making a lot of changes, I also prefer leaving a message on the original editor's Talk page (if they contributed a lot) to notify them and ask their opinion. (you added Moon Luigi here, but just in case they aren't pinged, as they don't have an active User page).

But, with your entire Re-write, you might do the entire page replacement, by copy-pasting your changes, which will credit you; but add an Edit Summary and a page link to the discussion at this Talk page about changes. That way, other contributing Ariaz page editors may read and/or discuss changes you also made to their edits, in total.

You did a lot of needed work, and in the future, please consider just editing the original page, as if you are working on a draft. Other editors can respond to the line-by-line changes and Edit Summaries easier, and also learn from the mistakes you are pointing out. Thanks,--Bonnielou2013 (talk) 04:08, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

• Following feedback here, I've gone ahead and copy-pasted from the sandbox to the article. I have also left a message on @Moon Luigi:'s talk page inviting them to join the discussion. For Hyogyeong's releases I couldn't find the tweets mentioning this. @Ontarrio:, do you have any links to these tweets? Also to address some issues you pointed out, Ontarrio, I altered the wording for them being Known as Empire Girls, and didn't mention a specific time frame. I also changed the translation of Sihyun's OST and included the Hangul title for it. I hope this addresses some of your concerns. Alex (talk) 19:20, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

@Alexanderlee: Unfortunately, she doesnt directly say that these songs are hers so I doubt they will be useful but here are the tweets: 1, 2 & 3. Also the statement was released on September 15, not September 19. Ontarrio (talk) 18:41, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

@Ontarrio: Thanks for the links, and for pointing out the incorrect date. I'm not sure how we can go about the tweets, so we'll wait for further input from other editors on this? For the date, I changed it to Sep. 16 as this is what the source used in the article states, but please free to change it to Sep. 15 if you know of an article which states that date.