Talk:Archie Battersbee case/Archive 1

Archive 1

Judgement summary

I have attempted to put together a summary table for the court outcomes, as I did for Miller 2 and the Charlie Gard case. I have not been able to find documents on the courts' websites for all of the decisions listed in the timeline. Can someone else help in looking for them? Robin S. Taylor (talk) 11:33, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

Other countries

The article currently claims:

Three other countries (Japan, Turkey and Italy) offered to take him for treatment.

but this is cited only to a web page which says:

[Archie's mother] claimed that doctors in Japan, Italy and Turkey have offered to treat Archie

This is not the same thing. The mother is not reliable in this context. Either a better source should be provided, or the claim should be modified, or removed. Which is preferred? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:22, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

The mother's claim should be removed. Grimes2 (talk) 16:28, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

The phrase "ligature over his head"

An ITV source says "Archie was found unconscious at home on 7 April with a ligature over his head, and his mother believes he was taking part in an online challenge." I seriously doubt that he had put a suture over his head, which is what the article implies since the word ligature links to Ligature (medicine). I haven't looked at all the sources, but is there a source that uses some other word. Sjö (talk) 10:57, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

Some sources say "belt from a dressing gown". Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:25, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

At para 11 in citation [1], the High Court judge says "suspended by his neck from the banisters" ... "messing around with a dressing gown cord". The phrase 'round his head' appears in many reports, as a quote from the time. The suspected motive, the TikTok 'Blackout Challenge', apparently requires self-strangulation restricting blood vessels and/or the airway in the neck. A common method for this, for situations independent of this challenge, is a ligature tightened around the neck. If the challenge involved releasing the restriction once consciousness is lost, that could not always be achieved without an accomplice when using this method. Freddie Orrell (talk) 13:30, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

I suspect it's the general meaning of ligature, which is also widely known and used, but not specifically a medical ligature (suture). Maybe just unlink that word? 146.198.240.25 (talk) 12:46, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

Seems likely. Maybe Wiktionary would be a better place to link? That contains the generalised definition (which may be unfamiliar to some readers). QueenofBithynia (talk) 12:52, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

The word ligature has a specific meaning in the fields of forensics and mental health care. It refers to a cord tightened to restrict part of the body, usually the neck when hanging or garrotting. See the term 'ligature risk' for further context. Freddie Orrell (talk) 13:15, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

I have added the specific meaning to the Wiktionary entry and changed the link to that. Freddie Orrell (talk) 14:26, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

I've piped the link, to Strangling. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 17:49, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

Illustration

Now that he is (completely) dead, can we make a fair use claim on the photographs of him that have been widely used by his mother and the newspapers? Robin S. Taylor (talk) 14:05, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

I believe we can do so for an image, but not multiple images. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:19, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Joshua Rozenberg

In [1] and the preceding posts to which it links, Joshua Rozenberg offers some useful analysis and commentary. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:37, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

Flag cruft

Do we need flags in the table of court cases? In particular, why have the flag of England on courts that pertain to "England and Wales"? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:24, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

You're right, the flag of Wales is required alongside that of England. The High Court and Court of Appeal have jurisdiction over England and Wales (so the latter flag is missing), the Supreme Court over the UK (flag correct) and the ECHR over Europe (flag correct). This should be edited. Freddie Orrell (talk) 13:43, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

I removed the flags before I saw this thread as they did not comply with MOS:FLAGS. -- DeFacto (talk). 16:30, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

The flags were used to denote the jurisdictions of the various courts (some being just for England and Wales, one for the whole UK, one for the Council of Europe). They take up less space than typing out the name of the jurisdiction. Robin S. Taylor (talk) 18:59, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

That's not what flag icons are for though (see MOS:FLAGS), and wouldn't work unless you could recognise the flags and know which of the jurisdictions they might refer to that they actually referred to. -- DeFacto (talk). 20:31, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

Perhaps I could colour code the rows instead? Robin S. Taylor (talk) 13:48, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Colour coding seems like a good idea QueenofBithynia (talk) 15:32, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

No, it doesn't. This is all unnecessary. Why does it matter that the Supreme Court covers Scotland while the Court of Appeal doesn't when this case was in London. Stop trying to over-complicate things. Readers can follow the existing links to Court of Appeal if they want to know more background. Bondegezou (talk) 22:06, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

I agree with @Bondegezou, and colours come with a whole set of problems of their own, and are unnecessary for this simple table. -- DeFacto (talk). 09:06, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

Summary of Judgments table

The table's recently been edited to change all the court names to what looks like the abbreviated form for neutral citation, as shown on the court documents cited. It seems more difficult to understand which court has made the judgment now that their names have been abbreviated, . Suggest that the court names are reverted back to the previous format, as per the court name shown on the court documents, as they are the more familiar names used and so that readers don't have to follow links or search elsewhere for the information. IndigoBeach (talk) 09:57, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Agreed. I have reverted that. Bondegezou (talk) 11:13, 12 August 2022 (UTC)