Talk:Arabic chat alphabet

Arabish as Pinpointer of Atheism

Many atheists select the Arabish latin alphabet for politically objecting to Quran's alphabet. Atheist Arab scholars reject the claim that Arabish cannot describe all sounds. The final form of official Arabish is intented to allow more latin auxiliary punctuation marks from other Muslim countries like Turkey but also european letter punctuation as depicted in German, French, Danish, Norwegian, Swedish, or even allow new punctuation simulating the International Phonetic Alphabet when needed (the letter remains latin, only the auxiliary punctuation might simulate the International Phonetic Alphabet, if there is not any available older option). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.84.206.14 (talk) 02:32, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

Capitalization?

I see no reason why the title of this article is capitalized. It should probably be moved to "Arabic chat alphabet". // habj 20:28, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Differences

Hi I am tunisian and in Tunisia we use different numbers to represent the arabic letters maybe you should verify if everybody use the same script?

The differences are :

ﻖ = 9

I don't know if we have special letters for ﺺ and ﺾ but we don't use the 9.

We use also in general french vowels not the english ones thx

Nice contribution

First I would add that it is nice contribution, and I hope it will be developed in the future,..

I have a question and it is simple but hard,...

what reference do you have for the table mentioned in the article (arab letters in the article) 81.203.153.252 04:36, 7 May 2007 (UTC)donquimico

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Keyboard

"because they don't always have Arabic keyboards"? They do have Arabic keyboards, yet they use Arabic chat alphabet as a fancier slang. Mohamed Magdy (talk) 09:54, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Stand-alone Initial Medial Final

Is it necessary to have all 4 graphic forms of Arabic letters in the table? After all the article is about an ASCII transcription, not how to write in the Arabic alphabet which has its own article. --JWB (talk) 21:33, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

In the "Printable version", initials and medials are displayed with the isolated form. I guess this issue is well known and common to all articles dealing with or using the Arabic script, but maybe it's worth mentioning. 131.114.58.49 (talk) 09:53, 25 March 2011 (UTC) andrea

Arrange by frequency and importance?

• 7 and 3 seem to be universal; on the other hand I haven't seen some of the other digit or letter transcriptions anywhere. Shouldn't we list the most used first, or have some indication of which are used more?
• Some letter transcriptions like b, d, f, h, l, m, n, r, s, t, w, z are standard in all Arabic-Roman transcriptions. Do those really need to be listed, or if they are there, do the significant parts of ACA (the digit transcriptions) need to be mixed in with them, making them harder to find?
• Also, the most frequent use for this documentation of ACA is when someone sees ACA, doesn't know what 7, 3, etc. mean, and wants to look them up. The current table is ordered by Arabic alphabet alphabetical order, which is better set up for transcribing from Arabic alphabet to ACA; but this will be a less common scenario. --JWB (talk) 21:45, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Examples

Someone who has not seen this 'alphabet' used in practise before could conclude from the table and the examples provided that it is a more or less fixed transliteration system for Modern Standard Arabic. In reality, however, it is almost always used to transliterate spoken Arabic, i.e. dialects, and there is an enormous amount of variation. For example, contrary to what the table suggests, both س and ص are usually represented by 's'; the distinction by using a capital 'S' for ص looks very neat, but I have never seen it in use. I would therefore suggest to provide more realistic examples, such as: (Lebanese) kif/keef sa7tak, chou/shu 3am ta3mil? weyn baddak nitghada? etc. Maybe it should also be noted that - in parallel with Arabic writing - there is a tendency to omit vowels.--79.219.118.88 (talk) 14:33, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Bad example

I think one should correct the first Arabic example. It says that Wikipedia is "the gratis dictionary on the internet". But it's not a "gratis dictionary", it's a "free encyclopedia" (الموسوعة الحرة). roozbeh (talk) 23:07, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

• fixed. Daouuud (talk) 09:40, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm not quite sure about the relevance of "a7a :D" in the second Egyptian example. Though, it's quite funny and resembles Egyptian culture quite well, "the a7a people". Otherwise, excellent article that helped me understand my Egyptian peers! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.239.21.185 (talk) 21:01, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Other chat alphabets?

Have the users of other alphabets developed their own chat alphabets? Have any of them evolved an ASCII keyboard input method (like Yamli)? If so, it would be useful to link to them in "See Also" or "External Links". (I would like to have input methods for Hebrew and Chinese, for example.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Eall Ân Ûle (talk • contribs) 00:42, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Modern Standard Arabic

I wonder, if Modern Standard Arabic isn't written in Roman ASCII, where and why is there an example on something which isn't real? I suggest deleting the Modern Standard Arabic section as it is unrealistic. --Mahmudmasri (talk) 09:38, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm going to delete it. If someone thinks it shouldn't be, would he please provide a reasons why and prove that Roman ASCII is used in Modern Standard Arabic. --Mahmudmasri (talk) 09:40, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Arabish not explained

The term "Arabish" now occurs suddenly in the middle of the article, without any explanation. If it is just a synonym, then it should occur as such in the lead. If it is a different term of any relevance, then it should be explained. That said, the problem may lie deeper: It seems to me that both are just vague terms for Arabic transliterations with Latin characters. If that is so, maybe this article should be renamed to reflect that general topic? — Sebastian 18:16, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Agreeed. I don't see how this article differs from Arabish — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.170.35.126 (talk) 03:11, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

The phrase "tools that convert text written in Arabish to Arabic" implies there is a difference. The issue remains unresolved so far. Simon de Danser (talk) 22:07, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

Rare Arabic-based letters

Some Arabic-based letters are rare and not commonly found in normal Arabic fonts, that's why I tagged them with {{Script/Arabic}}. --Mahmudmasri (talk) 05:59, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

In that case, why not use {{Script/Arabic}} rather than {{lang}} (actually lang|ar) throughout the table? I'm not sure why these two templates use different fonts. @alex (talk) 07:00, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

OK, I'll use it in the both tables. --Mahmudmasri (talk) 07:11, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Naming conventions

How can both

the main name is "Aralish" or "Arabish" (as "Ara"/"Arab" stands for the first letters of "Arabic" and "Lish"/"ish" stands for the last letters of "English").

and

Arabish and Arabizi are not known namings.

be true? I don't know which one to delete/amend.69.157.22.79 (talk) 03:41, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Oops.Purplezart (talk) 03:42, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Problem solved. The paragraph was about what is known to Egyptians. You have to take care that this article deals with something used in and known with many different names from the Atlantic ocean to the Persian Gulf! --Mahmudmasri (talk) 23:50, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Terminology and History

I've just edited this page to remove terminology discussion from the history section. Refer to the article's history diff. If terminology is a significant issue such that it warrants its own detailed discussion, dedicate a subsection to it.

Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.184.49.237 (talk) 09:27, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Gulf Arabic and the harf "bi"

I noticed the following in the example for Gulf Arabic:

كيف الحال؟ وش بتسوون اليوم؟

The harf "bi" is put before verbs in Egyptian Arabic and that's well known. I have never heard Gulf Arabs use "bi" before verbs like Egyptians do though, not from any Kuwaiti (or recently, Saudi and Emerati) Ramadan dramas nor from listening to friends from the region speak. As far as I know, a Gulf Arab would say تسوون without the ب particle. Wondering of other editors could chime in with what they've heard. MezzoMezzo (talk) 10:03, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

New article redirected to this one

Click. --KhalidAliHaji (talk) 12:59, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Original research

The section "Examples" is a perfect example (pun) of what an original reasearch is and should be deleted. And even if I might not (how some editor has charcterized me) "understand how Arabic letters are used in dialects", I perfectly understand how Wikipedia works. So people, who think they do "understand how Arabic letters are used in dialects", will have to understand the principles of Wikipedia as well. And understanding of these principles is of no less importance than understanding (supposedly) of the matter. For example, the article by Palfreyman & Al Khalil clearly shows that the numerals are used much often than some letters or digraphs. And I'm sure those two scientists understand the matter better than some editors here represent themselves, so I even do not have to be an expert in it as well, I just can rely on reliable sources and that will be enough.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 15:23, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

Opinionated political details

@Sambasoccer27: Why do we need those details about political interpretation about how Egyptians and Moroccans use Latin alphabet? What does it have to do with Suez crisis and the French presence in Africa? Not only Egyptians follow a more Anglicized orthography, but others. The same applies to French and Morocco. Both are used in Lebanon based on one's education! And actually, Egyptians also use the ou digraph for /uː/ which is French inspired. Till the second world war, French was the most common second language in Egypt, and Egypt became independent in 1922, and the British Empire had no rule over Egypt. Having troops based on agreements doesn't make it an occupied country, otherwise the Persian Gulf would be an American colony! So, even when Egypt was politically influenced with the British Empire before 1922, French was the second language and the diplomatic language of choice, not English! Your edit currently incorrectly suggests that only Egyptians use an Anglicized spelling and only Moroccans use a Frenchified spelling.

Hello again @Mahmudmasri:, I hope you're doing well. You should not have reverted the edit you object to as you also removed information to which you have not expressed objection, specifically the information about "2" representing ق and ء in Egyptian Arabizi. The intention is to illustrate how these informal Arabic chat alphabets vary from one place to another based on influence from colonial pasts and the phonology of local Arabic dialects. The fact that former British colonies use English orthography while former French colonies use French orthography is not a coincidence and this information provides useful context. The reason I chose to add the information specifically about the Egyptian and Moroccan varieties is simply that I am more familiar with language and history in Morocco and Egypt than other places. By the way, could you substantiate your claims that French was more significant than English in Egypt even after the Entente Cordiale of 1904, and that Egypt became more than nominally independent in 1922?

If you feel that the article as it stands suggests that only Egypt uses English orthography, even with this text at the beginning of the section: "Each of the different varieties of Arabic chat alphabets is influenced by the particular phonology of the Arabic dialect being transcribed and the orthography of the dominant European language in the area—typically the language of the former colonists. Below are some examples of Arabic chat alphabet varieties," then I encourage you to contribute more to the Shami section.

Let's work together to improve the article. Sambasoccer27 (talk) 01:33, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

Let's not bloat the article

Your additions weren't Egyptian specific. The 2 for the glottal stop spelled with ق isn't Egyptian specific and isn't only used for ق, but also for ء (and its other forms) and has nothing to do with English or French. That was inappropriately detailed. Each article of the dialects has the phonological details.

You wrote things about consonant clusters, assuming that people write Franco-Arab in a unified manner. I doubt that you've ever read or used it. That even counters the sourced material about how it is used.

The table already shows the various characters used for each Arabic letter.

I'm not sure if Egypt could have been precisely considered a British colony! The reason for Egypt gradually switching from French to English had nothing to do with colonialism or occupation, but because the United States had more cultural and political influence, which made English a wiser choice, even if British spelling is preferred in text books. And you see, I was trying to avoid political debates, since this is not the right place. --Mahmudmasri (talk) 09:24, 25 July 2019 (UTC) 

Franco-Arabic?

Franco and Franco-Arabic redirect here, but as far as I can see there's no explicit explanation of these names in the article. Addedentry (talk) 19:30, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

Capitalized letters, really!?

Would you please, user:A455bcd9, tell me which sources you relied on for the dollar sign, and transliterating plosives in dialects with the corresponding Latin alphabet, but with Arabic letters for interdentals? How is it possible in a very casual writing method that users carefully capitalize some letters to distinguish emphatic consonants? In the ends, remember that the characters demonstrated are the most common ones, anyway, not some obscure fads. Thanks. --Mahmudmasri (talk) 01:03, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

Hi Mahmudmasri,

So according to: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/17586801.2013.868334 (last source mentioned in the column in the table)

• p. 202: D is used by 16% of people in Israel/Palestine. It is not used elsewhere according to the paper but similarly 9' is used only in Jordan (according to the paper).
• p. 207: $ used by the majority of teens
• p. 201: "Pharyngeals and uvular fricatives (ħaa’ (/ħ/)/ ‘ayin (/ʕ/)/ khaa’ (/x/)/ ghain >غ<,>خ<,>ع<,>ح< ʁ/) corresponding to [...] The common forms used with other usages rather than proper nouns are <7>, <5>, <3> and <‘3 >; however, in Morocco <h>, <kh> and <gh> are also used."
• p. 208: table summary by country:
  • "8" most popular for ghain (but not in names) in Lebanon.
  • "t" most popular for ث in Jordan, Lebanon, Palestine, Israel, Egypt, Morocco
  • "h" most popular for ح in proper names in all countries
  • "d" among most popular forms for ذ in Jordan, Lebanon, Israel, Palestine, Egypt
  • "$" second most popular in Jordan for sheem

The other source: https://repositories.lib.utexas.edu/bitstream/handle/2152/72420/sullivan_natalie_ThesisFinalDraft.pdf?sequence=2&isAllowed=y

• p. 14 there's a table of the most common Arabizi forms:
  • d/D: ض
  • t/T: ط (Figure 9 mentions t as the most common)
  • d/z: ذ
  • 7/h: ح

I didn't check the last source but I think these two are reliable and we can use them. A455bcd9 (talk) 11:09, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

Multigraphs

The sentence “These chat alphabets differ from more formal and academic Arabic transliteration systems, in that they use numerals and multigraphs instead of diacritics […]” is quite imprecise considering that many “more formal and academic Arabic transliteration systems” also use multigraphs. 45.109.122.167 (talk) 21:30, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

About the use of the number 8 for /ɣ/

A footnote (^9) of the comparison table section says that "The number 8 is used for /ɣ/ only in Lebanon."

I know from personal experience that it is also used that way in Tunisia and maybe some other Arab countries. However, I don't have a reliable source so I can't just modify the article. I hope somebody fixes it and adds the relevant source. المبتدئ18 (talk) 13:18, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

Arabizi is a bit different, no?

• ء Hamza 2'
• ا Alif 2
• [ ي ya - 2 or y ]
• ح Haa 7 or H
• خ kha 5 or or 7' or x
• ك ka k
• ق Qaf 8 or Q
• ع A'in 3
• غ ghain 3'
• ط Taa 6 or T
• ظ Zaa 6' or Z
• ص Saad 9 or S
• ض dhaad 9' or D
• ث tha 4 or t' or th

Here's a link from somebody at Ohio State University. Table 1 is on page 6 (pdf page 13).

פשוט pashute ♫ (talk) 22:44, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

OK I noticed it was already there in the table, but hidden quite well. I corrected.

It is interesting to note that the different pronunciations of Qaf (as in the Northern and city pronunciation as 'Af with a 2 for Hamza, and the Beduin and Yemenite Southern pronunciation Gaf, along with the Kaf becoming ch or tsh marked with the dollar sign. פשוט pashute ♫ (talk) 23:32, 23 July 2023 (UTC)