Talk:Aqua String Band

Cite needed tags

Yes, that's a lot of "cite needed" tags. I've placed them because I will be attempting to source each of these "facts" in the next few days and yanking any I cannot source. Much of this article seems to be based on what someone heard from someone else. While that's a great way to find entertaining versions of local lore, it is not verifiable. - SummerPhD (talk) 04:17, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Never missed a parade?

I have now removed the tiny battleground claiming that Aqua has never missed a parade or missed three years. To state this either way, we will need a reliable source stating this. The only sources I've found are an "oral history"-style website (fails under WP:SPS) and a few sites that (based on wording) pick up the claim here. Thanks. - SummerPhD (talk) 16:11, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

Due to repeated additions of poorly sourced material to this section by an anonymous user who refused to discuss the issue, the article is now "semi" protected: Anonymous and new editors cannot edit. To include anything here (claims that they have never missed a parade, missed three years or marched in all but three then went back in a time machine to march in the three they missed), we will need a reliable source. What is a "reliable" source? Gee, thanks for asking. A complete description is available at WP:IRS. The short answer is a source that has a reputation for fact checking and accuracy. Most major newspapers (Inqy and the original Bulletin come to mind as places you might want to look) fit the bill. Area network affiliates would as well, except (as in the Fox 29 case for this issue) it is obvious they are quoting Wikipedia (which is a really lazy approach, IMO). I will remove this poorly sourced info again shortly. - SummerPhD (talk) 21:56, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

Please do your research. The "Anonymous" editor (moi) was using The String Band Record http://www.StringBandRecord.com as the proof needed. If you had bothered to read the "Record", which is the single most reliably historical document of String Band prize, theme and prize money history, incorporating twenty years of research from (pay attention here) SIX independent Philadelphia newspapers spanning from 1902 to the present day, you would've answered your own stipulations. Yes, yes, research was culled from the Philadelphia Evening Bulletin, Inquirer, Patriot, Public Ledger, Record, Journal over a period of (originally) five years from original microfilm stored in the basement of the Samuel Paley Library, Temple University, and the Free Library of Philadelphia. Additional materials were subscribed to from GeneaologyBank.com.

The person that did all the research, Brian Maher, was a fellow music education student along with me at Temple, and the former music director/music arranger for Woodland String Band. He is now a instrumental music teacher in New Jersey, and no longer performs in the string bands. I have alerted him to our little back-n-forth about Aqua's missing three years, and he basically states that his sole responsibility in maintaining the "Record" is to not state rumors, only facts. We didn't spent too much time talking about it, but he states the following in regards to the above:

1) Every independent newspaper does not have mention of Aqua for those three years (1927 - 1929). The newspapers would ALSO mention the various other neighborhood parades around the city, and the bands performing in them, and Aqua is not mentioned in those parades as well.

2) When Brian was doing his research, he and I would frequent the 3rd floor of the Mummers' Museum on Saturdays, where Jack Cohen was the archives curator. On the way in, Jack would pick up William "Curly" Connors and bring him with him to the museum. Curly Connors was, as you know, one of the greatest Music Directors of Ferko in its glory days. Curly stated to Brian that the reason Aqua didn't put a band on the street in 1927 was because a large contingent left to join the new Woodland String Band, which marched for the first time on New Years, 1927.

3) In addition to the above, Brian, when he was in Woodland, told me that he had the opportunity on many occasions to speak with Al Nigsch, who was a teenager, and a CHARTER MEMBER of Woodland when it was founded in February of 1926. He was still alive, and would attend a few Tuesday night rehearsals throughout the year, and also provided Brian with a number of original photographs of the band that are now featured on the Woodland website. Mr. Nigsch confirmed that there was a falling out within Aqua's ranks after the 1926 parade. He does not know what the reason was, but during the summertime, Woodland gained "about thirty" musicians from Aqua's ranks, and other bands may have gained some as well.

If you want to email Brian directly (he refuses to utilize Wikipedia for anything, so he is not privy to what we're doing here), his email is in the beginning of the String Band Record. He was the only one that has given up his time staring at microfilm to put this document together from ORIGINAL sources, and many string band members use it religiously for what it's worth... and it's worth a lot. We kidded him at all the late nights he spent in the basement of the library at the time. We don't kid him about it anymore.

I've got no dogfight here.... as long as that "Ron" fellow in Aqua stops posting lies about his band being "the oldest continually marching string band in the mummers (they aren't) and "never having missed a parade" (they have)., then I'll be passive about the subject. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.38.80.134 (talk) 03:59, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for finally discussing this.

Please assume good faith. I did do as much research as is needed here. While you and others may be satisfied that the String Band Record is "reliable". However, Wikipedia needs what we consider to be "reliable sources".

If any of the newspapers you mentioned (or other reliable sources) independently report that, contrary to other reports, Aqua missed various parades or is not the oldest, we can certainly include that, citing the actual article that reports exactly that. This is part of [[WP:V], one of our core policies. (If reliable sources report they are the oldest or have never missed a parade, we can (and should) include that.)

If reliable sources merely state that Aqua did not march in a particular year (with no claim that this is contrary to legend), that is trivial and, IMO, should not be included.

E-mail from anyone, whatever their qualifications may be, is not useful here. Anything they state is not verifiable: no one in the future would have access to that statement in the future.

Long story short: I do not see any indication that the website you've been using meets our criteria for reliable sources. If you disagree, I would suggest you take the issue to Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard. Similarly, I believe the "History" on Aqua's website was drawn from this article and therefore is also not a reliable source (anyone who disagrees should take that to the noticeboard as well, though it is also likely to fail under WP:SPS). Failing the addition of new sources here, I see no reason to include any mention of this question. - SummerPhD (talk) 04:52, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Well, three issues. One, NONE of the back-and-forth would have had to have happened if it wasn't for the one person that was making up the above two positions (oldest continually marching string band, and DID march in the 1927 through 1929 parades). This person, I believe, is in the Aqua string band, and his name, as I've mentioned before, is "Ron". I also see that you've had other interactions with him in regards to the origins of the "Aqua" name, which is outside of what the String Band Record deals with.

Two, the 'contrary to other reports" in your fifth sentence above, is what we're after. What ARE those "other reports?" I know that Brian does not have a vendetta agains any of the organizations he publishes the Record for... actually, he's very interested in making corrections when provided with proof (and he's credited those that have helped, in the beginning of the String Band Record). The problem (mystery, conundrum...) is that this "Ron" keeps making the two statements, but has no substance to back up his statements. Does he know something about Aqua and those three parades, that SIX Philadelphia newspapers covering every minute detail of the parade and all the string bands, didn't? Which brings me to...

Three, I wholeheartedly disagree about the String Band Record NOT being a reliable source. The fact that "Ron" was spewing out (continually, on every website he had access to) lies about the two topics was finally enough for Brian to introduce a short blurb in Section One of the Record (Facts and Fallacies) about how Aqua did indeed miss those three parades. This, however, was truthfully not necessary, as Section Three, the actual String Band Record listing itself, shows that Aqua was missing from the parade lineup for the years 1927-1929. The fact that all six Philadelphia newspapers covering both the pre-parade, and the post-parade coverage, do NOT list Aqua at attending needs to speak for itself. This is kind of the opposite of what you are stating would be a reliable source... they AREN'T listed as parading, they AREN'T listed as taking out a parade permit (yes, it was news and made the papers when a club stopped by City Hall for even this), so the burden of proof at this point is on ANY piece of evidence that states to the contrary.

Remember, the String Band Record is not hearsay, it is culled from decades and decades of original newspaper sources themselves. It is what it is. You can't go back and rewrite history, and the newspapers (in this case) have no reason to lie. Same thing happened with the "birther" movement with President Obama's birth certificate. They could say anything and everything they wanted about how he was born elsewhere, but none of them had an answer for how our President's birth was announced in two different 1961 Hawaiian newspapers. Can't change history.

In any case, you and I will just have to disagree in regards to how reliable the String Band Record is, but as I stated, as long as those two lies are kept out of this Wiki on the Aqua String Band, I will be satisfied. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.186.106.218 (talk) 13:31, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

One: Who did what to whom and when is moot. This page is for discussing improvements to the article.

Two: Unless there are reliable sources discussing whether or not the band never missed a parade, missed three parades, marched at least twice in each parade or was in their clubhouse playing cards every time there was a parade, we have nothing to add here either way. If reliable sources say the band is made up of clones of Mario Lanza and Joey Bishop THAT is exactly what this article should say.

Three: The String Band Record is not a "reliable source" as Wikipedia uses the term. Reliable sources are "third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." The Record, edited and primarily written by a former Mummer, is not "third-party". The "publisher" is a website established by that author/editor. The "reputation for fact-checking and accuracy" we would need is no where in evidence. ("Birther" claims face similar challenges on Wikipedia: Our articles discuss the claims only in the context and to the extend that reliable sources discuss them. If a former elected official wrote and edited a website about Obama (country of birth, religion, etc.), we will not cite it. If a reliable source discusses the website, we will (and do) report what that source said. Take a look at Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories and Barack Obama religion conspiracy theories. While the claims you and the other editor are making here are certainly very different than this mess, the solution is the same: Wikipedia reports what reliable sources report. Aqua's website makes one claim, the Record makes another. Neither one is a reliable source. IMO, we have nothing to say. - SummerPhD (talk) 16:22, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

...And you are indeed entitled to your OWN opinion in regards to what constitutes a reliable source, as am I. We disagree. The fact that the String Band Record is entirely made up from, and only from, "reliable sources" seems to not make the connect with you, however, you claim that the String Band Record needs to use "reliable sources". See how silly you sound? I mean, it's only Wikipedia... not a real historical website. I don't mean to take you away from your real job of trying to find out the "origins of Aqua's name", however, when you FREELY and OPENLY contradict yourself, by not comprehending how Wiki and "reliable sources" work, and then state that the single well-known reliable source document such as the String Band Record is not... a reliable source, you end up embarrassing yourself behind a nom de plume, it's actually quite funny.

Please do yourself a favor, and learn and COMPREHEND what constitutes a TRUE "reliable source", then maybe you can advance to a... better position... than a "copy-n-paste clerk for Wikipedia" Your parents must be SO proud.

Until then... you have been...

BLOCKED. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.186.106.218 (talk) 17:59, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

This is not "my" opinion of what makes a reliable source, this is the community consensus on Wikipedia. Sources that draw from reliable sources might or might not be reliable sources themselves. The policy is rather central to Wikipedia. Either you follow the policy, work to change the policy or (one way or another) you end up not editing Wikipedia. Sorry if you don't like it. - SummerPhD (talk) 00:38, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Origin of name

Again, I am unable to locate reliable sources for any of this. The band's official site merely used the text from this very article. (Obviously, we cannot use this article as a source for itself.) Other than that, the bit referring to Prohibition (but not the legend of the water toast) had been picked up by a Fox 29 blurb, but the wording made it clear it had been taken from this article or a site copying this article. Thanks. - SummerPhD (talk) 16:15, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

I found an apparently reliable source (Temple University Press) for part of this claim. I have added it, with an appropriate cite. There is still no source for the "water toast" legend. - SummerPhD (talk) 16:25, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Germany and numerous Fasching/Carnival parades and celebrations

For starters "throughout the country" here is a bit vague. I am unsure if the author intended the U.S. or Germany here.

More to the point, there is no reliable source given for this and I am unable to find one. Is it likely true? Sure. There are millions of things we could say about a band that's been around for over 90 years that are likely true. The way Wikipedia sorts the trivial from the meaningful is coverage in independent reliable sources. The captain probably ties his own shoes, but no reliable sources discuss that. The band marches in the annual Mummers Parade, which sources discuss. - SummerPhD (talk) 16:34, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Notable?

Frankly, there doesn't seem to be significant coverage in independent reliable sources for Aqua. Yes, we have reliable sources putting them is the Mummers Parade and a few local events. However, we need significant coverage. I don't want to delete this, but we need sources.

For examples of articles that have sources and survived deletion attempts, please see Greater Kensington (string band), Pennsport (string band) and Adelphia (fancies). Personally, I'd like to be able to establish articles for all of the clubs. Without sources, we cannot do that.

While it is clear that Mummers clubs maintain their own histories in one way or another, I don't see many of their websites adding pages with links to press coverage. That's a bit of a shame as potential donors/patrons obviously are looking for some indication that the band isn't just a bunch of guys walking down the street once a year. Wikipedia articles frequently top search engine results. A solid article here is in each club's best interest. Articles on clubs certainly support articles on other clubs: Once we have articles on, say, 3/4 of the clubs, it will be far easier to argue for articles on all of the clubs.

Adding material based on what someone told you is a waste of time. We need sources. - SummerPhD (talk) 16:34, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

Dubious

A new year, a new IP address (still from Optimum Online (Cablevision Systems), though) with the same claim from the same source. The same problem, as discussed. - SummerPhD (talk) 14:52, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Like it or not, when reliable sources are collected into a document and utilized to promote correctness within Wikis boundaries, then it must be accepted. The majority of Wiki users familiar with the subject matter accept the resource as a reliable source because, it contains over a century of informational bits and pieces from seventeen Philadelphia newspapers, going back to 1902. If you disagree with the reliability of a document firmly ensconced in historical newspaper articles, as well as utilized by the actual parade hosts on live television during the annual String Band Division spectacle, then we have nothing more to say. Being a watchdog over an article whose material you are clearly lacking knowledge of doesn't help the situation, either. The article will stay with the addition, and will be replaced if you remove it once again.— Preceding unsigned comment added by StringBandDivisionThesis (talk • contribs) 00:16, January 3, 2014‎

Please do not edit existing/responded to comments by "other" editors, as you did here. Additionally, when commenting on talk pages, please sign your comments by adding four tildas: ~~~~ at the end.

I did not say the newspapers are not reliable sources. However, the newspapers, so far as I have been able to determine, do not say that Aqua missed the indicated years and no others. The self-published site says that.

StringBandRecord.com is a self-published site. I see no indication whatsoever that it meets Wikipedia's definition of a "reliable source". Please explain. - SummerPhD (talk) 05:28, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

You are, once again, incorrectly stating that the source I am quoting, The Philadelphia Mummers' String Band Record, is a "self-published source". It is not. Wiki defines a "self-published source" as: " books, patents, newsletters, personal websites, open wikis, personal or group blogs, Internet forum postings, and tweets." The Philadelphia Mummers' String Band Record isn't based on any of those. If you have any questions as to the authenticity of "The Philadelphia Mummers' String Band Record", or where it's source material comes from, please feel free to read the opening paragraphs of said source material so you can have a better understanding. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by StringBandDivisionThesis (talk • contribs) 16:00, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

The information is compiled by one person. It it his personal website. I am not disputing the source material he used. I am disputing that he is a reliable source for claims he makes based on that material. Aqua disputes his claim: "The Band has never missed a New Year's Day Parade..."[1] To bring in outside editors to help resolve the issue, I have started a discussion at the Reliable Sources Noticeboard. While the issue is being discussed, the tag should remain in place. Thanks. - SummerPhD (talk) 16:14, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

Summer is correct, the web page falls under Wikipedia's categorization of "self published sources" - it does not have a recognized authoritative editorial oversight board or peer review equivalent that "reliable sources" like standard book publishers, newspapers or peer reviewed journals have. If you can show that the websites creator has previously published about the topic under conditions of editorial review and is a noted expert in the field, then their content on a website can be considered for use, but until then, it is not.-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:54, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

I have moved this section to address StringBand's concern (on his talk page). - SummerPhD (talk) 16:19, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

With the exception of User:StringBandDevisionThesis, the discussion at the noticeboard seems pretty clear. As SBD is currently blocked we'll have to wait for any further comment. - SummerPhD (talk) 21:22, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

No further discussion, just repeated reverts without comment or explanation. As this is clearly against consensus, the next revert will lead to a longer block. - SummerPhD (talk) 04:08, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Now in the middle of a three day block, a sock case from SBD and both IPs. After the sock blocks we'll probably have to edit protect the article. Still no additional discussion/sources. - SummerPhD (talk) 01:25, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Potential source

If anyone can get access to a hard copy of the book below, it may have some useful information.

• Welch, Charles E. (1991-08-01). Oh! dem golden slippers: the story of the Philadelphia Mummers. Book Street Press. ISBN 9780962892110. Retrieved 3 January 2014.
• [2] and it looks like there are sources to verify that it released a couple of recordings and won an early award at the parade. And several sources for the Prohibition related name. however not a lot of "significant" coverage, mostly just trivial passing mentions it looks like.-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:06, 3 January 2014 (UTC)