Talk:Apolo Ohno

GA Review

Good Article Review by Figureskatingfan

This review is transcluded from Talk:Apolo Anton Ohno/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review. Please add sources to this section and the last sentence in this section Done and done. oncamera(t) 02:31, 13 August 2009 (UTC) Start of review Hi, I'll be reviewing this article. The rules for GA reviews are stated at Good Article criteria. I haven't reviewed a great many good articles, but considering the backlog (and for selfish reasons, since I currently have a GAN), I thought I'd chip in. Different reviewers have their own style; I thought I'd go through the criteria and assess how this article satisfies them. I'm happy to review this article; I'm a big fan of Ohno. --Christine (talk) 17:30, 8 August 2009 (UTC) As I stated at GAN, I cannot pass this article for GA until the preliminary copyedit of the entire article is completed. Oncamera, if you go through the rest of the article, as you started to do with the first few sections, I will pass it. I will give you a week (until 8/31) to respond. If you're unable to do this, perhaps we should wait for another time to nominate it for GA. --Christine (talk) 04:25, 24 August 2009 (UTC) I will work on the article moreso later today and more tomorrow in my spare time. Thanks, oncamera(t) 22:45, 24 August 2009 (UTC) Well, I went through the other sections and did some copyedits to them. I don't think the later sections needed as much work as the early sections. I checked the references too, and they are working and are relevant to the statements cited using them. If there's more you would like me to check on, let me know. Thanks, oncamera(t) 23:48, 26 August 2009 (UTC) Criteria 1: Well-written The prose is clear and the spelling and grammar are correct. There are several problems in this area. For one, the style and tone aren't formal enough for an encyclopedic article. For example, these sentences, in the Early Life section: Despite the younger Ohno's athletic talent, he still was becoming increasingly more unruly, hanging out with older teenagers and causing trouble. Life so far from home wasn't very easy to a teenager, He missed his friends in Seattle and didn't really like Lake Placid, which is just a small town in NY state. After the first couple of months, he became less homesick and began to train harder. A year later, he won the national overall title when he was just 14. "Still was becoming" and "hanging out" are very colloquial. "Life so far away from home wasn't..." Contractions are a no-no in more formal writing. The sentence beginning with "He missed his friends..." has similar issues. I would suggest that you go to someone for a copyedit to take care of these problems, which are throughout the article. --Christine (talk) 18:00, 8 August 2009 (UTC) I went through a re-wrote/copyedited that section and the "Early career" sections. I'm slowly working my way down the article and adding more information as I come along it. oncamera(t) 02:31, 13 August 2009 (UTC) I have taken this as license to go ahead and do my own copyediting. I'll bring up questions as I have them. My first is from "Early career": "His father, concerned with Ohno's spare time, involved him in competitive swimming and in-line skating. I don't have access to Ohno's autobiography, but could you make this sentence a little clearer? Since it appears that Ohno's dad's job prevented him from supervising his son, was his concern about how his son filled his time when Ohno wasn't in school? Was it a "I don't want my kid on the streets, so I'm gonna get him involved with sports" kind of thing? I, as a reader, would really like to know that. --Christine (talk) 05:10, 13 August 2009 (UTC) Is there a reason Ohno's pre-1999 wins aren't listed in the medals table? --Christine (talk) 06:08, 13 August 2009 (UTC) Next question for this section: is it convention to state "100 m", instead of "100 meter"? I mean, would it be better to spell out "meter" instead of abbreviating it? Also notice that I've deleted the final sentence in this section, since you're gonna go into detail about Ohno's qualification for the 2002 Olympic team. --Christine (talk) 06:15, 13 August 2009 (UTC) Thank you for copyediting! To answer your question about the pre-1999 wins, the only thing Ohno won before 1999, was the 1997 Nationals, and since the Nationals aren't included in the medals table, there wouldn't be anything listed prior to his 1999 Junior medals and his silver at the 1999 Worlds. Well, I must have decided at some point early on in editing his article, that after reading WP:STYLE Unit Names and Symbols to use m instead of meter as along as I included the nonbreak in it i.e. 100 m. Since there are multiple uses of meter throughout the article, I didn't know if it would be redundant/distracting to the reader to constantly see the word. So, I'm not sure if m or meter would be better since it is used multiple times, but I have used the nonbreak at least. I went and added more details into the Early Life section about his father and all, but I don't know if I answered your concerned; I don't want to make it seem like Ohno was going to join a gang when it was his protective father who didn't want Ohno to "stray" as a young adult or become a Latchkey kid, if that makes sense. oncamera(t) 00:48, 14 August 2009 (UTC) Thanks for explaining the abbreviation use; one of things I love about WP is how much stuff there is to learn! That's why it's a good idea to work on a variety of types of articles, so that the next time this kind of thing comes up, I'll know that this is the best convention. I liked your explanation of Ohno's father's proactive stance in raising what I suspect was a difficult kid to deal with. (All the really talented ones are, doncha know.) At any rate, it's clearer now; good job! --Christine (talk) 04:51, 14 August 2009 (UTC) It complies with the manual of style guidelines for: lead sections The lead should be expanded. The article's long (41 kilobytes), so according to the criteria, it should be 3-4 paragraphs. --Christine (talk) 17:48, 8 August 2009 (UTC) layout I have no problems with the layout; well done. --Christine (talk) 18:01, 8 August 2009 (UTC) jargon The issues here are similar to the above discussion. You use a great deal of slang here; another example is "...his father drove him to meets..." You have to assume that there are those out there unfamiliar with sport terms. IOW, what's a "meet"? --Christine (talk) 18:08, 8 August 2009 (UTC) words to avoid Again, similar issue. (Forgive the repetition.) I think that if you took care of the informal tone through a copyedit, this issue would be resolved. For example, Eventually he made it to Lake Placid, as Ohno's father accompanied his reluctant son to the airport and ensured his departure. It's the "reluctant son" phrase I have issues with. It constitutes a label, which doesn't follow the MOS. --Christine (talk) 18:14, 8 August 2009 (UTC) fiction N/A here. list incorporation I understand the necessity of embedded lists in sports bios. I'm not familiar enough with similar articles, though, to access the effectiveness of the two lists here, Ohno's medal records and his DWTS stats. Someone else will have to access the lists, perhaps when and/or if you ever bring this article to FAC. --Christine (talk) 18:43, 8 August 2009 (UTC) Here, I made the opening longer by including records and awards he has won who was nominated for. I took a peek at Evan Lysacek's article as a base because there really isn't another skater's page to use. I guess it's hard for me to really judge all the words I used when I re-wrote the sections prior to the Salt Lake controversies, but I kept words to avoid and jargon in mind as I did so. Perhaps another editor can comb through and make adjustments. oncamera(t) 02:31, 13 August 2009 (UTC) Factually accurate and verifiable (a) it provides references to all sources of information in the section(s) dedicated to the attribution of these sources according to the guide to layout; (b) it provides in-line citations from reliable sources for direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons; and (c) it contains no original research. I'll access this section generally. I've looked at the first two sources, the ones from the ISU, and they're very difficult to navigate to the information you're citing. I know from looking up figure skating results that the ISU site really sucks. I would suggest making sure all their links are correct and actually brings you to the right information. Ref 3 is broken. Ref #4 isn't complete; the author is the AP. Ref 5: Is the Kidzworld site reliable? I'm not so sure. Ok, you get my point, I'm sure. The references in this article has loads of problems. You need to go through each one methodically and make sure they support your facts, that they're reliable, and that they're completely cited. I reviewed the sources in the "Games" section, especially the potentially contentious information about the Korean reaction to Ohno's win. I think that section is handled well, taking the discussion on the talk page into account. (BTW, ref 21 is broken.) As the other reviewers states, the DWTS section has no sources. I know that the reporting of the results on the DTWS article aren't necessarily sourced, and that they depend upon viewer reports, but I'm wondering if a discussion about the kind of dances and his scores is appropriate for this kind of article, especially with the amount of detail it goes into. This is definately something to discuss and consider. --Christine (talk) 20:06, 8 August 2009 (UTC) I deleted much of the details in DWTS and sourced the remaining information. I'm not sure what to do about the table that has his scores in it, nor do I know where I can find an "official" source for the scores. I'm working my way through the references and updating or replacing ones that are broken or no longer work. My thing there is that because they're host online, the sites have a tendency to change/modify their sitemaps and so the links go broken with time. Especially with sites like usspeedskating.org, which seems to be using flash now and it makes it impossible for me to link to the news articles. So, I have to go and look for a source elsewhere... which leads to another issue that sometimes the reference link will be dead and the same story will be printed in a news archive that costs money to browse, so it makes it tough to look back at old articles in search of one that works/is free. I'm also changing the sources to more reliable ones and replacing dead ones. oncamera(t) 02:31, 13 August 2009 (UTC) I liked what you did to the DWTS section. Now that I look at it, and after thinking about it some, I think that you should keep the table. Not that I'm an expert or anything, but isn't it true that this kind of "OR" goes into sports stats listed in WP? I would get input from an editor who works on these kinds of articles to make sure, though. It's completely appropriate to use a television program as a source, and that's basically what you're doing here. (Perhaps you should cite the TV episode, or the DVD, if there's one of Ohno's season.) Regarding the dead link issue: I refer you here, which recommends using WebCite (http://www.webcitation.org). If you're stuck, my pal and wikimentor, User:Scartol could probably help you, since he's helpful in all things. --Christine (talk) 04:52, 13 August 2009 (UTC) I'll try to see if there's a nice source for the scores, but I was looking around at other sport figures' pages and it seems this sort of OR is "acceptable" for Sports a la Rafael Nadal career statistics. There's no DVD of the season, either; even though this seems tedious, I could possibly source each episode with a separate news-article... Thank you for the information on the dead link issue; for the most part, I've been able to find different versions or the same version somewhere else on google achive... oncamera(t) 01:49, 14 August 2009 (UTC) Yah, I think that this is something you may have to do. If you brought this article to FAC (and I think the potential's there), you may be asked to do it. But then again, I dunno; sometimes the demands made over there can seem arbitrary. I'm not going to demand that you do it for GA, though, since I think this way is adequate. You may want to get some additional input. Of course, we could be setting precedent for the other DWTS winners. --Christine (talk) 04:56, 14 August 2009 (UTC) Oh FAC~ yes, I can see more I add to the article when/if it gets to that stage and getting references for the scores would be beneficial if anything to the DWTS articles. In the upcoming days I'll start looking for the references! oncamera(t) 02:46, 15 August 2009 (UTC) Broad in its coverage: (a) it addresses the main aspects of the topic; and (b) it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style). This article, for the most part, satisfies this criteria. My only issues are the DWTS section, which may go into too much unnecessary detail, and "Personal Life" and "Selected events" sections. I personally have problems with naming current BFFs and girlfriends in an encyclopedic article (and I think that the BLP policy back me up on that). I also think that the one line about Ohno's award could be placed in another section, like in "Post-Olympic hiatus and return". --Christine (talk) 21:10, 8 August 2009 (UTC) I merged the "Selected events" section into the "Post-Olympic hiatus and return" section and removed the Personal life section altogether because I also agree with your assessment. The DWTS section has been vastly reduced and the remaining information has been sourced. oncamera(t) 02:31, 13 August 2009 (UTC) Good job, nicely done. --Christine (talk) 04:53, 13 August 2009 (UTC) Neutral: It represents viewpoints fairly and without bias. I'm very impressed with how well the Korean controversy is handled in this article, especially after reading the talk page. A potentially contentious subject has been handled very well, IMO. I agree with the consensus that a discussion about Japanese/Korean/US relations in this article is unnecessary. Good job! --Christine (talk) 21:14, 8 August 2009 (UTC) Stable: It does not change significantly from day-to-day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute. I find this article relatively stable. The Korean and DWTS disputes have been resolved. The vandalism here isn't unusual, and it seems to be reverted quickly. --Christine (talk) 21:47, 8 August 2009 (UTC) Illustrated, if possible, by images: (a) Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid fair use rationales are provided for non-free content; (b) Images are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions. To be honest, analyzing images aren't my strong suit. I'd suggest going to Awadewit for assistance. They seem to me, though, few in number. I think that increasing the amount of images is something to address here. --Christine (talk) 22:04, 8 August 2009 (UTC) I can look for more images that are owned by the owner of OhnoZone.net to address this concern, but that will probably take a while to do (my internet connection is rather slow and I wouldn't want to waste so much time letting images load). oncamera(t) 02:31, 13 August 2009 (UTC) Thanks for the opportunity of reviewing this article. I learned a great deal about a very interesting individual. It's important to keep in the information about Ohno's "past", and how his dad and his sport helped him get past his "teenage rebellion". --Christine (talk) 22:04, 8 August 2009 (UTC) I sent an e-mail to Oncamera about this as she hasn't edited in a while, so it might need to stay on hold for some time. I'll fix what I can in a couple days. Wizardman 15:14, 11 August 2009 (UTC) Thanks for sending the email, Wizardman~ I'll try working on the issues in the upcoming days too. I agree with the assessment and it'll probably take a few days to look into all of the issues. Thanks again, oncamera(t) 19:56, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Apolo starting at auburn skate connetion

Apolo started at the auburn skating rink and moved to team Extream soon later.He won third at nationals one year on team Extream. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 164.116.176.216 (talk) 22:14, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Uh, do you have a reliable source for this info? Thanks, oncamera^(t) 23:41, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Name?

Did Apolo Ohno's father really name him after the words "Ap" and "Lo" and not just after the Greek God, Apollo? This seems hard to believe. 128.36.163.129 (talk) 15:46, 12 February 2010 (UTC)CPL

Yeah, that's what a lot of sources say. Otherwise, I think it would be spelled the same way as Apollo. oncamera^(t) 00:41, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

This seems fanciful to say the least. I did some Greek at school 40+ years ago and I don't recognize thse words. I tried απ and λω in an online Greek dictionary in both Ancient and Modern Greek and got nothing except απ = from. I think Dad was pulling someone's leg. Cross Reference (talk) 04:37, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

40+ years ago? Ah, hmm, it's supposed to be "Apo" instead of just "Ap" as in ἀπό or ἀπο-, which is "away from". And I think "Lo" is λώ, as in lo and behold. Geez not everyone makes things up! Haha, oncamera^(t) 05:29, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Cross-Tracking

The link for cross-tracking points to the Rules section of Short_track_speed_skating is dead because there is no Rules section on that page; in fact there is no explanation of the term on that page. The term needs definition and explanation here, or a new link. Thanks. Tweet7 (talk) 02:23, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Oh, I never noticed it went missing. Anyway, I found the Rules section and added them back to Short track speed skating. Thanks for pointing that out! Cross-tracking (DQX): Deliberately cutting in front of a competitor who is attempting to pass. oncamera^(t) 04:44, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Typo?

"With three laps remaining and currently in second position, Ohno attempted make to pass on the leader Kim, who then drifted to the inside and as a result, Ohno raised his arms to signal he was blocked. " Enigma^msg 06:28, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Fixed! oncamera^(t) 00:21, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Grammar error: "Capitalizing on Ohno's fame, Alaska Airlines were his". Should be "was".

Controversy regarding 1500m 2010 race

I am removing this paragraph that was added:

In an interview after the race, Ohno said he was initially hoping, that all three South Koreans would be disqualified. This comment provoked many Koreans including the winning Lee Jung-su, who said: "Ohno didn’t deserve to stand on the same medal podium."12

Because, the unsigned Korean Times article does not even quote Ohno, and actually misrepresents his post-race comments. What Ohno said on the televised interview was, "I was expecting more disqualifications from the race. It was a crazy first race but it turned out well".3 So, the Korean Times article is not reliable. Also, the Korean Times attributes the quote to Yonhap News, which doesn't even have the quote either. Fails reliable source; further reading on this intentional misrepresenting of his post-race comments can be found here. oncamera^(t) 00:33, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

You have repeatedly removed new content in this article. Please read the content and the references before blindly deleting it. The new content that I have put in is not the same as the previous content. Do you understand?--Sir Edgar (talk) 03:28, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

The Reuters only sources his quote. The rest is sourced from an unreliable source, the Korea Times article. Also, the race should be written in detailed at the main article for it (Short track speed skating at the 2010 Winter Olympics – Men's 1500 metres). I want this article to stay Good Article quality, so faulty sources should be best avoided. oncamera^(t) 03:32, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

As I have requested to you before, please state why you believe the Reuters article "only sources his quote". Also explain why The Korea Times, a major publication, is an unreliable source. What do you base your judgment on?-- Sir Edgar

Please sign your comments; I will not do that for you. The Reuters article says nothing about this Ohno's comments after the 1500 m final caused a stir in the South Korean media which called him an "ungentlemanly sportsman" and criticized what they called his excessive pushing and touching of his competitors, including eventual winner Lee, during the race and is only the source for his quote. The Korean Times article is discussed in the first paragraph of this discussion. There's no reason for that much details on Ohno's page, since he was NOT disqualified and did not cause the crash of the two Korean skaters. Lee Ho-Suk was disqualified for causing that crash. oncamera^(t) 03:46, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Please read carefully. Nobody said the Reuters article said anything about Ohno being an "ungentlemanly sportsman" and about his excessive pushing. The Korea Times article says that. It is also stated in this Chosun Times article (the exact same quotes, but in Korean): http://news.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2010/02/14/2010021400182.html

I hope you don't discriminate against these articles because they are Korean. As you may know, Wikipedia allows non-English sources for English language articles. If you can't read the Korean language, then you can use a translator like Babelfish: http://babelfish.yahoo.com/

Are you saying that Lee didn't make those comments? Can you prove that? Lee specifically said that Ohno did not deserve to stand on the podium and that Ohno was using his arms too aggressively. Have you seen the footage? It's appalling, in my opinion, and definitely not fairplay. This is especially true in consideration of Ohno's previous complaints about other skaters' actions during races.--Sir Edgar (talk) 03:57, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

By the way, I want to also comment that I am relying on major news media sources and you are referring to a blog...--Sir Edgar (talk) 04:07, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

I watched the race when it happened, and Ohno is the one with the right to complain. He was bumped by one of the Koreans, knocking him off his stride and costing him a chance at gold. What the Koreans did during that race was not fairplay. Enigma^msg 05:23, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

I didn't use the blog to source anything on the article. I know what a reliable source is.

As I said, the Reuters article only sources his quote so why do you ask me to explain that? And to be honest, it would be best to stay neutral and not include biased news articles as sources. What the Koreans or Ohno said really isn't important AND I don't want to create a POV here. All this information does is make it seem like Korea hates Ohno no matter what happens and I don't want that either. It can be said the Korean skaters were rough too, as I have seen the race replayed. This is Short Track and that's how the races usually are. Anyway, it's giving undue weight to their opinions to write about this. Perhaps in Anti-American sentiment in Korea this can be written about, but not here. I hope you re-think about what this sort of information is pushing and reconsider how the information is presented. Or, as I suggested, include this information over at Short track speed skating at the 2010 Winter Olympics – Men's 1500 metres. oncamera^(t) 04:09, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

You keep on deleting content without justification. This is not your article. It is free for anyone to edit. I have provided reliable sources. In fact, I have found the same quotes in an NBC article here:

http://www.nbcolympics.com/news-features/news/newsid=423575.html

What you are doing is censorship. I merely want to provide a balanced view of Ohno that is not seen in the U.S. media. As an American living in Seoul who also speaks fluent Korean, I can tell you that Korea does not hate Ohno "no matter what happens". It's Ohno's actions that go completely unnoticed by the referees and U.S. media that bothers them. Look at the footage. Ohno keeps pushing and leaning on Lee and other skaters. The content that I have provided is not pushing anything. Just the facts: What Ohno said after the race and what Lee said after the race.--Sir Edgar (talk) 04:30, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Then we'll leave it with just the facts, no opinions. How about something like this? Ohno's comments after the 1500 m final caused a controversy in the South Korean media.*NBC source* Ohno said, "At the end of the race, I was hoping for another disqualification kind of like what happened in Salt Lake City".*Reuters Source* Gold medalist Lee Jung-Su stated Ohno "did not deserve to stand on the podium" for his rough play during the semifinals and finals.*NBC source*

Also, I like the NBC source more than the other Korean one (it's English; you can use both if you want though), I'd be happy with it, and using the direct quotes from it too. But, I don't think this needs to be in its own header because there are still more races to be raced! Maybe after the Olympics we can really see how this is all played out. Tell me what you think so we can work this out to be the least POV. oncamera^(t) 04:42, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for your post. I hope by seeing other media sources, you can perhaps see another perspective. You and I live in different parts of the world. It's good to share information for a more balanced perspective. Anyhow, I think this issue deserves its own header because Ohno has had so much controversy throughout his career. Is he a good skater? Absolutely. But I'm not sure he would have had as much success if he relied on his skating skill alone. I am going to leave both Ohno's and Lee's comments intact. The article will constantly change throughout the competition and after. Whether we are here or not. That's Wikipedia.--Sir Edgar (talk) 04:55, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

By the way, the 1500m race issue is not about anti-Americanism. It's about what Ohno said and what Lee said after the race.--Sir Edgar (talk) 04:57, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

But, you don't understand what I mean by the header issue; when he races in the other races, that section then be chronologically out of order because having headers for every race during the 2010 Olympics would be unnecessary and make the Table of Contents too long and annoying. Also, please can you put the exact quotes in for this portion? Gold medalist Lee Jung-Su accused Ohno of being unqualified to stand on the awards podium for his rough play that was reportedly often done in a subtle manner and therefore went unnoticed in the eyes of the referees and the U.S. media. I would like readers to see how he exactly said it and not a paraphrase by news articles. And if you are translating his quotes from Korean you'll have to include the original Korean in a footnote so readers can see what was said in Korean. Please make those edits and I don't think we need to add our opinions of skaters here because this is not a forum for that sort of discussion, oncamera^(t) 05:06, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Hopefully, there will only be one controversy for Ohno during these Games. The point is there was controversy again. Anyhow, the subsection's first sentence states that this applies to the 1500m race. The order does not matter, in my opinion. As for Lee's quote, there is no English version that I know of because it was not reported in the U.S. media. That's the whole point of what I am saying. It just wasn't reported. That's why the article says "went unnoticed in... the U.S. media." Understood about your comment that we do not need to talk about our opinion of skaters..."--Sir Edgar (talk) 05:12, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

You're using the Korean source for one quote; he doesn't say this anywhere in Korean news articles? I don't want to rely on Google's translator, so it's best to use your knowledge of Korean to find the actual source for those messages. Otherwise, Lee Jung-Su might be intentionally misrepresented in English sources, you know? It can go both ways. Still, you'll need the footnote of the original Korean quotes added, kinda like what was done here. oncamera^(t) 05:19, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

I went ahead and combined the controversy back into the paragraph for the 1500m race because even the other 2002 controversy doesn't have its own header. This article should remain consistent and chronological organized to provide the reader with easy reading. I also clarified why the SK mediia was upset and used the quotes from the NBC source to explain further why Lee Jung-su was angry. Also formatted the Original Text footnote, so thank you for providing that. I feel this new version best shows what happened n a neuutral and fair manner, using the sources as best possible. oncamera^(t) 14:44, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Your logic regarding header consistency is reasonable. I do not disagree with this version for now.--Sir Edgar (talk) 00:20, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

This para needs to be corrected...

After a disqualification in the 500 m race,[24] he was leading the skaters in the 1000 m race; during a turn around the final corner, Ahn Hyun Soo fell while attempting to pass Ohno and Li Jiajun on the inside, causing Ohno, Li, and Mathieu Turcotte to crash into the barriers.

This para needs to be corrected. Watch the slow motion. Here is how it goes. As the skater approach the final turn, Li Jiajun tries to pass Ohno on the outside. Ohno tries to block Li out with an elevated arm. Ahn sees the opportunity to pass inside while Ohno is preoccupied with Li. Li spirals off course but Ohno is also unbalanced as him and Ahn make the final turn. Ohno is hopelessly trying to stay balanced and not deviate from the inside lane where Ahn is almost certain to pass him. Ohno is going down already and while doing so, his wrist clips Ahn's ankle/shin Ahn falls and takes Turcotte behind him.

The biggest winner here is Bradbury obviously. 2nd biggest winner is Ohno. It seemed like Ohno was hard done by as it looked like Ahn had taken the whole field out. Ohno never ever complained about Ahn. He knew he was the cause of it all and knowing Ohno's antics he would have cried foul if he felt 0.1% hard done by. Ohno should have been DQ'd too. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jinu4ever (talk • contribs) 09:03, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

See WP:Original Research. Anyway, the sentence is neutral and factual as it is. No need to change it. oncamera^(t) 00:40, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

how can you say the sentence is neutral? what's black is black and what's white is white. Ahn doesn't cause Li to fall. Li slings off the track as they go into the turn. Ohno's left arm causes Ahn to fall. my source is purely from the analysis of video clips. I'm sure you'll have access to this. Bradbury saying "heading into the final turn, i see the Chinese guy fall. I set up my final turn and in the corner of my eyes i see the other three tuggle...." (this is a primary source by the way) [[1]] If you can't get a simple observation right i don't know hom much merit is in your article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jinu4ever (talk • contribs) 23:06, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Uh, this is not true at all. Ahn's pass directly cause the collision. I don't know what video you are watching but what you're saying is incorrect. I will grant you this: Li's fall is questionable but Ahn 100% caused Turcotte and Ohno to fall. Even if his arm caused Ahn to fall, it's still Ahn's fault as he still tried to pass. Ohno was already leaning out of the turn so if he would've "moved his arm to let Ahn pass", he would've fallen; Ohno clearly had the right of way...because he was already in front of Ahn for the entire last lap!--70.246.130.36 (talk) 04:49, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Ok. Let's take back all subjective arguments from both sides as you seem to a "let's talk based on facts" type of person, ie Ohno's fault or Ahn's fault - we can't conclude as we don't have conclusive evidence. However, let's go back to the fact books. Ahn wasn't disqualified from the race (was placed 4th with a valid time). Li was and hence, based on this, Li was at fault and he caused the pile up. So your argument "Ahn 100% caused Turcotte and Ohno to fall" is completely and utterly false. I don't know where you got that from. So i insist that the sentence be corrected simply to.. After a disqualification in the 500 m race,[24] he was leading the skaters in the 1000 m race; during a turn around the final corner, Li fell while attempting to pass Ohno on the outside, causing Ohno, Ahn, and Mathieu Turcotte to crash into the barriers. Hope that does it...and since you seem to be updating this article as the events in Vancouver unfold why not add another sentence somewhere saying "Ohno is not good enough to beat the Koreans for a gold medal" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.242.169.121 (talk) 07:17, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

hair piece

what is the name of the hairpiece on ohnos chin? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.82.232.136 (talk) 06:18, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

It is called a soul patch. Women do not like it (see an article called 10 things to something ruin a date and make women run away - title name not exact). Suomi Finland 2009 (talk) 16:36, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Soul patch. Some women do not like it, but I don't see how that's worthy of mention. Enigma^msg 09:08, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Intro

The two intro paragraphs need to be updated to the below...

Apolo Anton Ohno (pronounced /əˈpɒloʊ ˈæntɒn ˈoʊnoʊ/; born May 22, 1982) is an American short track speed skating competitor and a seven-time medalist (two gold, two silver, three bronze) in the Winter Olympics.

Ohno has won seven Olympic medals over his career and is one of only four Americans who have won three medals in a single Winter Olympic games.[3] He surpassed Bonnie Blair for most career medals at the Winter Games by an American in the 2010 Vancouver Olympics.[4] He has been the reigning United States’ champion since 2001 and has won the men's national title a total of 12 times.[4] In December 1999, he became the youngest skater to win a World Cup event title, and became the first American to win a World Cup overall title in 2001.[4][5] In 2008, Ohno won his first overall World Championship title. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hcurtis (talk • contribs) 04:24, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

I updated it but without the Bonnie Blair mentioning. Doesn't he stand alone now? oncamera^(t) 04:28, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Incorrect sourcing.

The comment Lee Jung-su made is alleged. If it's going to be included it needs to be the direct quote from said Korean media outlet. Since it isn't, it's just heresay.--70.246.130.36 (talk) 04:38, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

I understand what you're saying. Deleting his comments make the "controversy" less worthy of even being mentioned (I would love to delete the whole thing). Everyone seems to get everyone's words wrong. Ohno said at the medal ceremony that Lee congratulated him, so I can see how it's confusing to know if Lee actually said these things. oncamera^(t) 04:53, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Oncamera; the "controversy" should be deleted. Its notability is debatable, and I suspect that when the article goes up for FAC again, its reviewers will recommend that it be removed. Evan Lysacek's "controversy" isn't even on his BLP (another GA, although this article is much better), and it has more bearing on their sport than this one. (To be fair, though, Evgeny Pleshenko's BLP mentions it, but the source it uses is more reliable than the sources about this controversy.) My two cents, folks. --Christine (talk) 15:32, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

2002 World Cup goal celebration

The following sentence needs editing: When the South Korean team scored a goal against the U.S. team, many spectators made a move imitating the (some felt to be exaggerated) move Ohno had made during the speed skating event to indicate the other athlete had drifted into his lane. It was not the spectators but rather the Korean players on the field who celebrated after scoring their equalizer against the US by mocking Ohno. Watch the match review on Youtube starting from 3:40 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDd-UBL4Njo The player imitating Kim is Ahn Jung Hwan and Ohno Lee Chun Soo. The two are very famous footballers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stjdot (talk • contribs) 01:59, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

I changed it to: When the South Korean team scored a goal against the U.S. team, Korean players Ahn Jung-Hwan and Lee Chun-Soo made an exaggerated move imitating the move Ohno had made during the speed skating event to indicate the other athlete had drifted into his lane. I hope that clarifies it! oncamera^(t) 02:05, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Cause of pile-up in 2002 Olympics 1000m race?

The current text states:

Ahn Hyun Soo fell while attempting to pass Ohno and Li Jiajun on the inside, causing Ohno, Li, and Mathieu Turcotte to crash into the barriers.

The basis of this is apparently this single line from the AP report. [2]

Ahn went down and took out Ohno and Turcotte.

The same article was then reprinted by CNNSi, NYTimes, etc. The AP article and the current Wikipedia text are putting the blame for the pile-up squarely on Ahn. However, other media sources give other, conflicting stories.

The Seattle Times, February 18, 2006 says [3]:

China's Li Jiajun caught his skate on Ohno's while trying to pass and spun out. That sent Ohno sliding into Ahn, and both went down, wiping out Mathieu Turcotte of Canada.

St. Petersburg Times, February 17, 2002 says [4]:

Ohno seemed to be skating well when China's Jiajun Li skated in close from the right. Ohno's right arm shot out, knocking Li off stride. Li fell forward then into the back of Ohno's legs. The two stumbled, and Korea's Ahn Hyun-soo, who had skated into the infield, plowed into them about 15 yards from the finish. The crash was so significant that Australia's Steven Bradbury, skating far behind in fifth place, won the gold by staying upright.

Since the media sources cannot agree on or are unclear about how exactly the crash occurred, I think the text should be changed to a completely neutral description. How about something like...

Ohno, Ahn, Li, and Turcotte all fell in a series of crashes, and Australia's Steven Bradbury won the gold.

Boomer69j (talk) 05:13, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Completely Agree, although i believe Seattle Times story. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.242.169.121 (talk) 11:03, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Here are a few more sources.

AP via Seattle Post-Intelligencer, Feb 18, 2006 [5]. Note that the first article I mentioned above, which says Ahn caused the crash, is also an AP article. Hence, we now have two articles from the same press agency contradicting each other.

Back then, Li caught his skate on Ohno's while trying to pass and spun out. That sent Ohno sliding into Ahn, and both went down, wiping out Mathieu Turcotte of Canada.

Another AP article, by Beth Harris, published in Concord Monitor, Feb 11, 2006 [6], Deseret News, Feb 12, 2006 [7]

China's Li Jiajun caught his skate on Ohno's while trying to pass and spun out. That sent Ohno sliding into Ahn, and both went down, wiping out Mathieu Turcotte of Canada.

HeraldNet, Dec 27, 2009 [8]:

China’s Li Jijuan, trying to pass Ohno on the outside, grabbed the American’s arm for a boost. But the two also tangled skates and went down. Li skittered into the boards. Ohno went flying in the other direction, where he undercut Korea’s Anh Hyun-soo, who was making his move on the inside. The two of them then wiped out Canada’s Mathieu Turcotte, the last man standing in the pack.

Sportales, Jan 1, 2010 sportales.com/sports/more-unforgettable-winter-olympic-stories/

Ohno was leading the pack in the 1,000 meter race with just about 20 meters from the finish line, when Li tried to overtake him when the two collided. Ohno then brought down Ahn and Turcotte as he sprawled across the ice, causing a massive wipeout.

Boomer69j (talk)

Thanks for the thorough research. To comply with WP:Neutral point of view, I have changed the text like you mentioned, to

during a turn around the final corner, Ohno, Ahn Hyun Soo, Li Jiajun, and Mathieu Turcotte all fell in a series of collisions.

Wikiwooj (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 17:54, 22 February 2010 (UTC).

Looks good, thanks for adding sources too. oncamera^(t) 00:08, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Length

How can an entry for a sportsman in a marginal discipline like speed skating be this long? There's barely enough justification for a stub, let alone this epic tale of utter irrelevance. Ninety (90) footnotes. This is insane.

For example: 'In Salt Lake City, Utah, Ohno emerged as a popular athlete among American fans for reportedly charming them with his cheerful attitude and laid-back style.[23]' How can that possibly be of any interest? Wikipedia urgently needs a word limit, like a comment box, where only so many characters are available and entries automatically cut off when the limit is reached.Sartoresartus (talk) 02:01, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Why did you even bother to come to his page or read the article if you don't want to know anything about him? Interesting, because if you read his article, you should have realized the relevance. Cheers, oncamera^(t) 02:36, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

I also realized the limits of its relevance.Sartoresartus (talk) 04:10, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Disqualified after "impeding" Tremblay?

For the 500m final for the 2010 winter olympics, it currently says:
However, he was disqualified after impeding Francois-Louis Tremblay of Canada around the final turn.

Is that really the most objective way to cover this? The article used for the reference refers to him actually causing Tremblay to fall. This little sports illustrated article does the same. They actually phrased it:
On the final lap, he tried to cut inside Canada's Francois-Louis Tremblay for a clean pass. Instead, he made contact with Tremblay, taking him out of the race.

Wouldn't it make more sense to cover it as the references do? Or, at the very least, to acknowledge that he was faulted for causing a fall, rather than claiming that he 'impeded' another skater? (I've yet to hear any proper reference refer to it as 'impeding')
It also seems like it would be better to include his comments on the decision, including, "You know, it's the head Canadian referee out there and there were two Canadians in the race.". It just seems that, if him crossing the line second is worth mentioning, and his disqualification is worth mentioning, then so are his comments on the matter? 72.88.100.169 (talk) 03:35, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

His comments were said in the heat of the moment and wouldn't really add much to the paragraph. Impeding is "Impeding (DQI): Pushing, blocking, or otherwise causing an impediment for another skater" and that's what he was disqualified for; pushing the other skater. I will link that word impeding to the rules section of Short Track Speed Skating. oncamera^(t) 03:52, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Oh, and I was going to say that describing the race with a little more detail might be useful just without that quote as it might be POV-pushing. Mentioning how he started from the third lane position, trailed in fourth for most of the race, and how he impeded in more details? The article is un-protected now, so if anyone feels like it, go ahead. oncamera^(t) 04:01, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Medal count

Currently the article says "He is the most decorated American Winter Olympic athlete of all time". Is that true? Nobody from Canada or any of the other subcontinents of america with more medals? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.225.84.107 (talk) 05:54, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Yes, this is true. He has won eight thus far, more than any other Winter Olympian. --Christine (talk) 06:11, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure why this argument over who is really defined under the term "American" randomly shows up on articles (I've seen this on Andy Roddick too). Generally speaking, it's someone from the United States. Of course it could be used for anyone from the two continents, but that's rarely the usage. Common usage prevails. Take this discussion over to here or someplace more relevant. oncamera^(t) 00:20, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

NYC Marathon

Hey, do we want to mention anywhere in here that he ran the 2011 NYC Marathon? I have a source: that Purplebackpack89≈≈≈≈ 16:48, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

Text is invisible

When I view this article in the article view, only the infobox to the right appears. None of the text or references show up, as though they've been deleted. When I view the article on Mozilla Firefox, everything appears just fine. However, in Internet Explorer 8, it doesn't. I can view the text of the article by clicking the Edit button, but when I switch to the regular view it disappears. I just tried deleting one letter, then adding it, and saving to see if it would change things, but no. All that shows up is the infobox with his picture, and at the top of the article is the notice about the last edit date and the text being available under cc-sa, which normally is found at the bottom of the web page. I've tried switching out of compatibility view in Internet Explorer 8, but it switches back automatically after a second. I don't know what the problem is. In addition, when I visit other articles in Internet Explorer, it doesn't switch to compatibility view, so I think it must be something about Apolo Ohno's article.

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August 2021 lawsuit

There has been a recent edit war regarding the "Business controversy" section. This details a lawsuit filed against Ohno and some business partners that has not yet been litigated. In the spirit of neutrality, I support the suppression of this information until either a) the litigation has occurred and Ohno is found culpable; or b) the ongoing litigation has some serious long-term effect on Ohno's life or career. Since the suit was filed only recently, it is still too soon to claim that (b) is true, and (a) is patently not yet true. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 21:18, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

@Oncamera: @SwissOlympian: @Skywatcher68: @VeritasVinco: pinging editors involved in the dispute. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 21:20, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

The details of the lawsuit could be shortened, but not completely removed because it's relevant to the business section on this page that is part of the article already. Also, it should be noted the editor SwissOlympian is a single purpose account that only edits this article to removed "controversial" information.  oncamera  _{(talk page)} 21:24, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

@Oncamera: It may or may not be relevant to the business section; the matter does not yet appear to have affected Ohno's business operations in any way and may turn out to be just a nuisance suit. I would argue that for neutrality (especially where biographies of living persons are involved), it would be better to omit the material entirely until the matter is litigated. I cannot speak for SwissOlympian's motives, only for my own reasoning for removing the material. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 11:57, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 7 September 2021

I'd like to request an edit of the ff:

Remove this line under the 'Business' section:

"Business lawsuit

In Kang et al v. Hybrid Trade Limited et al, Apolo Ohno, Rod Jao, Eugenio Pugliese, Henry Liu, as well as three companies they allegedly founded, Hybrid Trade Limited, Allysian Sciences, and Asia Digital Exchange, are named in a complaint filed in California on August 13, 2021. The plaintiffs allege that Ohno and the other defendants misappropriated $50 million USD in digital tokens that was raised. The claim against Ohno and the defendants includes securities fraud, negligent misrepresentation, breach of contract, promissory fraud, unjust enrichment, fraudulent conveyance, and the sale of unregistered securities. The documents submitted allege that in the first six months of 2018 the defendants offered and sold digital tokens and raised approximately $50 million USD from a variety of investors around the world including those in the United States. As the token raise, or "ICO", was never registered with the United States Securities and Exchange Commission, it violated American securities laws."

I have seen discussions about this on the talk page and edit history as well. I don't see the need to include this allegation as this can be a false claim only or not 100% factual. This can contribute to the defamation of the subject. Amelia0105 (talk) 06:11, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

The paragraph is referenced so I will not remove it unless there is some agreement on this page. You will need to work with other editors to discuss whether it should be shortened or removed. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 11:23, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

@Amelia0105 and MSGJ: I agree with Amelia on this matter. (See my arguments in the preceding section.) Until this matter is litigated, it may be nothing more than a nuisance suit. The fact that the item is referenced owes to the sensational nature of the matter; newspapers are sensationalists, but Wikipedia should not be. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 11:57, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

Okay I have tentatively removed this section pending further discussion here, and/or the result of the lawsuit. Thanks for your input — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 13:17, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

I do not think this is necessary to remove, looking at the lawsuit, it does seem very serious. Regardless of the result, Apolo was a cofounder of the company in question HybridBlock, which raised $50 million and disappeared. The sheer amount of money involved is worth a mention. - Editor — Preceding unsigned comment added by 42.2.147.191 (talk) 23:21, 17 December 2021 (UTC) I do not think this is a nuisance suit, please have a look at the lawsuit before removing it. By hiding this lawsuit, it seems like we are trying to hide negative news. Please keep this wikipedia neutral. Thanks (HybridBlock · talk)

Hi @HybridBlock, allow me to raise a few comments on why this lawsuit should be removed on Apolo's Wiki page:

Based on the Wikipedia rule:

"Exercise extreme caution in using primary sources. Do not use trial transcripts and other court records, or other public documents, to support assertions about a living person."

And based on the Apolo article:

"As the token raise, or "ICO", was never registered with the United States Securities and Exchange Commission, it violated American securities laws."

That sentence from the wiki can be considered an assertion based on court records/public documents.

Also, based on another Wikipedia rule:

"In the case of public figures, there will be a multitude of reliable published sources, and BLPs should simply document what these sources say. If an allegation or incident is noteworthy, relevant, and well documented, it belongs in the article—even if it is negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it. If you cannot find multiple reliable third-party sources documenting the allegation or incident, leave it out."

However, if you check the Wikipedia article, the MaltaToday article is the only one working. The second source, which is the PacerMonitor, is not available. So, therefore, it violated the "multiple reliable third-party sources". Amelia0105 (talk) 11:18, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

I am sorry but have you seen the Coindesk article? Theres at least 3 reliable sources pointing to the lawsuit, one of them in chinese, please do a google search before replying". Unsigned) 10:53, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

Per Wikipedia:Notability (cryptocurrencies), There is also strong consensus that cryptocurrency-focused sources (such as Coindesk or Bitcoin Magazine) should generally not be used on Wikipedia articles.  oncamera  _{(talk page)} 03:05, 21 December 2021 (UTC)