Talk:Apocalypse (character)/Archive 1

Archive 1

SHB image

Anyone out there have a better picture of Apocalypse? No offense to Dave DeVries (who produces excellent art) and the person who initially placed the current picture up, but it does little justice to such an immensely towering figure as Apocalypse.

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In the 3rd paragraph, what word is depicated supposed to be in "He is depicated with concerns of the evolution of mankind..." ? Depicated is not a word.

Holocaust

Holocaust was in Stryfe Strike Files, the Marvel One Shot tie in to X-Cutioner's Song previously mentioned. This was a hint of his eventual appearance in our world, from another reality, and there is no 616 (main marvel continuity) Holocaust. He probably died at some point. He's a son from an alternate reality. And LazerBeem was correct. I deleted the previous stuff as cleanup for the discussion area. --Kozmik Pariah 13:22, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Return of Apocalypse

Yeah. He's back, and due to the Techno Organic Virus retcon, all they need is to slaughter some useless background normal guy and wham, Apocalypse is back. At least he only appears in the epic stuff. More Cleanup, removing the old statements. --Kozmik Pariah 13:23, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Apocalypse's Name

Has anyone attempted to translate "En Sabah Nur" into a language other than 'Arabic'? Ancient Egyptian might be an interesting (and more sensible) candidate. Breaking down the sounds in the name, the (computer) transliteration would probably be in sbA nwr or in sbi nwA.

• In my admittedly limited knowledge of Hebrew it means something like "Well of Seven Lamps" 'En = Well,Sabah = Seven

Nur or Ner meaning lamp,the more recognizable meNORah containing a form of it. Sochwa 10:34, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

The literal translation of "En Sabah Nur" in the Arabic would be "Of the morning light," and the word "en," as far as I know with my limited knowledge of the Egyptian dialect, can best be translated as "of" or "by." "Sabah" literally means morning, and "Nur" means light in modern standard Arabic.

The First One

The given translation of Apocalypse's name, the First One, into Ancient Egyptian would be most closely approximated by wa tpi (prononuced approximately as wah teh-peh-ee). Decidedly not En Sabah Nur.

First Term

The term in translates to by, and is a word that is always succeeded by a noun or noun phrase.

Second Term

There is a term zbj which means send. There is a term sbA, which translates to star or gate/doorway. It is also the verb to teach. Interestingly, there is another term sbnw (pronounced seh-beh-nu) that means to go off course, and bears an obvious similarity to sbA nwr and variants thereof. When one sees n as a suffix to a verb, it conotes the Perfect tense (i.e. has heard, has done). sbA.n might be has taught.

It's also possible this is two terms combined. z is man and zA is son, protection/safeguard, or phyle. sA is back. To connect with this term, bA is the soul or personality. bjn can mean bad or evil. Interestingly, bnr means sweet.

Third Term

There is no direct term that resembles nwr or nwA. The closest to the front portion is nw, which can mean 'time or to look after/see to. The closest to the rear portion is wr, which can mean great, elder, important.

Possible Translations

Given the preceding, "by (the) great star" (in sbA wr) might be one translation, though it omits the n. Another might be "by (which the) elder has taught" (in sbA.n wr) though it disregards the rule that in must be succeeded by a noun phrase. Yet another might be "by (the) great son (of) evil" or "by (the) protection (of) great evil" (in zA bjn wr). It's this last one that I think most closely resembles the name, phonetically.

Powers

In Rise of Apocalypse En Sabah Nur's mutation seemed to be nothing more than disfigurment and possibly some enhanced physical abilities; he didn't seem to have access to any shape shifting abilites. I was basically under the impression that pretty much all his powers are the result of Kang's technology and the Celestials tampering with him. Is it stated somewhere that the shape shifting is a true mutation and not an ability Kang's technology or the Celestials gave him? Additionally, why under the "first mutant" section does it state that Apocalypse was immortal for centuries before being enhanced? I may be missing some information, but I was under the impression that he used Kang/Rama-Tut's technology to keep himself alive even before the Celestials altered him.D1Puck1T 22:46, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

I recall him growing to a fairly large size during Rise of Apocalypse, so that at least could be an innate Mutant power. I don't recall readig anywhere where it's ben said he used Kang's tech to keep himself alive for centuries (he didn't encounter the Celestial Ship until many centuries after his slave days in Egypt)... but I'm probably missing something, since I don't recall any mention of him using Kang's tech at all, but surely he would have.

I was also under the impression that the Celestials didn't alter him, he altred himself using their tech. Dr Archeville 02:12, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

The art didn't help at all, but I was under the impression that he maybe grew a little, but mostly just upped his strength, and that was what made the Egyptian slavers notice him. But again, I don't know if he was growing or if that art was just being messy in showing he got stronger. Still, I thought it was pretty clear that he took Kang/Rama-Tut's technology for his own use, until the Celestial involvement gave him even better toys.D1Puck1T 02:41, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

I recently got ahold of the Rise of Apocalypse. Apocalypse's power increased a few times over the course of the story. He had superhuman strength, rapid healing (he recovered from his chest being smashed with a very large boulder within a week), the ability to survive at least 5 weeks without food or water, and the ability to increase his size (although the comic implies that his ability to grow is in fact part of his ability to shapeshift, or at least related to it). He also did not seem to age in a 50 year period, hinting at his longevity.

It is possible that his immortality is a side-effect of his shape-shifting/regenerative powers, similar to Mystique and Wolverine.

The best example of Apocalypse increasing his height and mass, that I've seen, wasn't in any comic but rather the X-Men animated series back in the 1990s. I think the episode was titled "Obsession" and it involved Archangel searching for a way to destroy Apocalypse and all that. Anyhow, Apocalypse grew to a height that had to be in the vicinity of 100 feet. I don't know if he's capable of growing anywhere close to that height in the comics or if it was just a little creative license used on the show since it wasn't part of the X-Men comics. Odin's Beard 17:08, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Why does it show Apocalypse suffers from almost no fatique and can operate at Peak condition for prolonged periods and yet he needs he Hyperbolyic/Regeneration chamber.?? Mynyun (talk) 09:24, 12 January 2008 (UTC) Mynyun

Apocalypse has used the chambers to go into hibernation in order to await when mutants becomes more active. He has shown to use them when he needs to regenerate from seriously fatal injuries or to be resurrected. DCincarnate (talk) 00:40, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Trivia

"Apocalypse looks somewhat similar to Darksied from the DC comics in his second incarnation and, in crossovers, might even be related to him." I'm not seeing the similarity (other than possible skin tone and basic build), and I'm not familiar with any crossover that's implied they're related. Dr Archeville 23:30, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Only problem is that crossovers between the two universes aren't considered to be canon. Take the DC Vs. Marvel crossover back in the mid 1990s, it's not considered canon since it gives each universe an excuse as to why their own characters were defeated in fights. To my knowledge, Darkseid and Apocalypse have never met in any Marvel/DC crossover. Darkseid has come several Marvel characters during crossover events, most notably his Marvel counterpart Thanos and Galactus. Despite how Apocalypse has turned out, he was born on Earth in ancient Egypt. He's human but is also believed to the world's first mutant. Darkseid is an extraterrestrial. They have similar personalities in the sense that they're both tyrannical, ruthless, and similar personal philosophies. They're often considered to be "godlike" because of their powers and intelligence, but there's no real connection between them. Odin's Beard 16:27, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

That's what I was thinking; I'll remove that Trivia. Though, I believe the last Marvel/DC crossover -- the JLA/Avengers thing -- is considered canon in both. Dr Archeville 18:34, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

I've heard that as well, but I'm not really sure. I've browsed over the discussion area over some of the articles, such as Thor, and some say it's canon and some say it isn't. I don't really know if it is, but I'm not gonna disagree if someone says it's canon. Why would that one be canon, however, and not all the others though? Odin's Beard 22:38, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Who can say? I do know they're referenced Krona-as-Cosmic-Egg in at least one non-crossover DC comic, and they've referenced the events in some recent OHOTMU issues (such as the entry for Galactus in the Fantastic Four 2005 OHOTMU). Dr Archeville 23:34, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Has it ever been revealed why/what are the blue pipes that form his mouth? It's certainly one of his most distinct features. --72.202.150.92 07:01, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

General Format

A large part of this text is in present tense, which would be appropriate for a proposal, but is inappropriate for an article, especially considering the fact that these events have all happened in the Marvel Universe. The text should be changed to strictly past tense, save for any sections describing ongoing events. KuriosD

Should the theory about Apocalypse's powers being not at full development and the statment about him being one of the most powerful beings in the MU be included?

The first is just a theory and if there isn't anything to back it up should it really be in the powers and abilities section since it is just a "fan" theory?

Also, I know Apocalypse is powerful, but considering the seemingly large number of other beings whose powers dwarf his such as the abstracts, Celestials, primary mystical entities, skyfathers, etc. should this statment really be in there? seekquaze

The first one, as a theory with nothing to back it up, should definitely not be included. The second is definitely a stretch. One of the most powerful mutants in the MU? Definitely. One of the most powerful beings? No way. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.209.131.242 (talk) 02:41, 22 December 2006 (UTC).

The Twelve

The story of the Twelve begins with a young mutant by the name of Tanya Trask, who would later become Madam Sanctity. Adrift in the timestream, Tanya was rescued by Rachel Summers, in her guise of Mother Askani, and took her to the future, where she healed her mind. The future, under the rule of Apocalypse, was somber and grim, and Tanya sought to change it. She traveled back in time, three years before the formation of the X-Men, despite Mother Askani's warnings not to do so, and attempted to contact her father, Bolivar Trask. Rachel followed her and stopped her from revealing herself to her father, but not before Tanya could tamper with her father's creation, Master Mold, and upload a program called "The Twelve".

Years later, as Cyclops pondered his relationship with Madelyne Pryor in Alaska, he was attacked by Master Mold, who claimed Cyclops was one of the "strong" one of the Twelve and had to be killed. Master Mold was stopped, but not before revealing several other possible members of the Twelve, such as Charles Xavier, Apocalypse, Storm, Jean Grey, and Franklin Richards among others.

Master Mold survived the encounter and later faced Power Pack in an attempt to kill Franklin Richards. As the youngsters fought the demented robot, he revealed the nature of the Twelve: "The dozen mutant humans who will one day rise up and lead all of mutantkind in war against homo sapiens in the twilight of earth." He was stopped, but not before revealing several other possible candidates, including Danielle Moonstar, Cannonball and Psylocke.

The subsequent mention of the Twelve came from Apocalypse himself, claiming that not only he was one of the "fabled Twelve" but so too were all five original X-Men, Charles Xavier, Storm, Cannonball and Cable.

As the new millenium approached, a series of events led to the return of Apocalypse. Cable was witness to said events-- the darkening of New York City, the arrival of the Harbinger of Apocalypse, and several other signs. Mother Askani's astral form revealed herself to Cable, implanting the knowledge of who the Twelve were. Sadly, he never had the opportunity to find them.

Apocalypse began his attack by planting a fake Wolverine among the ranks of the X-Men. This led Xavier, who suspected of infiltration, to disband the X-Men. The X-Men parted ways, and soon after, Rogue and Shadowcat found themselves protecting Mystique from Japan's military, the Yakiba. As Rogue fought Sunfire and his men, Kitty "babysat" Mystique and found, unwillingly, Destiny's diary. The diary itself had a very criptic description of a "thirteenth" and told that the Twelve would be involved in the destruction of the world.

With the death of Wolverine's imposter, the X-Men reunited at the mansion, only to discover it wasn't truly Wolverine who had died, but a Skrull. The infiltrator had been found. To save Polaris from adbuction, Cyclops took her place using an image inducer, and the X-Men followed him to the Skrulls' lair, where they were attacked by Death, Apocalypse's most lethal and fiercest Horseman, the same person responsible for the death of the fake Wolverine. After a heavy battle, Death was unmasked by Colossus. The X-Men were surprised to see their newest enemy was in truth the real Wolverine. Death escaped, leaving the X-Men with half-truths and enigmas that needed solving.

Soon after, Xavier revealed the "List of Twelve", for it was clearly written in Destiny's Diary. The Twelve were: Cyclops, Phoenix, Storm, Magneto, Polaris, Living Monolith, Bishop, Cable, Xavier, Iceman, Mikhail Rasputin and Sunfire. But whatever part they had to play was not revealed.

The Horsemen of Apocalypse kidnapped Cable, Mikhail Rasputin, Iceman, Sunfire and the Living Monolith. The X-Men, with Magneto's help, rushed to Egypt, to Apocalypse's lair. They were soon attacked by an army of Skrulls and followers of Apocalypse. Amidst the battle, Bishop, who had been trapped in an alternate future reality, appeared out of thin air, furthering the confusion. Thanks to illusions and lies, the agents of Apocalypse were able to kidnap all remaining members of the Twelve. Their true role was then explained at last. Placing the Twelve inside containment cells, part of an ages-old Celestial machine, Apocalypse revealed his plan was to siphon the energies of the "Eleven of Power" through the Living Monolith to start the machine, which would grant him omnipotence. The role of each mutant was clearly explained by Apocalypse. Polaris and Magneto were opposing magnetic poles. Storm, Iceman and Sunfire were extreme forces of nature. Cyclops, Jean, and Cable represented the unity of family. Bishop and Mikhail provided control over time and space, and Xavier provided the power of pure thought. However, Apocalypse knew his frail, centuries-old body would not be able to withstand such power. And that's when he revealed the thirteenth mutant, the X-Man, Nate Grey. He intented to transfer his consciousness into Nate's young body and then use the energies of the Twelve to evolve.

He began the process, but Magneto's then-recent power loss was something Apocalypse had not counted, and soon his energies were depleted, creating a break in the chain of power. Apocalypse increased the flow of energies, attempting to bypass the break, but this drove the Living Monolith insane, destroying his containment unit and starting a rampage that unwillingly released the X-Men. While half of the team battled the Monolith, the other half attempted to stop Apocalypse. Jean Grey exposed the true nature of Apocalypse, showing his rotting body inside his armor. As he tried to enter Nate Grey's body, Cyclops took his place, sacrificing himself to save Nate. Jean attempted to contact her husband's mind, but Xavier claimed there was nothing of Cyclops left inside Apocalypse. Using the energies of the Twelve, Apocalypse re-made reality twice, attempting to re-create the process once more and finish his transformation. He was unable to do so, for the X-Men fought him both times, in the past and the future. His energies spent, he and the Living Monolith escaped. The X-Men had prevented Apocalypse from becoming a god, at the seeming expense of Cyclops' life.

First Appearance (mentioned) X-Factor #14 (1987); (in full) Uncanny X-Men #376 (2000) Significant Issues Tanya Trask uploaded info into Master Mold (Uncanny X-Men #-1, 1997); First mentioned by Master Mold (X-Factor #14, 1987); Master Mold battled Power Pack (Power Pack #36, ); Apocalypse talked about Twelve (X-Factor #68, ); Mother Askani implanted the names of the Twelve in Cable's mind (Cable #65, 1999); Xavier disbands X-Men (Uncanny X-Men #372/X-Men #92, 1999/1999); Kitty found Destiny's Diary (X-Men #94, 1999); X-Men reunited (Uncanny X-Men #375, 1999); Death revealed as Wolverine, Mikhail Rasputin Captured (X-Men #95, 1999); Cable captured (Cable #75, 2000); Twelve revealed in full (Uncanny X-Men #376, 2000); Iceman, Sunfire captured (X-Men #96, 2000), X-Man captured (X-Man 59/X-Man #60, 2000/2000); Rest of Twelve captured, Apocalypse's plan revealed (Uncanny X-Men #377, 2000); Apocalypse takes over Cyclops' body (X-Men #97, 2000); Apocalypse remade reality in the past (Uncanny X-Men #378, 2000); Apocalypse remade reality in the future, escapes (X-Men #98, 2000) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.249.119.38 (talk) 07:15, 3 January 2007 (UTC).

Genius

Apocalypse is a natural genius, capable of advancing alien materials exposed to him while in ancient times. In addition, he has thousands of years of experience. Every card or book with intelligence stats confirms that he is an exceptional or super genius. --68.224.247.53 22:42, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Level of Apocalypse

Apocalyse could be an Omega-Level mutant?

First off, please sign your edits. No hes not, unless its clearly stated in canon that he is, he is not, no argument no theory. Thefro552 23:50, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

No, he's not an Omega-Level Mutant. I believe he's an Alpha-Level Mutant. DCincarnate 16:07, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

A question about his speed

I haven't read the issue, but it sounds kind of strange as currently presented. Did he run beside Quicksilver (going by the time apparently back in the "175 miles an hour" days, rather than the later "3-4 times the speed of sound or so") as an even match? What were the circumstances? Dave 12:53, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

[1] -- DCincarnate 16:07, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Apocalypse 1st Appearance - Uncanny X-men 119?

According to Marvel's Universe Connections (cool website, check it out [[2]]), Apocalypse first appearance was in Marvel Graphic Novel 17, "Revenge of the Living Monolith" in June of 1985. X-Factor 6 wasn't until July of 1986.

Issue 119 (1978, versus Moses Magnum) has an appearance of Apocalypse in 4 panels on the 13th page [[3]]. It is Apocalypse, clear as day. The panels are a flash-back to the time Moses Magnum fell down into a shaft he had bore with his laser drill in Powerman Annual #1. Apocalypse saves him and boosts his power. This Uncanny X-men issue (1978) was seven years before his unamed appearance in the "Revenge of the Living Monolith" graphic novel (1985) and his first full appearance in X-Factor (1986).

1.) I do not have Powerman Annual #1, and I would like to check it out. This probably has nothing to do with Apocalypse.

2.) I am not reading an original copy of issue 119. I am reading the Uncanny X-men DVD reprinting all the issues, so I am wondering if it has been altered after his appearance in X-Factor. (I.e. Was this the original Star Wars: Episode IV or the re-release of Star Wars: Episode IV with Jabba the Hutt?)

3.) Someone please confirm this with an original issue of Uncanny X-men 119.

Sept. 15, 2007

First off please sign your comments. Second Im looking at the original issue 119 and the explanation, which is on page 19, for his powers is given as a combined quark of his laser drill, exotic weaponry of his suit and the elemental force of the quake he was falling in. Its a one panel explanation and there is no Apocalypse. I dont know what your seeing. Thefro552 11:55, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

I am looking at the DVD reprint (which has issue 119 in 1979, not 1978) and did not see the panels you linked from uncannyxmen.net anywhere in the comic. I am also unsure what you are seeing, but I am reasonable certain that while he may have been retconned in, he is not in the original or in the "40 Years of the X-Men" DVD collected edition. 71.139.16.230 01:59, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I just read over the issue in question and I do believe I know what the OP is talking about. I believe they are talking about the last panel on the flashback page, it is not however "clear as day" that it is Apocalypse, it is quite obvious that it is Moses Magnum himself.Peter Parker 007 (talk) 22:31, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

The High Evolutionary Blast?

It was a long time since I read the issue, but I only remember that he avoided one. Could you show a scan? Preferably ones of the Black Bolt scream, and the Exodus blast as well, if that's ok. I haven't read those. Dave 17:05, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Beyond that there really are a whole lot of unreferenced statements in the powers section. Could you put in some for all of the listed feats, so I can check them up? When did he heal limbs within seconds or exert precise force-field control for example? Dave 19:09, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

• Here [4] Apocalypse regenerates from a puddle of ooze while severely weakened. Note how he’s regenerating up from liquid, his legs look more like the size of blue bones and liquid compared to his pelvic area and the holes for his legs, and parts of his body looking emaciated, the back of his head even drooping from an ooze form.

Actually, no, he is only regenerating his legs and acid-burns?/some covering? on his arms and chest, and for how long was he incapacitated until his legs were healed? Hours? Minutes?

• Here [5]Apocalypse, with a wave of his hand, creates a force field to keep Caliban protected, and sends him, in it, flying by will. Again, he waves his, (an energy sign is shown), and Caliban in the force field comes to him. [6]

"Control at will" emplies that he can mould them like the Invisible Woman. "Trap others with" would be to the point.

• I doubt Apocalypse could have avoided HE's blast. It was HUGE. And Apocalypse was already firing a blast at HE, while HE fired his blast at Apocalypse right afterwards. [7] -- DCincarnate 13:44, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

The blast was shown crashing through the space ship without pushing out Apocalypse. He and the Evolutionary were blown out by the pressure simultaneously. No indications whatsoever that he was hit by it, but very strong ones to the contrary. The blast wasn't particularly large, and Apocalypse had no problem avoiding the rest. Dave 20:13, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Frenzy Punch?

When did she handle the She-Hulk? That shouldn't be remotely possible given that even X-Factor members were able to handle her back in those days, at their incredibly weak, pre-power-up, early series degrees, not Phoenix, Omega Mutant Iceman, Rogue-level Beast, or Bishop-overloading Cyclops ones. (In the '90-'91 handbook Frenzy was described as level 10 at the time she fought X-Factor, compared to She-Hulk's level 75 at the time) In any case handling her at that level many years afterwards doesn't change the one she was at in those days, much like with Cyclops. Dave 16:32, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Btw: I haven't been able to find the Eternals special yet, so a scan of shrugging off Ikaris' punch would be welcome. Dave 16:42, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

[8] DCincarnate 18:10, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

That seems unambiguous enough, but what (and when) about Frenzy and She-Hulk? It doesn't make any sense. Frenzy was somewhere between (then) Beast and Spider-Man in her X-Factor days. The reference reads as if the state she was in then was greater than the one She-Hulk is in now (once outright stated as the strongest woman in the Universe after besting the Champion, but she was powered-up at the time). I suppose the only time it could have happened was in the Heroes for Hire run (even if I've evidently forgotten this one), but then again Ostrander had Hulk beaten by Ironclad and Orca beaten by (then Spider-Man level) Luke Cage, so he apparently did whatever he felt like/took enormous liberties to advance the plot. An issue number would be nice though. Dave 18:45, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

It was when Frenzy became ambassador of Genosha and served as Magneto's right-hand woman. When the Avengers infiltrated Genosha, Cargill fought She-Hulk and was able to defeat her. DCincarnate 00:04, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I found it with google. Magneto: Dark Seduction #3 right? But it was stated in the previous issue that Fabian Cortez greatly increased the abilities of the Acolytes at the time, and we only saw her punch She-Hulk into a wall in the opening of issue #3, not that she was out or that it was anything beyond a sucker-punch. Regardless, originally she was still just (shown and stated) as at most Spider-Man level. Dave 19:19, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Mid level importance?

How is Apocalypse Mid-level importance when Exodus is rated "high". Can someone explain this to me? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.51.250.221 (talk) 17:59, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

WHAT are you talking about?? DCincarnate 18:14, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

It's seen in the box above how important the article is considered. I have no idea if this is randomly selected or based on visits. Perhaps it's because of the character's name? People getting interested from the disambiguation link at the main "Exodus" article. Dave 19:16, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

About the House of M profile and appearance

These pages were all written very sparsely, with the main bulk of the character roster only offered half a page each. Apocalypse's entry read:

"Apocalypse is a mutant with the ability to alter his atomic structure. He does not seem to require sustenance of any kind and can recover from devastating physical injuries that would kill most humans and mutants. Apocalypse possesses superhuman strength and can lift close to 20 tons, though he can draw mass an energy from other sources to enhance his strength to unknown limits."

I.e. it covered the main part in as limited space as possible, like in all other profiles, whether they had a complex set of powers or just one. The history text also stated that he was a worthy rival of Magneto and that the two had a personal battle to lead all of mutantkind. Far from a disparaging portrayal of his abilities.

In the Black Panther issue showing his battle with Namor as the event was occurring he also adapted his body to grow gills and turn stronger than the (barely) "class 100" Namor, which rhymes well with his standard attributes. (Possibly other examples, but those are the ones I remember) As I've said previously, the only things that changed were the last 20 years of history. Unless something happened to visibly change their powers in that time (Peter Parker not being bitten by a spider or somesuch) the characters remained at their usual power-levels, especially a thousands of years old one like Apocalypse. Thus Black Bolt managing to destroy him rationally stands. Dave 19:53, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

The current version seems fair enough, although it should probably be signified in the character history that this wasn't an alternate reality/timeline, just the regular world and character memories instantly shifted to reflect a (theoretical) change in human/mutant relationships as if it originated 20 years back or so, but really occurring instantly without change in time. Dave 20:07, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Age

The introduction claims that Apocalypse is over 5,000 years old yet his fictional biography states that he was born in the 3rd century BC. I don't have solid info myself but just wanted it brought to the attention of those who may. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Joon01 (talk • contribs) 06:49, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Complete control over his body

Personal boasting should be taken as just that until proven. "He can alter the atomic structure of his body" is what's been shown. Stating this along with the available list of displayed capabilities is the appropriate solution. He is not omnipotent, as 'complete control', i.e. freely mimicking any superhuman to any extent, implies. He is supposed to be an extremely dangerous villain on par with or a tad above Magneto, i.e. less powerful than, say, the Silver Surfer, Sentry, and Thanos. That's it. The handbooks are usually extremely reliable in terms of descriptions and character comparisons, and more importantly, are the official editorial word on the matter. The problem/largely unwarranted bad reputation generally stems from the silly 'class 100' scale, which doesn't work on characters that can exert force equivalent to shifting continents or shattering planets. Dave (talk) 20:12, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

How does having "complete control" over your structure, make you omnipotent?? I don't see whats wrong with it. Heck, the handbooks state that Mister Sinister has total control of his body at the molecular level. Also, Apocalypse can mimic any physical superhuman power, not all superhuman powers like heat vision or something. Only physical. DCincarnate (talk) 00:53, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Because then he can just get the DNA makeup of Franklin Richards or anyone else by thinking about it. "Any physical power" includes heat-vision, and possibly even psionic abilities. Dave (talk) 14:41, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

The "physical abilities" thing goes for stuff like: claws, bending/Reed Richards style, wings, superhuman speed, jumping, etc. Most anything that can be denoted as being "a physical power" he can give himself. It's all a matter of changing his physical structure to match. Complete control over his structure is what allows him to do the feats he does. And how is Heat vision and psionic abilities physical powers?? Oh, and DNA makeup of Franklin Richards? Serious speculations on your part, that doesn't even make sense. DCincarnate (talk) 15:38, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

No, complete molecular control means that he could alter his entire genetic make-up at a whim, as long as he knew the code. That's the meaning of the sentence. Any physical power reads like he could give himself any non-spiritual power whatsoever (thumb through the character roster, for Marvel characters with any physically based power whatsoever and he can do it), and possibly ones linked to the brain, since it is part of the physical self. Yes, that could be read as nitpicking, but I think these distinctions are important to avoid misdirection, just like I don't appreciate that people won't let me change Hulk's near-limitless strength", to "astounding strength". Dave (talk) 17:42, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, he can already alter his atomic make-up. So, he is already capable of altering his entire genetic make-up as it is. DCincarnate (talk) 19:02, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Nah, that's the difference between 'control' and 'absolute control'. He can turn himself into machines of various abilities and metals, grow large, emit blasts and such, along with disguising himself as other humans. He has not shown the ability to turn into a god at a whim, by mimicking the genetic make-up of Franklin Richards, or any other virtually omnipotent human. Dave (talk) 19:36, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

So, what about Mister Sinister? Handbooks states that he has total control of his body at the molecular level. DCincarnate (talk) 20:10, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Then the handbook writers didn't realise how the way they worded that would sound. He can/could regenerate from damage almost instantly, and shape-shift into human form. That's it. He heals swifter than Apocalypse, but is othervise a lesser shapeshifter. He has never shown the ability to mimic any DNA-code he has on file either, and the handbooks only list these, the force-blasts, and the telepathy as far as I remember. The only Marvel megamorph remotely on that level that I can think of would be Meggan, but even she has limits depending on how much power the planet can afford. Dave (talk) 20:17, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Anyway, Apocalypse does have complete control. Apocalypse's powers give him the potential to gain the power(s) of at least one other mutant. Theoretically, he can reshape his DNA to have all mutant powers. Of course, that's just potential, it hasn't been done or talked about in comics. DCincarnate (talk) 21:03, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

No, that's pushing wishful thinking as fact, rather than sticking to what's been shown. If he could do that he would have long ago, and not even have bothered with the Twelve ceremony, or absorbing power from Nathan. All of reality would be clay to him, all the time, and the universe would be one giant extermination-camp. He's ancient. It's not like he hasn't mastered his abilities by now. He can change into machinery of shifting composition, grow, stretch and disguise himself. Turning into spaceships, giant laser cannons, and mimicking mechanical powers such as force-fields, teleportation, and energy-absorbtion/discharges is plenty. Dave (talk) 21:47, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

He has still been stated as being able to give himself any physical power. However all this "alter genetic make-up to match the DNA of another" is more speculation than anything. It doesn't even sound possible. You can't really make some sense out of comic book powers. If anything, Complete just implies that he would be resistant to matter manipulation. DCincarnate (talk) 22:20, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Yeah virtually any physical mechanical powers, not genetic ones. Then again, that could be read as turning into a nega-bomb, or the ultimate nullifier... Gah. I generally really hate these kinds of ambiguous hyperbole, hint-hint say no more, POV-speculation statements. While the handbook is the official word on the matter, the end, it simultaneously uses the 'class 100' and 'virtually unlimited strength' for the Hulk... Now that's messed-up in both cases. Better to stick with internal comparisons, statements about the nature of a character, and what's actually been shown. Virtually and near-complete don't seem like big demands though, and it's not like you're an unreasonable individual. The Galactus page... brrr. Now that's the by far most hyperbole- and misrepresentation-happy page I've, in all seriousness, ever seen in Wikipedia. It finds so many ways of saying that he is omnipotent, more powerful than Infinity and Oblivion and the most powerful and inexhaustible being who ever existed anywhere, along with being the embodiment of the entire cosmos, the power cosmic, able to overpower the Infinity Gauntlet, the equal of Death and Eternity and a third of the Living Tribunal. I had to take a break to avoid going nuts from discussing with the wall. It's the greatest weakness of Wikipedia. If enough deliberate liars team up, they can misinform anyone. The second greatest being that you can find a paragraph to either censor or rationalise anything. Dave (talk) 23:25, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

It does not say mechanical physical powers. Just any physical powers. Anyway, it's splitting hairs. If he can alter his atoms, he can maniuplate his DNA. Having complete control has nothing to do with it. DCincarnate (talk) 09:57, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Mechanical powers are the ones he consistently uses, and complete means that there is no upper limit. He could go to Celestial level in an instant, so I'd rather stick with the powers he's actually shown, rather than include a badly worded phrase, but at the end of the day it's listed in the handbook, so it has to stay, even though it shouldn't and makes no sense in his entire historical context. No speculation comments about being able to mimic any superhuman around are allowed in the entry though. If it has to be there it should be exactly quoted. Dave (talk) 18:26, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Immortality?

It seems inaccurate to state that Apocalypse is immune to ageing, when his energies do, in fact, turn his hosts into wizened old men, as shown when his armour was damaged in the "twelve" crossover, and, I think, one of the "Adventures of Cyclops and Phoenix" or "Ascanison" minis. Better to state that, as long as he finds hosts to transfer between he is functionally immortal. Although wasn't there some mention that he needed to transfer more rapidly as time went on? It's a muddled memory. Dave (talk) 20:12, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

That Apocalypse is "an old man" during the Twelve crossover is rather POV-ish. From the looks of it, Apocalypse's body could simply be, well, 'burned out', which doesn't mean that he is old. Apocalypse is not human looking for starters. Again, handbooks states that his vast energies was burning out his body. It was first brought up in the Adventures of Cyclops and Phoenix... which isn't canon, btw. That Apocalypse has been and are using host bodies are essentially not true; his physical from wasn't shown to be burned out until X-Men 97. It also goes against all pre-existing continuity. DCincarnate (talk) 00:47, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes they were burning out his bodies, making the one in the Twelve very explicitly look old and vizened. I.e. they eventually age and die unless he jumps hosts. That's the entire point of him requiring hosts. Sticking to a single one would not make him immortal. Cyclops and Phoenix was canon in the sense that it was them and Cable there, but yes it was an alternate-future Apocalypse. "The Twelve", and apparently the handbook, going by your comment above, confirm this. Dave (talk) 14:46, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Sure he can look old, but so can people with cancer and other diseases, so depiction doesn't mean that he's aging. We don't know that burning out the body would kill him either. It could possibly leave him a comatose ragdoll. --67.109.84.5 (talk) 23:37, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

X-Factor 68 Power-Up

I’ve re-checked the story in question (Am I the only one who found it painfully bad in writing and art?), and in issue 67 Apocalypse revealed to the Dark Riders that the point of his scheme was to feed on the previously captured Nathan Summers to remove him as a threat. He is here normal size while sitting in his chair. When we later see him, at the end of the issue, after the fight with his enslaved army, his seemingly normal form is gloating that he will kill baby Nathan and there is nothing Cyclops can do about it, as the latter is already inserted into the power-feeding machine along with other superhumans inside test tubes. All connected with lots of power cables to the same source. When Cyclops attacks, this is revealed as a hologram, and Apocalypse is shown thoroughly imbedded in the power cables, in massive, bloated form, having already gorged upon the similarly imbedded, at this point in time considered Franklin Richards level, Nathan and the captured Inhumans. It was already too late.

During the first part of issue 68 he remains imbedded and feeding while the Dark Riders capture X-Factor. When Cyclops awakens quite some time later, X-Factor is similarly encapsulated within ‘feeding-tubes’, and Apocalypse states: “From your strength. From your lifeforce… my own will be reborn! As the flames of your existence gutter towards extinction… so do mine burn brighter and hotter than the stars!” X-Factor’s faces are shown in anguish together with baby Nathan, and 6 members of the twelve, including Cable (adult Nathan), Professor X, and Storm, as their life forces continue to be fed upon. After that the free Inhumans break and free X-Factor, with Cyclops stating, “Those conduits are re-energizing Apocalypse! We have to cut him loose!” and Apocalypse compliments him on his sense of strategy. When the Askani warrior (Rachel Summers?) manages to free baby Nathan, the enormously powered-up Apocalypse withstands Cyclops and Black Bolt’s assault. After this Jean and Cyclops defeat Apocalypse on an astral plane, and combine theirs and Nathan’s remaining power into one blast, which instantly demolishes Apocalypse’s body.

Additionally, Black Bolt didn't show anywhere near his later established, or even then current, full destructive output, which would easily have annihilated any part of the complex in a 90-degree radius by the side of the blast, along with any still captured allies from sheer proximity. His full scream is not the sort of power that can be narrowed down like this thin blast. It is uncontrolled, wide-area collateral damage, only. Not to mention that the Cyclops blast should have been far less powerful than something that can easily shatter worlds… although then again at this point in time it was mountains only.

Regardless, the image is misleading without at least mentioning that Apocalypse had vastly powered-up by feeding on multiple powerful superhumans at the time. Dave (talk) 20:12, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Teleporting a fortress?

Which issue was this, and was it certain that this was not done through the use of equipment? Dave (talk) 20:12, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

[9] [10] DCincarnate (talk) 23:38, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Non-free image overuse

The tag was removed with the comment "there are only 7 images in the article". I have restored the tag, because that's exactly the problem ehen you consider that in certain circumstances even one non-free image can be too many (WP:NFCC#3a). Other policies that apply here are WP:NFCC#8 and WP:NFC#Images. Black Kite 09:43, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I really don't see what the problem is with these images. DCincarnate (talk) 22:26, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

There is no problem. Black Kite is just a deletionist troll. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.107.163.121 (talk) 01:09, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Be that as it may, deleting the template is not a very nice way of making your point. Please be polite. Yvh11a (Talk • Contribs) 01:47, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Atomic or molecular?

What level does Apocalypse have control over his body? Comics states that Apocalypse controls his body at the molecular level, while Handbooks says that the character can alter the atomic structure of his body. DCincarnate (talk) 16:21, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Handbooks are neat, but I don't know if they are cannon, sometimes they are, sometimes they are meant to be, but really they were published to make a buck, and writers don't pay attention. I'd go with the in comic content for accepted facts.12.219.45.27 (talk) 09:35, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure. Apocalypse can evidently change into different basic inert substances and alloys, i.e. mix and match his atomic and molecular make-up to a certain extent, although apparently not to gas, or change his DNA at a whim (his Ultimate Universe counterpart can mimic superhuman abilities through mimicking the DNA of those he has scanned though). The handbook is also the final word from the editor in chief, and far more reliable than, say, editorial promotion blurbs, so I'd say molecular and atomic, but within certain limits. Not always correct though. Nobody's infallible, and the "class 100" range is ridiculous, but certainly a generally reliable reference. He's not as powerful as Franklin Richards and Celestials every day of the week after all. Dave (talk) 18:53, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Thats true, but he could handle having such power. Most Humans/Mutants in the Marvel Universe go nuts after being bestowed something that is far more powerful then themselves but Apocalypse's mind can handle it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.202.182.93 (talk) 23:33, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Cyborg Parts?

When and how did Apocalypse get his robotic parts I looked in the article but can't find the answer —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gimodon (talk • contribs) 16:51, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

"Robotic parts"? Are you talking about how he merged with Celestial technology? DCincarnate (talk) 22:24, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

If thats how he got his armor and arm cables than yes —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.204.160.88 (talk) 16:09, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Flesh color. Really?

The story of Apocalypse begins 3000 BC Egypt during the First Dynasty. Born gray-skinned (although Apocalypse's skin color is sometimes depicted as flesh colored or dark skinned)

This sentence makes no sense. There are more than one flesh tones, including dark skin.

--Vehgah (talk) 14:49, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

First Appearance

According to Marvel.com...

First Appearance Marvel Graphic Novel #17; (fully identified) X-Factor #5 (1986)

so, why X-men 119 is listed as first appearance? —Preceding unsigned comment added by DeadTotoro (talk • contribs) 03:28, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

TERENCE GRIFFIN —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.18.14.195 (talk) 21:27, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Images

There seems to be a proliferation of images on this page, 6 total which does not reflect minimal use. I would recommend limiting it to 3, possible the Egyptian and Cyclops, as the other two aren't exclusive images, and the Blood of Apoca ... is not too signficant for the character (regarding images). -Sharp962 (talk) 21:06, 20 July 2009 (UTC).

Looking 'em over...

1. file:Xmen183apocover.png (infobox) is a very good representation of the "standard" character
2. file:Ensabnur.jpg is also pretty good since it give the character's later added "original" look (gotta love retcons...)
3. file:Archangeapoc.png - FUR: "Illustration of a specific point within the article."
4. file:Nathaninfectedbyapoc.png - FUR: "Illustration of a specific point within the article."
5. file:ApocalypseTwelve.jpg - FUR: "The image is significant in identifying the subject of the article, which is the character himself."
6. file:Xmen182vol.2.jpg - FUR: "Illustration of a specific point within the article."

1 & 2 really are keepers. 3 through 6 though... aside from #5, they really don't provide anything that is hard to state in the article text. Also, 3 & 6 feel link "And another shot of how the character looks in the 'present'".

- J Greb (talk) 21:42, 20 July 2009 (UTC)