Talk:Antonio José Martínez

Penitente Section

The Penitente section in this article needs work:

• What is the source for the statement that in 1832 Padre Martinez "became authorized to supervise a religion . . . ." Authorized by whom? What religion? Was he authorized to supervise the Penitentes or Catholics generally in Northern New Mexico? All sources I've read have the Brotherhood operating outside ecclessial authority, being condemned first by Bishop Zubíria of Durango in 1833 and later by the American Archbishops until Byrne in 1947.
• Moreover, the Penitentes did not become a "secret socety" until Church persecution under Lamy and Salpointe, when they were forced to go underground, and that for the most part post-dated Martinez's death.
• The origins of the Penitentes remains a mystery. The Spanish asceticism brought by the colonists (and observed on the Oñate expedition) was not the same as the rituals of the Penitentes, although it clearly left fertile ground for the emergence of the Order.
• The use of retablos and bultos is/was not limited to Penitente rites and rituals, but was part of a greater, more comprehensive New Mexican folk Catholicism.

Murcielago 17:25, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

In New Mexican Lives on pag 121 E.A. Mares states "Padre Martínez, it is fairly certain, assumed a position of spiritual leadership for the Penitentes when he was authorized by the last of the Franciscan regional superiors to supervise whatever 'Penitentes where to be found in the country north of Santa Fe'" Please add aditional information. Kevin 08:03, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

I've altered this section to reflect the "controversy" part of Martinez's support of the penitentes, as well as to keep the focus on Martinez. As a completely other section, I think we should focus on Lamy's "Americanization" of the Church, and Martinez's opposition to it. That would include Lamy's attempt to suppress Hispano devotion to their Santos, as well as, for example, the fact that Lamy was importing European ideas, such as the construction of the Cathedral Of St. Francis in Santa Fe (architecturally not of this new world), while tithing the poor of New Mexico to realize those foreign ideas. Murcielago 16:00, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Sounds good, I still have to add the legacy of the Padre.Kevin 08:15, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Archbishop Lamy

Interesting anachronism: Lamy was a Bishop when he excommunicated Martinez; he did not become Archbishop until 1875 (Martinez died in 1867). The world knows him as "Archbishop", though. Any thoughts as to whether the subsection should be "Bishop Lamy" or stand as it is? Murcielago 21:01, 22 May 2006 (UTC) Bishop is probably more accurate. Kevin 21:33, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Some questions and comments

A very interesting article—I learned a lot!

• 1. What is "the situation that was condoned by the US government as well under the policy of Manifest Destiny"?

• 2. I think it would be good to have a source for the speculation "Possibly his desire to avoid thinking about his loss… started Martínez on his quest…"

• 3. What is the significance of "He [Armijo] approved more than half of all land grants made by the Mexican government"? Could he disapprove grants made by the government? What would happen if he did? Or does this just mean that they were made during his administration?

• 4. "Martínez and his brothers are well-known for resisting Bent and his collaborators from fulfilling their desires in Taos." I think it would be better to say this another way; it looks like there's no source for it. Also, it would be good to briefly mention whether the Martínezes had any success with their resistance.

• 5. How did the failure of the Texan Santa Fe Expedition lead to the belief that New Mexico was weak? Does that sentence mean that the failure of the expedition roused desires for revenge, and the large number of Americans living in N. M. suggested that revenge was possible?

• 6. In the controversies with Lamy, it would be nice to say which side each man was on. Parenthetically, someone should put some of this material in the article on Jean Baptiste Lamy, and someone (maybe me) should do that with the material on Lamy and Manuel Chaves.

• 7. I would delete most of the material on the Revolt of 1837 (New Mexico), since it's in the article. All that's necessary here is the part about Martínez's role, maybe with a brief mention of his family's wealth. I did something similar in the section on the Penitentes, but maybe it could be even shorter and combined with the section on Lamy.

• 8. Is the book Religión really famous?

Anyway, thanks for teaching me some history. —JerryFriedman 00:24, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for questioning, this makes it better, I'll answer soon. Kevin 23:54, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

OK, I can answer questions now, all though most recommendations have been changed already.

• 1. What is "the situation that was condoned by the US government as well under the policy of Manifest Destiny"?

Someone has removed this part so I think it doesn't matter.

• 2. I think it would be good to have a source for the speculation "Possibly his desire to avoid thinking about his loss… started Martínez on his quest…"

I changed this to make it not sound so non-objective. His daughter's death must have been quite influential, however.

• 3. What is the significance of "He [Armijo] approved more than half of all land grants made by the Mexican government"? Could he disapprove grants made by the government? What would happen if he did? Or does this just mean that they were made during his administration?

My point was to say, as I'm sure after your research you know, he was in charge of saying "yes" or "no" to whoever desired land. This means he was directly responsible for approvals, not his higher-ups back in Mexico. It seems he was not completely honest.