Talk:Antitheatricality

From 2014

I've just begun this article and will be working through a more thorough one soon. Keithpaulmedelis (talk) 23:23, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

This is very much a work in progress with quite a bit of work under my belt. But it's focus is mostly prior to the eighteenth-century and Jonas covers territory into the twentieth-century. My hope is that with the resources provided others can take the reins from here.Keithpaulmedelis (talk) 02:50, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Rewriting

Besides the over-reliance on the Barish reference pointed out in the clean-up tagging, the article suffers from being over-written. I have moved it to a more generic title, and made a bunch of redirects to integrate the (interesting) topic better into the encyclopedia. Charles Matthews (talk) 19:24, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

Charles Matthews, I'm glad that someone is bothering to take an interest in an unloved article, which I stumbled on by accident a little while ago and didn't know what to do with. The alternative approach that I thought of was of making the article about the book, rather than the phenomenon (the book did receive interesting reviews). The problem with your rename is that 'antitheatricality' as a phenomenon usually refers not to prejudice against theatricality, but meaning the conscious employing of non-theatrical devices (Beckett? Pinter? Some highly naturalistic plays/films where nothing consciously theatrical happens). In a similar way that anti-hero doesn't mean opposition to heroes. Pincrete (talk) 21:35, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

Considering the redirects I mentioned and their contexts (anti-theatricality, anti-theatrical, antitheatrical, antitheatrical prejudice, anti-theatrical prejudice, anti-theatrical polemic, anti-theatrical discourse), all of which were words or phrases already in use in other articles, there did seem to be a core concept of antitheatricality present here. A hatnote could be used to clarify the scope of the article. Charles Matthews (talk) 05:40, 16 June 2016 (UTC)

You exercise your judgement, I was simply giving my thoughts. Whilst it is practically a commonplace truth that theatre has always been the poor relation of other art forms, a view often held by practitioners themselves, I couldn't find much that studied this as a concept, or named it as such, but you go ahead and do what you can.Pincrete (talk) 10:46, 16 June 2016 (UTC)

There does seem to be a different concept of "anti-theatricality" at work in the third section of Michael Fried. Antitheatricality hasn't made it into the Oxford English Dictionary yet, but it's not a neologism, in that "Renaissance antitheatricality", for example, has currency among academics, in the sense of anti-theatrical discourse. Suggest the article should be allowed to develop somewhat. The Barish book is from a generation ago. Charles Matthews (talk) 11:45, 16 June 2016 (UTC)

Problem with title

Pointing to my post above "The problem with your rename is that 'antitheatricality' as a phenomenon usually refers not to prejudice against theatricality, but meaning the conscious employing of non-theatrical devices (Beckett? Pinter? Some highly naturalistic plays/films where nothing consciously theatrical happens). In a similar way that anti-hero doesn't mean opposition to heroes."Pincrete (talk) 18:47, 17 October 2016 (UTC)

Rewriting 2017/18

'Antitheatricality', as a word not commonly in use, is a bit of a mouthful. It seems to cover two rather different concepts, 1. opposition to theatre for moral or religious reasons, 2. opposition to theatre from within the art world itself. I came across this article out of interest in the first concept, particularly in relation to the 19th/20th centuries and have added some material there. The opening paragraph of the article could do with some tidying and I will have a go. If I have misunderstood any of it, I hope someone will correct me! Petrosbizar (talk) 16:55, 30 September 2017 (UTC)

I have been increasingly drawn into this article and so have continued edits with a view to clarification, together with new material for 19th/20th century. There are several issues worth developing by others.
Since the article is no longer a student's exposition of Barish (useful though it was as an initial skeleton), it would be helpful to move some of Barish off-stage.
Also, it is not clear with some of the quotes if they are from Barish or from Barish's sources.
Also, the original editor stopped early 19th century, so there is no overview to build on for 19th-21st century. My own contributions for this period, though well documented, lack any authoritative overview.Petrosbizar (talk) 16:38, 19 November 2017 (UTC)
I am about to go over the main text and edit it so as to produce greater clarity and flow. Although I have no expertise in theatrical matters, I am familiar with histories of philosophy, religion and ethics, and in a way, 'antitheatricality' belongs to a subset of all these. Petrosbizar (talk) 23:49, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
I have just discovered that Barish's book can be read online at Google Books. It becomes clear that the original article had a number of mistakes in it. Also that Barish's book is not a comprehensive history but more a series of essays loosely attached to an historical framework. Its 500 pages with complex arguments (not themselves NPOV) will never easily be reduced to an article, but some of the insights are well worth including. (So much for moving Barish off-stage!) Petrosbizar (talk) 23:27, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
After reading some of Barish, I have made some improvements to 'Plato' while still keeping it brief. Any Plato scholars are welcome to improve further. Petrosbizar (talk) 20:17, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
Have now done the same with Rome and the early Christians. Hopefully this part of the article now has better shape with useful quotes set in a clear context. Also some progression in the concept of antitheatricality in its journey from Athens to Rome, and from pagan to Christian. The convergence and divergence of secular & religious attitudes should also emerge later. Petrosbizar (talk) 15:35, 9 December 2017 (UTC)