Talk:Antisocial personality disorder/Archive 1

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Muchas Gracias

Many thanks to whoever removed the crazed ramblings Re: Corporate Psychopathy Awareness - how did we all miss that for three weeks? Geoff NoNick

This page is completely wrong!

Psychopathy is not "antisocial personality disorder." Psychopathy needs its own separate page, since it is a well defined and objectively measured condition (likely the only such phenomenon in all of psychology, see books by Dr. Robert Hare, and his PCL-R posted by someone below). This is URGENT because normal people are being punished as 'psychopaths 'or 'sociopaths' after an APD 'diagnosis' while dangerous true psychopaths are free to cause mayhem. Please correct it all who can, since it is truly urgent.

Are you suggesting that the definition of APB on this page does not reflect the accepted definition, or that the accepted definition is wrong? If the latter, this isn't the place to try to change psychiatric practice. Geoff NoNick 15:06, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

No, I suggest neither option: the page is wrong because it claims over and over again that the definitions of APD and psychopathy are equivalent, which they most definitely are not. Even worse, the APD page claims that APD is measured by (Dr. Robert Hare's) PCL-R. Worst of all, disastrously so, the page asserts this equivalence with such force that users looking for the article on psychopathy get redirected to the APD article. Since psychopathy is a clear-cut construct with enormous life-saving potential and supported through many different lines of evidence (neurological, physiological, behavioral, psychometric, etc), the APD page as it stands is a tremendous error and disservice. Thus, psychopathy needs its own page. 10:45, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

I have restored the Psychopathy page to the last version, in the hope that all those commenting here on it's merging will have plenty to add to the article, and plenty to say in discussion? --82.195.137.125 17:39, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

It is also my feeling that all commentary specific to Psychopathy should be removed from this page and placed there, with cross references on both where relevant but I would rather seek a concensus before doing anything so drastic. However, may I point out that the entry for Infectious Disease does not contain all the information on Malaria, nor does the entry for Malaria redirect there. I respectfully suggest that this is a similar case. --82.195.137.125 18:05, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

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The decision was made long ago to merge the article on psychopathy with the article on antisocial personality disorder. Wikipedia seems to prefer to use DSM-IV-TR terminology for the psychiatric disorders, and antisocial personality disorder is the DSM's conception of psychopathy although you are correct in that it does not completely capture all the traits of a psychopathic personality as described in the tradition of Hervey Cleckley, Robert Hare, and others. The American Psychiatric Association broke from the theoretical tradition on psychopathy beginning with its DSM-III version of antisocial personality disorder, which was a long list of specific behaviors much like the DSM-IV-TR's conduct disorder. The DSM-IV simplified the criteria into somewhat more general traits, but it tends to approximate the impulsive antisociality of Factor 2 (in the two factor model) better than the sleak and deceptive narcissism of Factor 1. Antisocial personality disorder and psychopathy are not precisely equivalent, but the DSM-IV-TR diagnosis of antisocial personality disorder is an operationalization of the theoretical construct of psychopathy, of which the PCL-R is another.

Psychopathy, as measured by the PCL and PCL-R, tends to be better researched than the DSM's version simply because the experts on psychopathy prefer the fuller and more accurate definition of the disorder that the PCL-R gives them than the DSM's APD.

Actually, it would seem to have just been merged and re-directed by a private individual, not unlike myself, who has just undone that, thus far the sky has shown no signs of falling in. This seems to be a big part of what Wikipedia is about. Thus ensuring that while nothing here can ever be wholly accurate, let alone ideal or perfect, nothing ever needs to be inaccurate or misrepresented for long unless we let it be? --82.195.137.125 18:12, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

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How does the page psychopathy relate to this entry? Nixdorf 16:02, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Being a psychopath I would have to tell you all to shut the fuck up and understand that a sociopath is different than an aggressive sociopath. not only that, but antisocial personality disorder doesn't exactly mean someone has an aggressive, or psychotic behavior towards others. They could perhaps have austistic attributes because of their failure of socialization with others. The other interesting thing about the book of Psychiatry is that if sociopaths don't plan ahead, how can they mimick people around them? Yes, there is a flaw in that big o' DSMV book.- Cyberman

I'm also ranting on about things!

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I hate this article! There is a difference between sociopaths (APD) and psychopaths. The answer is so simple that the article makes me sick. Sociopathy (APD) is caused by NURTURE (abused as a child, being exposed to violence, etc.) causing the person's sympathy and feeling for other humans to be callous. A conscience is not something that can be gained, but it can however be lost or calloused. Think about it- if you take a kid outside once a week to shoot a dog, 1st time he'll cry and feel sympathy for the dog but ultimately will shoot it if you make him. 2nd time won't be so tough. 10th time will be nothing to him. Then replace the dog with a human every week (yes i know, very hypothetical, but it's applicable to my case)his first time killing the human will make the kid pretty guilty but give him a couple more sessions and he'll have no problem. All the kid is doing is adapting to his given situation by callousing his conscience. Comparable to your fingers callousing when learning to play guitar. First time your fingers will be soft and the metal strings will cause them pain, but over time and frequency of practice, the fingers will adapt, as will your conscience. But just because their conscience's callous does not necessarily mean all their emotions are callous. Psychopaths have a grandiose sense of self-worth. How come sociopaths (as I describe-caused by nurture) commit suicide? How come sociopaths harbor hostility towards society and the people that affected them during their life, whereas a psychopath only express cold anger/rage- a cold calculating mock of rage to get people to do what they want. Done mainly for show and to make themselves dominant over others. When a normal person, or maybe even a sociopath gets in a rage, it's because they're emotional. There has to be a difference between the two.

A Psychopath has lack of remorse because he's born that way. NATURE. I've read Robert Hare's book, and there's been cases where normal, healthy functioning families will spawn a psychopath, even when the kid hasn't had a lot of exposure to violence and his siblings are perfectly normal. Virtually everything a psychopath does is done to ultimately benefit himself and nobody else. Why then would a sociopath commit suicide? suicide is brought on by serious depression and lowered self-esteem. This article puts both sociopaths and psychopaths in the same category. Although the two are very similar in their symptoms, they are still different in there causes. I'm not an advocate for sociopaths, nor am I for the belief they can be cured. But I think sociopaths treated as separate from psychopaths and studied independently might give us a start. Who knows? If you stop playing guitar and put lotion on your fingertips everyday, eventually the callouses will go away, maybe it's possible to do the same with a sociopath's conscience, maybe not. Psychopaths on the other can never be cured. People born without arms can only put on fake ones. People born without consciences can only pretend they have one. The problem might not be with this article though, it might just be with Psychologists using the two terms interchangeably and being too lazy to come to a consensus and define the two terms separately for the public.

Just my two cents.

Freudian

Can the Freudian reference be removed, it is not valid or valuable in modern psychology. Freudian theory is out of place in serious discussion of psychological disorders. June 10 2005

I didn't read the Freudian definition, but this is technically an encyclopedia, not a serious discussion on psychological disorders. Besides which, it is always valuable as a means to psychoanalyze Freud, and the person who included it in the article. 24.22.227.53 04:10, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

Fictional Psychopaths need revision

The list of fictional psychopaths needs to be broken up. Alex ("A Clockwork Orange") is a relatively realistic portrayal of a psychopath (intelligent, impulsive, remorseless), while criminal masterminds like Hannibal Lecter are less so. Michael Myers ("Halloween") doesn't fit either definition. -- Unknown

Also, the article seems to jump from a decent description of APD to a list of psychopaths. Perhaps term consistency should be applied? -- Taral 18:12, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)

What about James Bond? Wouldn't he fit in? I know that the book and movie Bonds are different...

I think it is interesting in the American Psycho movie, where Bateman actually tries to warn some people about hanging out with him, as if he actually cares about them, but believes himself he cannot be held responsible for his actions.

Is Raskolnikov correct? From the Wikipedia article: "He murders a pawnbroker with an axe, with the intention of using her money for good causes and following his theory of a "superman" who is above morality. However, his plan goes wrong, and he kills the pawnbroker's sister to avoid detection. He finds only a little money, which he then hides. Tormented by guilt, he then suffers a mental collapse and confesses."

I thought about the Batman enemy "The Joker," but maybe he doesn't care THAT much about charms and his outer appearance... =S

APD poorly defined, like all psychology.

Call it partisan wrangling, but “occasionally this even leads to improvements in the article”, “So there's a fair degree of tolerance, and most Wikipedians succumb to a bit of wrangling from time to time”. There should be a section on all psychiatric pages in the Wiki that states the criticism the concept receives.

"Psychopath". "Hannibal Lecter". "Mass Murder". "Sniper Team with Transvestite Ghille". "Gay, Honorable Air Force Pilot Using Electronic Countermeasures". All psychopaths. The pilot uses "swarm" tactics, because he enters into territory that may contain the enemy, then shoots the enemy instinctively while calling in reinforcements, trying to survive. He never has to make much of a plan, "failing" to do so. His use of electronic countermeasures amounts to deceitfulness. He suffers from homosexuality, a mental illness, according to the World Health Organization (pre 1992).

The snipers have made a home for themselves underground, waiting patiently and justifiably months or even years for the target. The climate (both meteorologically and tactically) is extremely hostile. They work in shifts, and in a futile response to the boredom they wear "conventional" drag while not at the periscope, and then at the periscope, they wear preposterous pink, purple, and orange ghille. They cannot act on any plan they might make, so they "fail" to make one. Deceitfully, fake periscope lenses were airdropped all over the countryside.

Failure to conform to social norms or lawful behaviors: Homosexuality, transvestism.

Deceitfulness, as indicated by repeated lying, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure: Electronic countermeasures, underground chamber, airdropping periscope lenses.

Irresponsibility, impulsivity or failure to plan ahead: Never having to make much of a plan, "failing" to do so.

Irritability and “aggression” (meaning violence), as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults: Just war. Reckless disregard for safety of self or others: Just war with courage. Lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt or stolen from another: Just war.

-Anonymonster

Whoa. Does the text above strike anyone else as slightly strange? -- Anon 09:41, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)

It seems to me that the above is an argument for the natural evolution of APD as a survival strategy. -- Taral 18:19, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Well, first of all, I am Anonymonster; I made the comment.

Second, why is "slightly strange" in quotation marks in Anon's comment? My views do need lots of imagination to listen to, if that’s what you mean. Then there's nothing "slightly" strange about it. If you mean literal, specific logical fallacy, then please say what and where it is.

And to respond to Taral’s comment, the text should have been clearer. The text was not meant to say that APD is natural nor simply a survival strategy. It was meant to say that the way that the intuitive and literal concepts of “psychopath” relate is so … “hypocritical”, perhaps, that the relation is stretched beyond imagination. Wikipedia is not a soapbox of course. But if the concept is nonsensical beyond the point that it can be said to exist, there should at least be a Diagnostic Issues section.

Involuntary commitment with diagnostic issues like these ... now that is strange. Let’s see … maybe “psychopath” is just someone that a psychiatrist wants treated. Or maybe it’s something else. Remember, however far fetched, that propaganda lies never really make sense when used to cover something neither actually justified nor easily falsely justified. FET 05:08, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I think Anonymonster makes an interesting point, but I disagree with his/her analysis. The key concept here is the social frame of reference: a diagnosis of APD is fundamentally dependent on social context. If the behaviour of a person with APD is not transgressing social norms, it can hardly be called anti-"social" !

In combat, behaviours that could lead to a diagnosis of APD in civil society might well be lauded, even after the individual returns from the battlefield. Indeed, warriors who lie, cheat, kill and maim with gusto (assuming they successfully do this to the "enemy") have traditionally been held in high social regard, both during and after the conflict. Meanwhile, contemporaneous civilian murderers have been pursued to the full extent of the law (viz. WWII experience in London).

In a similar vein, higher-functioning individuals with APD can sometimes sublimate their drives in a commercial environment ("the corporate psychopath") to win great esteem and financial reward.

In neither of the above cases would a diagnosis of APD be "wrong", just irrelevant.

Well, it's not just hypocritical on immoral actions, but moral ones too.FET 01:22, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

So it's decided. "OK, that's it," as the expression goes, "I'm putting something into the article about cultural norms and mental illness."FET 22:05, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

But not without permission. See my talk page:FET 23:40, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Revocation of conditional release

"Revocation of conditional release"? What does this mean? -- Anon.

Ah. It's what Brits would call "breaching parole conditions". -- Anon.

Interesting to compare that list of symptoms with the Bush Administration.

Norman Bates (Psycho)

I have removed the entry:

• Norman Bates (Psycho)

The character of Norman Bates would appear to be psychotic rather than a psychopath. He shows some signs of guilt and appears to be responding to auditory hallucinations. I have added Chad from "In the Company of Men" as he is a consummate psychopath and is an excellent example of many of the features but particularly a lack of ordinary guilt. --CloudSurfer 18:50, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Well, in Bates discussions with his mother, he clearly seems to show reluctance against murder. (From http://www.imdb.com)

Norman Bates' Mother: No! I tell you no! I won't have you bringing some young girl in for supper! By candlelight, I suppose, in the cheap, erotic fashion of young men with cheap, erotic minds! Norman Bates: Mother, please...! Norman Bates' Mother: And then what? After supper? Music? Whispers? Norman Bates: Mother, she's just a stranger. She's hungry, and it's raining out! Norman Bates' Mother: "Mother, she's just a stranger"! As if men don't desire strangers! As if... ohh, I refuse to speak of disgusting things, because they disgust me! You understand, boy? Go on, go tell her she'll not be appeasing her ugly appetite with MY food... or my son! Or do I have tell her because you don't have the guts! Huh, boy? You have the guts, boy? Norman Bates: Shut up! Shut up!

Questionable statistic

"It is, however, true that 90% of serial killers are psychopaths."

Source??

Lt. Loren Singer -Psychopath?

I have been watching JAG since the beginning, and since Nanci Chambers was hired to portray Lt. Loren Singer, JAG USN; Please excuse me for not being a mental health professional, but she did not strike me as a "psychopath", merely a hard nosed _itchy female officer who was also a lawyer, who also happened to be in the Judge Advocate General's Corps of the US Navy...

Just my two cents worth

{Michael 02:49, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)}

Diagnostic criteria (PCL-R test)

In contemporary research and clinical practice, APD is most commonly assessed with the Hare Psychopathy Checklist- Revised (PCL-R), which is a clinical rating scale with 20 items. Each of the items in the PCL-R is scored on a three-point scale according to specific criteria through file information and a semi-structured interview. The items are as follows:

Interpersonal dimension

   * Glibness/superficial charm
   * Grandiose sense of self-worth
   * Pathological lying
   * Conning/manipulative
   * Lack of remorse or guilt
   * Shallow affect
   * Callous/lack of empathy
   * Failure to accept responsibility for own actions

Affective dimension

   * Need for stimulation/-proneness to boredom
   * Parasitic lifestyle
   * Poor behavioral controls
   * Early behavioral problems
   * Lack of realistic, long-term goals
   * Impulsivity
   * Irresponsibility
   * Juvenile delinquency
   * Revocation of conditional release

Is this correct ? Come on this describes 90% percent of the world's population.

or should I say U.S. citizens

Yes, it's correct, but what you consider to be impulsivity (for example) is not necessarily what a diagnostician is going to consider it to be (difference between impulsively buying a box of candy and impulsively buying a Lamborghini/big-screen TV when you need to borrow to do so) (IANADiag.). 24.22.227.53 04:38, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

Tom Ripley - Psychopath?

I wouldn't classify Tom Ripley as a psychopath...although he has some traits, he fails on:

1. Lack of remorse or guilt
2. Shallow affect
3. Callous/lack of empathy

Although I ain't no psychologist, these three seem necessary for someone to be classified a psychopath.

Kane, not a psychopath?

Just curious why Kane has been removed from the list of fictional psychopaths. In addition to being referred to as a psychopath on WWE Raw by many other characters, including the commentators, he seems to meet most of the PCL-R criteria (in fact, the only one he doesn't exhibit at all is "glibness/superficial charm"). I can understand Gene Snitsky being removed, since he hasn't really done a lot to show himself as a psychopath, but why Kane? --HBK 17:04, May 3, 2005 (UTC)

Kane has fond memories of being happy in a loveful childhood environment, this is incongruent to the usual interpretation of the mentality of the psychopath, who has no understanding of love as it is. Of course, that's what the shrinks say... And we all now how much THAT'S worth. Anyway, as far as current knowledge goes, Kane is no psychopath, just a mean CEO. --Stephan

Fictional Sociopaths

Gaz isn't a sociopath so I removed her. And why do you people keep talking about how intelligent and disciplined sociopaths are, when that isn't the case. They're disorganized and possess a deficient ability to plan or perceive the future. I don't think that many of those names really fit, but I'm not familiar enough with the works they came from so I can't remove them.

One other thing, all the headings that say "Psychopath" should probably be rewritten "Sociopath," and rewritten to fit that definition.

From the article:

Psychopaths in popular fiction and movies generally possess a number of standard characteristics which are not necessarily as common amongst real-life psychopaths... an individual with APD is much more likely to be impulsive, disorganized and short-tempered rather than the smooth-talking, self-disciplined character portrayed by Anthony Hopkins or Kiefer Sutherland.

In other words, you're absolutely right, sociopaths aren't disciplined, and the article already states it. But the general Hollywood portrayal of a sociopath is disciplined, and the article mentions that as well, since it is a heading on Fictional sociopaths, after all. --HBK 15:20, May 12, 2005 (UTC)

Noting possible changes that might want to be reversed

On 20 May 2005, User:212.56.128.186 deleted a lot of information from this article. I have no way of knowing if this was a good decision, however, I observe that a chunk of it (sections Examples of sociopaths in television and onwards) were put back later, and noted as correcting vandalism.

For example: Current content Antisocial personality disorder (APD) is a personality disorder which is often characterized by antisocial and impulsive behaviour. APD is generally (if controversially) considered to be the same as, or similar to, the disorder that was previously known as psychopathic or sociopathic personality disorder.

Deleted at the end of that paragraph was Approximately 3% of men and 1% of women have some form of antisocial personality disorder (source: DSM-IV).

A number of other changes were made, some mystifying, but it is too late to simply revert as other changes have followed.

Someone who knows something about this subject might like to check the history (difference link: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Antisocial_personality_disorder&diff=13998851&oldid=13968240) Notinasnaid 17:47, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

As 212.56.128.186 said in another article [1]. Too bad that several editors did not spot it. I am reving back to the last by Stevertigo. Meggar 00:27, 2005 May 27 (UTC)

Lists of fictional and famous sociopaths: Original research?

The article contains lists of people and fictional characters who are allegedly sociopaths. The lists appear to be based on the opinions of contributors. I think this is original research, which doesn't belong in Wikipedia. Classifying people as sociopath is pretty subjective if the criteria are vague, especially in the case of fictional characters. For example, whether Patrick Bateman (in American Psycho) is a sociopath depends, among other things, on the accuracy of his own descriptions: has he really committed the murders he describes or is it just fantasy? Both interpretations are compatible with the novel, so whether the text indicates that Bateman is (potentially) a sociopath or not is a matter of opinion.

I think both lists are inherently POV, unless we change it to something like People diagnosed with ASPD and then provide references for all entries to a source that mentions the diagnosis by a psychologist/psychiatrist. I would like to hear what other people think about this. If no one objects, I'll remove the lists in a week or so. Sietse 10:43, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

PCL-R

seems wrong that initial use of this abbre viation is well before definition

I agree. Abbreviations and/or acronyms should not precede their referent.--12.203.233.125 11:26, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

bullshit squared

this constructed 'pathology' is pretty much word by word the ethics of the german Nazis. And the Soviet Union also had almost the same provisions for social control, formulated as psychiatric diagnoses. I really really hope you americans have not yet sunk to this level, as to accept such hokey nonsense for real science. It's science imitation intended to impress TV-watchers, thats what it is. Viande hachée

Besides some of their more noxious social programs, inhumane treatment of others and domineering political regimes, what was so wrong with the Nazis and Soviets? 24.22.227.53 07:17, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

Dr. Hare is a Canadian, the ICD is primarily European, the DSM is USAian. 24.22.227.53 07:19, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

comments on the intro

Article begins "Antisocial personality disorder (APD), or dissocial personality disorder, is a personality disorder which is often characterized by antisocial and impulsive behaviour." Considering that the DSM has specific criteria for the definition of antisocial personality disorder, it would be better state this instead of using a vague "often characterized by" construction. This definition of APD also refutes another criticism offered in the intro. ("Both of these tests depend upon the person in question being a criminal or having participated in criminal activities.") No such requirement is stated in the diagnostic criteria, although repeatedly "performing acts that are grounds for arrest" is one of the several possible criteria (of which three must met) for the diagnosis.

I think beginning the article with the concise DSM criteria would work fine: "...defines antisocial personality disorder as a pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others occurring since age 15 years, as indicated by three (or more) of the following...." From there it would be logical to move to the Hare Psychopathy Checklist- Revised (PCL-R). --BAW 11:47, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

Sociopath/Psychopath

Differentiate between the two. (ie. the profound base personality differences between Gacy (in the enneagram personality system an 8 / extroverted Sensate, Jungian / PCL-R Factor 2 (mostly)? / "Disorganized Episodic Aggression") and Bundy (in the enneagram personality system a 3 / most likely ISFP[Fi] in most Jungian derivatives -- though this is technically inaccurate / PCL-R Factor 1 (though some similarities between the two types exist, thus leading to the ability to heterogenize the two criteria) / "Organized Sociopathic Hatred"). Though I'll leave this to the professional pathologists to do (at least to do and write about it). 24.22.227.53 04:33, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

In the case of Bundy: Adaptive Psychopathy seems to fit.

Osama bin Laden: dyssocial Sociopathy

I wouldn't say Bin Laden is any more a psychopath than George Washington was... Who also killed an awful lot of people for something he believed in. He may not be comprehensible by our standards, but that doesn't make him a psychopath per se. --Stephan

Portrayals of Psychopaths in the media

"Don Logan (Ben Kingsley in Sexy Beast), Doyle Hargrave (Dwight Yoakam in "Sling Blade"), and Frank Booth (Dennis Hopper in Blue Velvet), all of whom are crude, impulsive characters who relentlessly torment other people, the former of whom fails to foresee the consequences of his actions."

The bolded character was added in an edit, along with the bolded phrase. Is this accurate as it stands (disregarding whether or not these characters meet the technical requirements for psychopathy (a 30 on the Hare list, or whatever criteria in a psychopathy DSM or ICD checklist)), is the first or middle character the one to whom the phrase applies? I have insufficient knowledge of these movies to know. 24.22.227.53 02:44, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

Historical Psychopathy

and sociopathy and ASPD, etc... A new section for this material, or continue to intersperse it throughout the article?

Sam Vaknin is NOT an expert

If you are using Sam Vaknin as an expert opinion, you need to remove him. He is not a PhD in psychology, he is a PhD in Philosophy, and, according to his CV, he is "Certified" in Psychological Counselling Techniques by Brainbench, the online certification mill. Brainbench http://www.brainbench.com/brainbench/t1.jsp?core=/vtc/cert/viewtestdetail.jsp&BACK=1&TID=4389258&PID=781937

His complete CV can be found as per below:

http://www.geocities.com/vaksam/cv.html

Please DO NOT list him as an expert reference. His book is full of misrepresentations about any kind of psychological disorder, and no wonder. He has not got any professional background whatsoever in psychiatry and is a self-proclaimed narcissistic personality disordered individual who has used his disorder to make a great deal of money for himself. He is currently a financial analyst, and his websites are, for the most part, financial analyst websites. He is misleading hundreds of people daily with his website and his books, which the APA ought to complain about.

Thank you. 00:57, 6 November 2005 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 142.151.143.157 (talk • contribs) .

Now hold on a minute here

Why does the the word 'antisocial' redirect to the psychiatric diagnosis? Wikipedia isn't a medical or psychiatric journal; the common term 'antisocial' doesn't refer to psychopathy, sociopathy, or 'social anxiety disorder'. For instance, I might choose not to be social with specific people or groups, or at specific places (with that mean bastard next door; with neoconservatives; at the local bar), and hence be antisocial towards them. But that does not mean I have 'social anxiety' towards those situations. I might be perfectly confident about going to a party where I know some mean bastard will be present; but choose not go there because of the mean bastard. On the other hand, why should my disinclination to socialize (for example) with mean bastards, neoconservatives, or, at the local bar, imply that I have a disorder? oneismany 16:13, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps I have perfectly good reasons for being antisocial which doesn't involve any disorder. My self-respect might prohibit me from talking to, or having drinks with, that asshole who was flicking me in the ear during high school. My sense of social justice might prohibit me from joining any clubs or organizations that advocate invading foreign countries. My taste in alcohol, or my level of income, might prohibit me from having beers at the local bar (or pub). Or perhaps I regard 'polite society' with dismay because the conversation is very dull. Now, what about that makes me 'disordered'? Personally I would rather regard mean bastards as having Mean Bastard Disorder; neocons as having Political Chauvanism Disorder; that dingy local bar as having Dingy Local Bar Disorder. oneismany 16:13, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Shouldn't a term that uses the word 'social', somewhere define what 'social' means? I realize this would be asking much from psychiatry, which engages in the practice of diagnosing 'disorders' without mentioning what is 'ordered' or 'normal.' But here on Wikipedia, we can conveniently ignore the authoritative definitions of things in favor of consensual definitions. In ordinary language 'social' and 'antisocial' refer to habits of conduct, which might be natural variations of personal preference and not symptoms of personality deficiencies. Please restrict the article on 'ADP' to the topic of the psychiatric diagnosis, and permit topics on the variations of personal preference to have their own articles. oneismany 16:13, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

you are confusing the word social and sociable. Not associating with someone because you don't like then does not mean you have antisocial personality disorder. You are just not being sociable with them.

But the reverse of sociable is unsociable, not antisociable. Perhaps 'unsociable' is a better term than 'antisocial' for the inclination against socializing, but 'antisociable' or 'asociable' also sound like better terms for pathological unsociability. 'Social' is a vague term, but 'sociability' is much better defined, or so it seems to me. oneismany 09:02, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Antisocial vs asocial

I think there's confusion here between the concept of antisocial, which means a person acts against society, and asocial, where the person is more of a loner. Also if the link from this page to the social anxiety page is because of the confusion between antisocial and asocial, then wouldn't schizoid be a better example of a asocial type of disorder. An antisocial person lacks things such as empathy or morals, and a schizoid lacks the need for socialization. Someone with social anxiety disorder may very well have a "normal" need and desire for human interaction, but has trouble in interacting with people as others "normally" do. Their isolation isn't so much a extention of their personality as it is an unusually powerful emotion, or line of though infringing on their perceptions. An antisocial person seemingly has no struggle with themselves to behave antisocially, it is thought to come much more naturally. It's not that some recurent though or mood makes moral action difficult, it's that they the desire to act so isn't even present. They act so because it is an extention of their personality. At least I think that's how it might work172.190.214.17 18:30, 9 December 2005 (UTC)SDF

Marriage to an APD... Any Questions?

Hello Everyone!

My name is Paul Hruza and I have written this short note to express myself as one who was married to a woman with Antisocial Personality Disorder. I tried desperately for 6 years of marriage, and now 3 years after the divorce to get inside this person's mind and heart and understand her, but to no avail. She lied and cheated on her first husband with me (with whom she had two children) after 5 years (and boy do I REGRET it!), lied and cheated on me after 6 years of marriage (with her latest husband), and has now left him TEN TIMES in their brief 3 year marriage to travel from Yokota AFB, Japan, back to Panama City, Florida. The first time she returned was 45 days after their "marriage". She even went as far as denying she was married to him at all, to her family members, children and I...

When she finally divorced me I decided I needed to make sure I was "OK" mentally and spent many hours with a good psychologist. Discussions of my relationship with this person revealed a diagnosis of APD. The psychologist told me I should be awarded a medal for having lasted as long as I did with this person. I refused to believe it at first but after spending a few hours on the internet studing this disorder I saw the truth. I sat there with tears running down my face reading my exwife's "diary"! She fills all the squares for this disorder except for two. She has never been in trouble with the law, being much to cunning for that (not so much as a speeding ticket), nor does she do drugs. She will have the occasional alcoholic beverage. Two at most in any setting. Beyond this, she fills all the squares.

My relationship with her was "fairly stable" until the decision was made (by her) to send the children to live with their father in Utah. Once the responsibility of raising the kids was gone that was it, "All Hell Broke Loose". It was as though she fell off a cliff and was free to manipulate anyone and anything in her way.

I guess I am amazed by the amount of lies she is capable of without so much as a blink of the eye. There have been hundreds of them, more likely thousands. She has lied to all her husbands, friends, family, even her own children! Her sense of cunning and deceitfulness is unbelieveable. I have only actually witnessed her shed a tear three times in 13 years of knowing her. She truely has no heart whatsoever... As of today's date (02/15/06) she is 40 years old, $7000 in debt, has no career (she has quit 7 jobs in Japan to run back here to Florida), and currently owns six boxes of clothes that have been shipped back and forth. I think her current husband must fall into the "Codependent" category since he has taken her back each and every time.

Each time she leaves she will contact me one way or the other and evetually decide that she does not want to be with this "husband" of hers and promises to get a divorce and remain with me... And, after a few weeks or months, "disappears into the night" when I am not at home. She will not face him nor I when it comes time to leave, she prefers sneaking out when you aren't looking (more deceitfullness). I could go on and on about the situation but would rather end this discussion here and offer my experiences to anyone would may have the need to discuss what it's like to have someone like this in your life for such a long period of time. Please feel free to contact me if you would like to learn more. My email is paul.hruza61@knology.net I hope this helps someone, somewhere.... Thanks!

Paul —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 131.55.121.8 (talk • contribs).

I'm sorry Paul someone close to me was a sociopath too —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.162.100.87 (talk • contribs).

Am I reading East of Eden here?70.132.31.72 02:43, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

re Marriage to an APD... Any Questions?

The above labeled section contains lots of personally identifying information about someone who has received a third-hand ex-husband's therapists "diagnosis." It seems that wikipedia might be liable for the possibly defamatory and unsourced comments here. I would think that at the least all identifying information (last names, locations) about this person who probably does not know they are being attacked here should be removed.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.0.19.85 (talk • contribs)

Marriage to an APD Answer...

I do not consider speaking the truth an "attack", nor is my purpose here to slander anyone in any way. Yes, the diagnosis was via third party. If you study this disorder thoroughly you will find that almost all APDs are diagnosed this way since they never feel there is anything wrong with them (part of the disorder) so they rarely seek treatment on their own. I would also gladly give my psychologist' name and the permission to review my personal records to anyone who asked. I am quite sure she would stand by her diagnosis!! I have, however, removed her latest husband's name... Thanks! Paul —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.55.121.8 (talk • contribs)