Talk:Antiochia ad Taurum

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Antiochia ad Taurum, Syria not Commagene

I have been studying Antiochia ad Taurum recently and have determined in antiquity it likely belonged to Syria not the Kingdom of Commagene as listed. The source of the identification as within the Kingdom of Commagene identifies Antiochia ad Taurum as "ad Taumm, a town of Commagene, Syr., under Amanus." This contradicts "Commagene has been characterized as a "buffer state" between Armenia, Parthia, Syria, and Rome." My logic is that Antiochia ad Taurum is either Commagene or Syria and can't be both.

Using the map of Commagene from 50 AD that is linked to this wikipage for Antiochia ad Taurum and Google Earth I was able to confirm that Antiochia ad Taurum was not located in the Kingdom of Commagene circa 50 AD, but in Syria as on the same map assuming the correct identification of Gaziantep as the ancient city of Antiochia ad Taurum. The ancient city of Dolice located on the map of the Kingdom of Commagene is the modern Dülük (Armenian: Տլուք, romanized: Tlukʿ) that is about 10 kms north of present-day Gaziantep that is identified as the ancient location of Antiochia ad Taurum.

See map referenced here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Commagene#/media/File:Roman_East_50_CE_Commagene_highlighted-en.svg

Also, a more accurate translation of the name Antiochia ad Taurum following the Latin usage of "ad" should be "to/towards" meaning "near" or "at" the Taurus, and not "in the Taurus." Thus, the natural English translation should read as "Antiochia near the Taurus."

Antiochia ad Taurum was likely one of the 16 cities Seleucus I Nicator founded and named in honor of his father Antiochus.

Conclusion: This places Antiochia ad Taurum in ancient Syria and not in the Kingdom of Commagene.

Recommendation for this text to be added and the existing text to be edited as follows:

"Antiochia ad Taurum (Ancient Greek: Ἀντιόχεια τοῦ Ταύρου; "Antiochia near the Taurus") was an ancient Hellenistic city founded by the Seleucid Empire in the region of Syria, just south of the Taurus Mountains of Cilicia (later Commagene province), Anatolia. Antiochia ad Taurum was likely one of the 16 cities Seleucus I Nicator founded and named in honor of his father Antiochus.

BiblicalArchaeologist (talk) 22:20, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

Hi, BiblicalArchaeologist, you'll need to provide reliable sources that support the text that you want to add. No Wikipedia article (or Wikitionary entry) can be cited. Keep in mind that original research isn't permitted. Articles should only summarize what reliable, independent sources state. I hope that helps. Schazjmd (talk) 22:49, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

Hi Schazjmd great help, thanks! Is the source cited in the existing article not sufficient? It states "ad Taumm, a town of Commagene, Syria, under Amanus"? This is source [1] in the current article . The source under [1] identifies it as BOTH Commagene and Syria. The identification with BOTH Commagene and Syria is also supported by [6] in the current article . The cited reference [1] in the article does not support the identification with Cilicia, nor Anatolia, nor the Taurus Mountains. Adding no new sources at a minimum then it should be edited as follows using those sources and a literal translation of the Latin and Greek text: "Antiochia ad Taurum (Ancient Greek: Ἀντιόχεια τοῦ Ταύρου; "Antiochia of Taurus") was an ancient Hellenistic city in Syria, and later the Commagene province, under Mount Amanus." BiblicalArchaeologist (talk) 23:45, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

Amanus Mountains (old name of today's Nur Mountains) Antioch (labeled), Antiochia ad Taurum (not labeled)

:Also, Schazjmd the reference in the cited source [1] "under Amanus" in the current article is in reference to the mountain range that further helps understand this is in Syria, and not Commagene, thus "under Amanus" could also be added to the article using the existing source. Advice? Can this illustration be added to the article even though it does not locate Antiochia ad Taurum as I've labeled it here? Thanks. BiblicalArchaeologist (talk) 23:45, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

BiblicalArchaeologist, hopefully editors familiar with this content area are watching and will help answer your follow-up questions. I was only speaking to your original question, which relied almost entirely at the time on Wikipedia and Wiktionary and included language like "I have determined", "my logic", and "I was able to confirm", so I was able to point out the need for non-Wiki sources and an avoidance of original research without knowing anything about the topic. Your post at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Classical Greece and Rome will hopefully get other editors here to respond. (Just as a note, administrators have no authority over content. You just want consensus from other editors for your changes.) Schazjmd (talk) 00:03, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

Schazjmd ok, thanks for the help. Hopefully editors at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Classical Greece and Rome will respond to get some consensus on this with some experienced editing and expertise in the Hellenistic and Roman periods. BiblicalArchaeologist (talk) 02:03, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

References