Talk:Andriy Biletsky

Quotes from copyrighted sources

I've never encountered such an extreme overuse of quotes from sources used as 'notes'. They're longer than the article itself! Not only are they extraneous, but are copyright violations from cherry picked sources.

Bear in mind, also, that this is a WP:BLP, therefore huge tracts taken from a small number of 'experts' is WP:UNDUE. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 05:35, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

Oh yes, the quotes of enormous length hidden as footnotes should be removed. Done. My very best wishes (talk) 04:42, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

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“In October 2016 Biletsky official left the Ukrainian military”

I can’t find this information in the cited source. As far as I can tell, he was replaced as commander in October 2014, and would have been obligated to quit the National Guard at the same time to run for office. Is there evidence he remained in the regiment after that? —Michael Z. 14:43, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

Okay, I have found “Хоча офіційно Білецький зараз не має стосунку до військової служби. Як він повідомив "УП", днями нардеп розірвав контракт з Нацгвардією, оскільки закон забороняє військовослужбовцям мати партійність: "У мене така можливість (розірвати контракт – УП) була давно через контузію, але тільки зараз я нею скористався,” in the article dated October 18, 2016. —Michael Z. 21:35, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

[Dispute]Political Views - Neo Nazi quotes not actually based in fact?

-34 and #35 quotations from this page are either misleading, or unsourced themselves.

-34: In the Andriy Biletsky wikipedia page it states:

"The goals of the "Social-National Assembly", that he co-founded, are "the protection of the white race by creating an anti-democratic and anti-capitalist "nationocracy" system" and the eradication of "international Zionist speculative capital""

However the article it quotes from (#34) https://www.bbcrussian.com/russian/international/2014/07/140716_ukraine_swedish_sniper doesnt even translate to what the statement says.

-35: In the Andriy Biletsky wikipedia page it states:

"In 2010, Biletsky said that it was the Ukrainian nation's mission to "lead the white races of the world in a final crusade … against Semite-led Untermenschen""

However the article it quotes from (#35) https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/13/ukraine-far-right-national-militia-takes-law-into-own-hands-neo-nazi-links doesn't actually have a documented way this statement was communicated it states: "the former Azov battalion commander declared in 2010 that the Ukrainian nation’s mission was to “lead the white races of the world in a final crusade … against Semite-led Untermenschen [subhumans]”."

hasn't been confirmed by any other sources. The writer only writes that he "declared in 2010" without any further citation. Can we get a fact check on this quote? Because he has since denied it. If there is no evidence of it then this should be removed as it is only a baseless smear instead of a real actual thing.

Source 34 indeed says, "Белецкий руководит также Социал-национальной ассамблеей, цели и задачи которой каждый желающий может найти в интернете. Основная мысль – защита белой расы путем создания антидемократического и антикапиталистического строя "нациократии". Одна из задач – искоренение "интернационально-сионистского спекулятивного капитала". Это – типичные лозунги неонацистов.". This is exactly what WP article says. Seryo93 (talk) 18:15, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

Ok, thank you, I will do some more research and see if I can verify the original statements from the the Social Nationalist Assembly Jasonfreedmancode (talk) 20:59, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

That was not his view or statement, but about an organization. Hence belongs to page about the organization. Saying that, a quotation of his own words by Guardian does show he is a Neo-Nazi. He denied that, but it is reliably sourced (to Guardian), so it should remain on the page with proper attribution. My very best wishes (talk) 00:24, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

I have seen a number discussions about him over years identified as a Neo Nazi and am surprised to see the removal of references to his Neo Nazi associations or to the fact he's at least been identified as such in multiple major media articles (not just the one Guardian one) which normally would play some role in a section about controversial aspects -- people who have had much less controversial associations have had "controversy" sections shoehorned in at times.

In this Biletsky topic, see for more on the Untermenschen quote -- https://time.com/5926750/azov-far-right-movement-facebook/ -

"Ukrainian police had long treated his organization, Patriot of Ukraine, as a neo-Nazi terrorist group. Biletsky’s nickname within the group was Bely Vozhd, or White Ruler, and his manifesto seemed to pluck its narrative straight from Nazi ideology. Ukrainian nationalists, it said, must 'lead the white nations of the world in a final crusade for their survival, a crusade against the Semite-led Untermenschen,' a German term for 'subhumans' with roots in Nazi propaganda.

Within days of his release, Biletsky set out to assemble a far-right militia. 'That was our rise to the surface after a long period underground,' Biletsky told TIME in an interview that winter in Ukraine. The insignia he chose for the militia combined two symbols—the 'black sun' and the 'wolf’s hook'—both of which were used by the German Nazis during World War II."

--These descriptions have been echoed in Time, BBC, and many other major media up until the past two months. Good luck figuring the editing out.

Emerman (talk) 22:35, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

"White Nationalist" is inaccurate, should be removed.

He is a Ukrainian Nationalist, virulently anti-Russian and Polish, both of whom are "White" by American standards, but Ukrainian Nationalism and Nazism, an ideology to which he and Azov ascribe, do not recognize nor promote "White" nationalism. the term simply means nothing in the context of Ukrainian Nationalism or Nazism. Jaygo113 (talk) 01:13, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

It is best to not accidentally whitewash something out of personal wishes that it were otherwise on a topic that's already in public in several articles and stick to what articles say. He's been described in articles as a "white supremacist." Example from FactCheck dot org from Annenberg Public Policy Center of the University of Pennsylvania: https://www.factcheck.org/2022/03/the-facts-on-de-nazifying-ukraine/ "The Facts on ‘De-Nazifying’ Ukraine" -- a sentence in it says:

"One of the volunteer paramilitary regiments at the forefront of the battle with Russian separatists in eastern Ukraine was a group called the Azov battalion, which was founded by members of two neo-Nazi groups. One of the group’s organizers, Andriy Biletsky, is a white supremacist, who in 2014 wrote, “The historic mission of our nation in this critical moment is to lead the White Races of the world in a final crusade for their survival. A crusade against the Semite-led Untermenschen.” Emerman (talk) 01:21, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

Literally, the head of Azov, Biletsky, said that Ukraine's national purpose was to "lead the white races of the world in a final crusade... against Semite-led Untermenschen"[1]. And Time, for example, labeled this documentary about Azov: "Inside A White Supremacist Militia in Ukraine"[2] Mhorg (talk) 01:22, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

it cannot be Nazism and White Nationalist at the same time. Nazism is inherantly anti- many forms of White Nationalism. Polish nationalism is White Nationalism. Nazism intended to eliminate the Polish Nation. they are mutually exclusive. "lead the white races of the world in a final crusade... against Semite-led Untermenschen" thats not nationalism. thats internationalism, as it involves all Non-Ukrainians percieved to be Whites. like Russians, and Anti-Russian Sentiment is a key cog in their Ideology. Jaygo113 (talk) 01:54, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

Then it should be what the articles say which is Neo Nazi and white supremacist. Whoever keeps trying to shoehorn into the article the somehow more palatable "nationalism" verbiage is white washing. Emerman (talk) 01:57, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

White nationalism is a type of racial nationalism or pan-nationalism which espouses the belief that white people are a race

[1] Heidi Beirich and Kevin Hicks. "Chapter 7: White nationalism in America". In Perry, Barbara. Hate Crimes. Greenwood Publishing, 2009. pp.114–115]

and seeks to develop and maintain a white racial and national identity.

[2] Conversi, Daniele (July 2004). "Can nationalism studies and ethnic/racial studies be brought together?". Journal of Ethnic and Migration Studies. 30 (4): 815–29. doi:10.1080/13691830410001699649. S2CID 143586644.

[3] Heidi Beirich and Kevin Hicks. "Chapter 7: White Nationalism in America". In Perry, Barbara. Hate Crimes. Greenwood Publishing, 2009. p.119. "One of the primary political goals of white nationalism is to forge a white identity".

[4] https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/22/world/americas/white-nationalism-explained.html?_r=0

Nazism emphasised German nationalism, including both irredentism and expansionism. Nazism held racial theories based upon a belief in the existence of an Aryan master race that was superior to all other races. The Nazis emphasised the existence of racial conflict between the Aryan race and others—particularly Jews, whom the Nazis viewed as a mixed race that had infiltrated multiple societies and was responsible for exploitation and repression of the Aryan race. The Nazis also categorised Slavs as Untermensch (sub-human).[142]

Ukrainians (Ukrainian: Українці, romanized: Ukraintsi, pronounced [ʊkrɐˈjinʲts⁽ʲ⁾i]), or the Ukrainian people,

[45] http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ukrainians?show=0&t=1293151953

are an East Slavic ethnic group native to Ukraine. They are the seventh-largest

[46] http://worldpopulationreview.com/continents/europe-population/

nation in Europe and the second-largest among the East Slavs after the Russians.

Nazism considered Slavs to be sub-human. Ukrainians are Slavs. Ukrainian Nationalism and Nazism cannot coexist. and since Ukrainian Nationalism is a form of White Nationalism, then White Nationalism and Nazism are not interchangeable terms. They are mutually exclusive. Jaygo113 (talk) 02:07, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

No matter how many different ways you try to change the subject, he is identified as a White Supremacist and Neo Nazi in a number of articles, as are the Azov Battalion for reasons of saying he wants Ukraine to lead a "crusade against the Semite-led Untermenschen." The fact he has said this and is identified as this has nothing to do with Russia, Putin, or Zelensky. It is about Biletsky long prior to this war. You can keep trying to distract people with irrelevant definitions but the articles identifying what he has said and believes have not been used by you in your quotations that are not on point. It is only recently that the whitewashing (see meaning is not about white nationalism: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/whitewash -- as in covering up something unpleasant such as by means of a perfunctory investigation or through biased presentation of data) has been sought by his and the Azov image control folks once this war started and they sought support for money donations and arms from nations like the US. Emerman (talk) 02:19, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

Former white nationalist

All the sources that describe him a "white supremacist far-right politician" are quite old and he has since rescinded publicly his previous views, which is also referenced in the article. Since he no longer promotes any such views and states nothing of the kind any longer, I have added the description "former". I am also not sure if he still even leads the party or serves any political function, this needs to be checked and updated accordingly. Abcmaxx (talk) 23:51, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

No, we have a source for that part. No need to change the whole story because Ukraine and Russia are at war. Mhorg (talk) 00:00, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

@Mhorg: yes and that source is from 2014, whereas we also have sources from 2015 and 2019 respectively saying that he renounced this position. The war has nothing to do with this. People change political views, especially from radical ones over time. Abcmaxx (talk) 00:04, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

Yes, it is called "whitewashing": "In 2020 soldiers from the regiment appeared together with leaders of the "National Corps" political party in a video ad for a rally, and that a 2017 YouTube video appeared to show the émigré Russian neo-Nazi Alexey Levkin giving a lecture to the regiment"[3] Mhorg (talk) 00:13, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

Isn't it kind of WP:MANDY to rely on him denying being a white supremacist? Also, in terms of a more recent source describing him as a white supremacist, see [4], "It was organised by Andriy Biletsky, a white supermacist [sic] former football hooligan associated with the FC Metalist Kharkiv ultras, known as Sect 82, who went on help lead the Patriot of Ukraine and Social National Assembly far-right groups." or [5]: "...the Azov battalion, which was founded by members of two neo-Nazi groups. One of the group's organizers, Andriy Biletsky, is a white supremacist." or [6]: "Its founder Andriy Biletsky, is an avowed white supremacist". Given all that, I think it's fair to keep that part of the intro as just "white supremacist."

On another note: where has he rescinded publicly his previous views? He's denied having said some things, as mentioned in this article that also describes him as a white supremacist and neo-Nazi [7], and has denied being a racist anti-Semite [8], but, again, WP:MANDY, that does not mean he is not a racist anti-Semite. Denying that you are a white supremacist or neo-Nazi does not equal repudiating white supremacist or neo-Nazi views. The sentences "Furthermore, Biletsky declares that he is not racist or antisemitic. In an interview he explained that he regards Israel and Japan as role models for the development of Ukraine." should probably be removed from the article then, no? And shouldn't the "former" in the lede thus be removed?

Finally, time having passed since he was described as a white supremacist does not mean that the description is no longer valid. In fact, I would argue that the description does not go far enough: given the preponderance of sources describing him as a neo-Nazi, shouldn't he also be described this way in the lede? [9] [10] [11] [12] Lkb335 (talk) 23:03, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Done, lede restored. Yes, I think there are enough sources to simply call him "white supremacist neo-Nazi". Mhorg (talk) 23:17, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

While I agree that the edit Mhorg just made is likely correct, I'm noting for the record that three editors does not a consensus make; Abcmaxx, if you still disagree with describing Biletsky as a white supremacist, then perhaps we should open this up to a request for comment. Lkb335 (talk) 23:27, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Also noting that the sources I provided above for Biletsky being labeled a neo-Nazi are likely not sufficient for such a claim; more sources are required, particularly reliable ones, as 9 and 10 are not from a reliable source (required for a biography of living persons article, and one could make the argument that 11 and 12 do not actually call him a neo-Nazi, though I would disagree with that assessment. Lkb335 (talk) 23:30, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

What you have just posted doesn't mention Biletsky does it though? Abcmaxx (talk) 00:18, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

It is literally the party that Biletsky leads. So, yes, he is a white nationalist, right now, according to what we see. Mhorg (talk) 00:29, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

No, that's WP:SYNTH. It says that Alexey Levkin is a "émigré Russian neo-Nazi", nothing about the party or Biletsky being as such. According to the sources Biletsky was described as a white supremacist in 2014 and has since changed his rhetoric, as per the sources. Abcmaxx (talk) 08:51, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

YouTube is not a reliable source anyway Abcmaxx (talk) 08:54, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

Oleksy Kuzmenko\Atlantic Council are RS Mhorg (talk) 09:05, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

All the sources just quote him that one time from 2010. Nearly all the sources are from 10 to 6 years old. We should be careful to label whoever as a white supremacist. The Metro article I'm sorry but it just isn't very good in general. The other as I said, do not even mention him. Aside from that one quote is there any proof of him being a white supremacist? Otherwise it is just jumping to conclusions on the back of some questionable journalism. Abcmaxx (talk) 17:36, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

At this point, it seems unlikely that any of us involved in this discussion will change our minds. Mhorg and I believe that enough high-quality sources (BBC, Metro, The Independent) describe Biletsky as a white supremacist that the label is warranted; you believe the sources we have provided are not of high enough quality to support this claim, are too old, and focus on one single incident. All of us are entitled to those opinions. Getting more eyes on this discussion would probably be a good thing, as I see no other way in which this will be resolved. As I suggested earlier, let's open this up to a request for comment. Lkb335 (talk) 17:50, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

RfC on Labeling Biletsky a White Supremacist

Should Andriy Biletsky be described as a white supremacist in the article's lede and "Political views" section? Lkb335 (talk) 18:04, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

Yes as proposer: I believe the sources we have currently in the article ([13] [14] [15]) are of high enough quality to merit the description, and Biletsky's statements that he is not a white supremacist are not evidence of him not being one. I think the fact that he advocated leading a crusade against "untermenschen" makes the label warranted, regardless of that incident's age. For more of my thoughts, see the discussion immediately above this one.

Also: this is my first RFC. Apologies if I've messed any of this up. Lkb335 (talk) 18:11, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

@Lkb335: Metro is an unreliable source per WP:RSP. You’ve rejected one direct statement, but based your argument on an inference from another one: this logic seems self-contradictory. Would’ve been better off just citing BBC and the Independent. —Michael Z. 21:17, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

Apologies, was not aware of the ruling on Metro's quality. My bad. As per rejecting one direct statement and accepting another, I'll admit that I trust more the newspapers descriptions of Biletsky as a white supremacist than the subject's own denials; after all, he would say that, wouldn't he? I'm aware Mandy is not policy, but I find it a very convincing argument.

An additional question: would it not make sense for the lede to then follow the format of, say, the article on Nick Fuentes, or other figures who deny being white supremacists and yet are described that way? Honest question, not sure what the usual format is in this case. Should the lede say something like "X has been accused of being a white supremacist by Y, though X denies the label."? Or would it be better to leave it out from the lede altogether, as has been suggested by Xenophore below, and list the accusations only in the Political views section? Lkb335 (talk) 21:24, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

Is it possible he has changed his views? I know some will be very skeptical, but there are prominent political scientists like Vyacheslav Likhachev who seem to think most far right politicians in ukraine have moderated their views. Here is a mediazona interview: https://zona.media/translate/2022/03/29/likhachev

(Likhachev writes Freedom House's Ukraine far right assessments and is extensively quoted in some sources, for example, Oxford Handbook on the Radical Right's chapter on Ukraine.

I'll have to think about the Nick Fuentes case, myself. Cononsense (talk) 01:28, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

Here are a couple more sources that suggest that Biletsky may have changed: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/nationalities-papers/article/between-frontline-and-parliament-ukrainian-political-parties-and-irregular-armed-groups-in-20142019/90BAFE7AA179511DA2B58240D943D8C4, a 2021 paper by Fedorenko & Umland (who previously called him a biological racist), which says "Bilets’kyy still publicly opposes multiculturalism, but he admits that "to be a Ukrainian nationalist today is to believe in values, not racial prejudice,” and announced that his new party does not use an ethnic criterion to define who can and cannot be part of the Ukrainian nation".

And this report from Reporting Radicalism, an initiative by Freedom House: https://reportingradicalism.org/en/dossiers/people/andrii-biletskyi-head-of-the-national-corps-party, which says, "Biletskyi has not made any public racist remarks since 2014". Tristario (talk) 00:37, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose whilst his 2010 quote is very much unflattering to say the least, one sentence does not a supremacist make, especially as I cannot see anything else that he has alleged to have done that would support this. I would also add far-right ≠ white supremacist however extreme his views may be otherwise. Also WP:MANDY is an essay not a policy nor a guideline. The sources aren't academic and base this label solely on that one quote and him being a leader of a far-right party.Abcmaxx (talk) 19:04, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose Ledes should contain objective facts. The article states later that some publications have called him a white supremacist and that should be sufficient. I'm also concerned about using terms that may mean one thing in the societies in which we exist and attempting to overlay them on other societies as we often do, for example, when we try to apply modern values to earlier cultures. To whom, for example, does the term "untermenschen" apply here? In previous historical contexts, Biletsky himself would have been included in that term. — Xenophore; talk 20:14, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

• Yes, he is referred to by his followers as "White Leader"[16] we have many strong sources reporting that he is a white supremacist and we have tons of sources explaining to us how the "Azov Movement" that he created and that currently leads, which includes the "Azov Regiment", the "National Corps", "National Militia", they are all organizations inspired by supremacist and neo-Nazi ideology. I believe that this question is without a shadow of a doubt.

First of all, Biletsky is the author of a book called "The Word of the White Leader",[17] let's read some passages of the brochure: "Ethnic civil war can be won by indigenous Europeans only under the banner of the New Right National Revolutions. Therefore, the global economic crisis and ethnic chaos will cause a huge psychological breakdown of white nations. The ideas of internationalism, liberalism, and capitalism will be rejected, and the steel ideas of the National Community, hierarchy, order, and social justice must replace them." and, at the end "Andriy Biletsky - Our Leader and the author of this collection has been imprisoned in the Kholodnohirsky prison of Kharkiv for the second year. [...] the White Leader and other patriot detainees are building a system of interaction and assistance behind bars."

Michael Colborne, from Bellingcat group, wrote this about the brochure:[18] "Biletsky has a history of involvement in explicitly anti-Semitic organizations and using openly anti-Semitic, racist rhetoric, writing about the need to "cleanse" Ukraine of foreigners in a 2013 pamphlet of his writings called Word of the White Leader. The hagiographic preface of this work, written by comrades of Biletsky, references a "long-dead German" - an obvious reference to Adolf Hitler - who outlined the qualities of a successful leader, qualities Biletsky apparently also possessed."

Going to check the site of the "Patriot of Ukraine" party, the party Biletsky founded, we find some interesting pieces written by him: Here he wrote this "young Ivan Franko [...] the writer argued that human races are divided into higher and lower. He considered the White race to be the highest, and Neanderthals, N_gro_s, and Papuans to be the "lowest." Other races occupied an intermediate position. According to Frank, the "lower races" first differed from the monkeys. And from them ("lower races") stood out higher, more perfect forms. By the way, in modern science, this is one of the main hypotheses of anthropogenesis. [...] I would like to wish our "real" friends to read "uncircumcised" censored classics."[19]
Here we see a sort of manifesto: "The European Race is the creator of human civilization and culture. All the above, valuable and the best on our planet is associated with the White Man. However, now the European is on the verge of biological destruction. Against the White Race there is a well-planned war on the physical, spiritual, cultural, civilizational levels. Ukraine has been the vanguard of White Civilization throughout its history. Now is the time to fulfill its main purpose – to become not a shield, but the sword of White Europe, to save the White Man from extinction, to create new Ideals, to become a new Sun that will illuminate European Nations."[20]

Some strong sources below:

BBC:[21] "Andrei Biletsky, a white supremacist commander"

CNN:[22] "Azov's leadership openly espoused White supremacist views and cultivated links with similarly minded groups and individuals in the West. In 2010, Andriy Biletsky, now leader of the National Corps, the Azov movement's political wing, reportedly said his goal was to "lead the White races of the world in a final crusade.""

The Independent:[23] "It was organised by Andriy Biletsky, a white supermacist former football hooligan"

Financial Times:[24] "Andreas Umland, a German professor based in Ukraine who studies the far-right, described Mr Biletsky and a few other candidates linked to him as “biological racists” [really close to supremacist, or is it just the same thing?]."

The Moscow Times:[25] "a party founded by avowed white supremacist Andriy Biletsky"

Kharkiv Human Rights Protection Group:[26]"Andriy Biletsky, a man with a highly dubious neo-Nazi and white supremacist background"

Telegraph:[27] "Mr Biletsky, also known as the White Leader"--Mhorg (talk) 13:27, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

• There are two questions in the RfC.

1. For the lead, I would say no. I think we should discount all WP:PRIMARY, and many recent secondary RS do not call him "supremacist". Hence, I think that "far-right" in the lead covers this already.
2. For the body of the page, yes, but as a part of the controversy, with an explanation and details, not just as a statement of fact, and not to "label" him (as the title of the RfC suggests). My very best wishes (talk) 14:23, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

Now, speaking about quotations by Mhorg above, one should read what they actually say. For example, 2nd CNN source actually say the following [28]:

In 2010, Andriy Biletsky, now leader of the National Corps, the Azov movement's political wing, reportedly said his goal was to "lead the White races of the world in a final crusade." In a statement to CNN, the Azov regiment said it "appreciates and respects Andriy Biletsky as the regiment's founder and first commander, but we have nothing to do with his political activities and the National Corps party" -- adding the former commander never made such comments.

adding the former commander never made such comments. My very best wishes (talk) 16:13, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

Since when did the statements of the neo-Nazis of the "Azov regiment" become a usable source on Wikipedia? Mhorg (talk) 16:28, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

The statement is obviously telling and defines him as a white supremacist. However, given the repeated denials by the subject and others (above), this is worth checking. I saw this claim appearing for the first time here (a news source), without any mention why, when and at what occasion he allegedly said it. This had to be documented somewhere. Typically, a journalist keeps a record while making an interview, precisely for that reason (a person may say "I never said" this, and it does happen that journalists may misquote something). Did you see more details on when exactly and where he said it? My very best wishes (talk) 17:44, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

The statements of the subject of a WP:BLP are RS and seriously important to include if they're refuting controversial labels and information that's included here - we need to maintain a WP:NPOV. IndigoBeach (talk) 11:31, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

I've finally managed to find some of Biletsky's writing from around the time of that quote, available here. Some passages to highlight (machine-translated):

Pages 16-17:

"But migrants still have a habit of breeding. For example the average Afghan family has six to eight children. Compare this with an average Ukrainian family with one or two children. Then we have the following: after five years on the territory of Ukraine, migrants automatically become full citizens. Their number will grow, along with their impact on the politics, economy, culture of Ukraine. With a negative birth rate among ethnic Ukrainians, in 30-40 years half of Ukraine's population will be "colored". Those who entertain the illusion that migrants will quietly enter Ukrainian life do not want to see the truth. Most migrants without even a primary education, without knowing the language of Ukraine, will join the crime and marginal classes, not being able to compete on an equal footing with Ukrainians, they will create "fellowships" that will oust all "non-countrymen" from the economy."

That strikes me as ripped straight out of the Great replacement white supremacist conspiracy theory. There's more of it throughout the text, for instance on pages 26-27.

The essay on pages 22 and 23 is also important for this discussion, though I will not be translating it. Also not going to bother translating the rest, as it's more of the same.

Still, none of this was the source for that quote about leading the white races. I'll keep looking. Lkb335 (talk) 01:09, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

From [29] (obviously not a reliable source, just looking for the origin of this quote) there is:

"В программной статье «Патриота Украины», подписанной именем Билецкого, утверждается: «лечение нашего Национального организма необходимо начинать с Расового очищения Нации. И тогда в здоровом Расовом теле возродится здоровый Национальный Дух, а с ним культура, язык и все остальное. Кроме вопроса чистоты, мы должны обратить внимание также на вопросы полноценности Расы. Украинцы – это часть (причем одна из крупнейших и самых качественных) европейской Белой Расы. Расы-Творца великой цивилизации, самых высоких человеческих достижений. Историческая миссия нашей Нации в это переломное столетие – возглавить и повести за собой Белые Народы всего мира в последний крестовый поход за свое существование. Поход против возглавляемого семитами недочеловечества»."

Still can't find the original text itself. The above quote suggests that it's likely from the official website of Патріот України, circa 2010; that's accessible via the wayback machine here. I'm afraid I don't have the Ukrainian language ability needed to find the text, if it can be found. Lkb335 (talk) 01:36, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

• Great, please let me know if you find something. If there is nothing, that particular statement I think could be removed, but there are many others. Just to make clear, I do not mind answering "yes" to the RfC question, i.e. noticing this somewhere in the lead ("Should Andriy Biletsky be described as a white supremacist in the article's lede"). My very best wishes (talk) 01:17, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

  No, I am totally against deleting it. If we don't find it, maybe it's somewhere else. We have tons of reliable sources reporting it, and what Biletsky said on those years is fully in line with that quote, so there's no point in doubting it. Mhorg (talk) 10:27, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

No objections from me except that I think "far-right" covers this already in the lead. My very best wishes (talk) 17:58, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

Oh yes, in my opinion, these are certainly supremacist views. However, (a) this is not the statement he denied of ever saying (I am not seeing any details on when exactly and where he allegedly said the phrase he denies), (b) we better use a secondary RS that places his views/claims to proper context rather than translating PRIMARY, and (c) the lead should summarize content currently on the page, proportional to its presence on the page. My very best wishes (talk) 14:35, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

Yep, as I said, I'm still looking for the actual origin of the quote. Lkb335 (talk) 14:41, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

• I can see that Mhorg added a lot more sources [30]. That's fine, but I would suggest the following: (a) expand/improve significantly the section about his views, and (b) suggest on the article talk page how to summarize this newly improved section in the lead. My very best wishes (talk) 20:08, 15 May 2022 (UTC)
• Comment Initially I opposed as it did look like the label, which is quite a loaded label at that, was based merely on one quote from 12 years ago, which I felt was insufficient to draw such a conclusion. I am happy to be corrected. However, given that he is undisputedly a far-right ultranationalist with extreme views, does for example wanting to "cleanse the country of all foreigners" include for example the Poles and Hungarians, the sizable white European minorities in the Ukraine? Because if so that wouldn't be white supremacy.Abcmaxx (talk) 23:49, 15 May 2022 (UTC)
• Support: As others have pointed out, he is refered to as "White Leader". Abcmaxx pointed out the possible racism towards other white ethnicities, but I think this comes down to our definition of white supremacist. Adolf Hitler also held racist views towards Poles, Slavs, Russians, etc., but I personally would still classify him as a white supremacist because his vision of an "ideal" race was still white. bop34 • talk • contribs 11:54, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

In his book (if that is his book) he proudly defined himself as a "White Leader". But it does not mean we should define him as Great White Leader on the page. "A white supremacist"? Yes, sure, if there is such consensus. But it does appear from citation above that he also holds xenophobic views towards other non-Ukrainian people. This is hardly "white", but whatever sources say. My very best wishes (talk) 15:20, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

• Yes/Support - Per nom; we have three pretty main stream RS's applying the label in a direct way. Seems like that should meet WP:CONTENTIOUS. NickCT (talk) 20:52, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
• Yes - Because he is described as such by several reputable sources. The vagaries of what constitutes the white race and race/ethnicity differences are irrelevant when the term is directly used by RSs to describe him. PraiseVivec (talk) 12:52, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
• No in lede & Yes as attributed commentary in "Political views" section - not wikivoice. This is a WP:BLP so must include the counter arguments refuting the description to maintain WP:NPOV. IndigoBeach (talk) 10:38, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
• No in lede, one incident isn't enough to make that sort of definitive statement.--Ortizesp (talk) 19:07, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

  @Ortizesp: No, it isn't one incident. Did you read the part about his writings on "Patriot of Ukraine" website? Mhorg (talk) 12:01, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

• Not in such definitive terms. He has had that aspect, and it is reasonable for the lead to reflect it. But now, he is now fighting for a democracy with a Jewish President. That's not a white supremacist thing to do. No idea if he has outgrown white supremacism, or if he simply finds it inconvenient at present. But at this point, his own position is ambiguous, and our lead should reflect that. Adoring nanny (talk) 03:21, 26 May 2022 (UTC)
• Yes . The statement is backed up by several RS. He hasn't denied the label in question either. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 18:27, 28 May 2022 (UTC)
  • He has refuted that label many times, it's even sourced and mentioned in the article that he has.Abcmaxx (talk) 22:06, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

    The fact that he denied it means nothing. Mhorg (talk) 22:25, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

• Not in lead, possibly in body. As per above comments. Re the reliable sources cited, the BBC source (the strongest) is old (2014) and therefore could be used in the body in historical, past tense form, making sure we attend to other strong sources describing a subsequent change. The Independent source is weak (its author is "Joe Sommerlad is a writer and blogger specialising in US politics and long reads on a wide range of cultural and historical subjects" according to his byline). As noted already, Metro is an unreliable tabloid. Mhorg presents some original research based on a reading of a book (actually pamphlet) The Word of the White Leader, but according to the linked website this was published in 2014, so same caveats as BBC would apply, as well as the fact that no words along lines of "supremacist" are used, so this is not usable without expert interpretation. Mhorg's quote from Colbourne then shows that the pamphlet is actually older still (2013) and that the text Mhorg quotes is actually from the preface not Biletsky's own text. The Patriot of Ukraine text is older still, 2008, and very much a primary text requiring expert interpretation: he is describing Ivan Franco's views not his own. (Mhorg says Since when did the statements of the neo-Nazis of the "Azov regiment" become a usable source on Wikipedia? but wants us to use primary sources from far right groups as our source even when they disagree with expert commentary.) Mhorg then goes on to add some better secondary sources. The CNN source throws doubt on the oft-quoted "Untermenschen" passage, which nobody has found a primary source for. Umland is a good expert to use with attribution, but no biological racism is not synonymous with white supremacism. Moscow Times sayinh Biletsky has a white supremacist background is also old, 2015, and an opinion piece (is it's author Josh Cohen authoritative?). The KHPG source, which I consider reliable, is from 2015, and is interesting: Even the most notorious neo-Nazi in Ukraine’s parliament recently denied having previously made white supremacist and anti-Semitic utterances – among the reasons why Viacheslav Likhachev, head of the National Minority Rights Monitoring Group and leading researcher in the field, expresses ‘cautious optimism’ about the situation with anti-Semitism and xenophobia in Ukraine... A telling detail, for example, was the fact that Andriy Biletsky, a man with a highly dubious neo-Nazi and white supremacist background, recently claimed that he had never made a foul call for a crusade by the white race against Semitic subhumans. Again, this adds doubt to the Untermenschen quote and suggests he was already changing by 2015. In short, we shouldn't state it so definitively, especially in the lead (where far right is sufficient), but more carefully in the body. BobFromBrockley (talk) 18:09, 6 June 2022 (UTC)

BLP violation

@My very best wishes: Since interviews are considered self-published material, they cannot be used for any claim about living people. This is a non-negotiable policy. M.Bitton (talk) 01:15, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

@Drmies: Are interviews considered as self published material or not? M.Bitton (talk) 01:43, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

No. If they are published by news outlets or whatever, they are obviously not "self-published". The comments made in the interview might be described as "self-sourced", but that's a different matter, and if, as here, the quoted material is properly ascribed, then any problem one might have would not be one of reliability or even truth, but rather one of weight. If some jackass says "Hitler was right" in some interview, there is no doubt we could in principle quote that, knowing full well that Hitler was never right about anything. Drmies (talk) 01:50, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

@Drmies: Since the comments might be described as "self-sourced" (that is the same as self-published, except that in this case it is spoken rather than written, but without fact checking), how can we publish their claim about a living person? M.Bitton (talk) 01:54, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

That is not the same. The difference is not that the one is spoken and the other one is written--it's that the one was spoken to a writer/interviewer for some journalistic or other outlet, one which, if they count as RS, can be expected to do some basic fact-checking. This difference is quite important and I do not understand why you are equating them. This is not to say that interview are automatically to be taken as true, or as always relevant, but what you are also missing here is that the claim is not made in Wikipedia's voice, or as coming from some arbiter of truth: it was properly ascribed to the speaker. Drmies (talk) 14:24, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

I fully understand that it's not being made in Wikipedia's voice, but it is clear that there was no fact checking or even commenting on the statement. The article is simply parroting what he said. M.Bitton (talk) 14:35, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

@Drmies: we used Colborne a thousands times all over the Wikipedia. He is considered a reliable source... can we use him as source here?[31] Mhorg (talk) 08:11, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

Mhorg, a book whose publisher is "Books on Demand"? My first response is HELL NO. If this is to be used, it better be done so after a solid discussion, and I have the feeling that a self-published book from 2022 is way too young to have seasoned into acceptability. Drmies (talk) 14:26, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

So, the "jackass" allegedly said: let's "lead the white races of the world in a final crusade." Personally, I would not include such nonsense at all. But others argue to include. However, there is a problem. The "jackass" claims that he never said such BS. But then there is a question: if he did not say it, then where this came from? And he explains. So just for the sake of fairness (and that is what our BLP policy requires), I think we should include his rebuttal on his BLP page. This is just a few words, and does not sound like an extraordinary claim. My very best wishes (talk) 03:19, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

As about BLP violation, here is it [32], i.e. including the defamatory claim without even mentioning that the subject denied ever saying this. My very best wishes (talk) 03:31, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

Yes, white-supremacists generally deny doing white-supremacist things in the past. On the other hand, as other colleagues have shown, we have the racist articles that Biletsky wrote on the website of his political organization about him. There is no reason to doubt the first-class reliable sources that reported that quote. Mhorg (talk) 08:08, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

The issue here is whether we can publish "self-sourced" claim about a living person? M.Bitton (talk) 14:11, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

Well, you made an incorrect link. If an interview was published by a reliable 3rd party and recorded by a well known journalist, then it is NOT a self-published or a questionable source (like would be a posting on Twitter of Facebook). That has been explained above, consistent with our policies, and even explained in the essay Wikipedia:Interviews you referred to. My very best wishes (talk) 00:26, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

The essay explicitly says: Interviews are generally reliable for the fact that the interviewee said something, but not necessarily for the accuracy of what was said. The publications are merely repeating their comments, typically with minimal editing. No matter how highly respected a publication is, it does not present interviewee responses as having been checked for accuracy. In this sense, interviews should be treated like self-published material.. M.Bitton (talk) 00:35, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

First of all, one needs to read whole essay. It says that an interview can be a great source, but not every interview of course. It says: This page in a nutshell: Interviews are usually primary sources, but may be secondary sources or a mixture of the two. Interviews may be published in reliable publications, or may be self-published or advertisements. Secondly, this is just an essay, someone's personal opinion, not a policy or guideline. My very best wishes (talk) 00:47, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

I hope you're not suggesting that I haven't read the whole essay. The part that I quoted is about the reliability of interviews (no need to explain its importance). Yes, it's an essay which include an opinion that is shared by a number of established editors. M.Bitton (talk) 01:00, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

This all depends on the source belonging (or not) to Wikipedia:QUESTIONABLE. There is a detailed explanation which types of sources belong there, and interviews are not one of them. End of story. Yes, some of the interviews can belong to Wikipedia:QUESTIONABLE, but a lot of others do not. For example, some of them could be self-published, but others reliably published. Please see the guideline. My very best wishes (talk) 14:35, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

If the source was questionable, we wouldn't be having this discussion (the quote that I cited above is self-explanatory). In any case, given that we're going round in circles and to avoid turning this into an unapproachable wall of text, I suggest we let the others share their thoughts. M.Bitton (talk) 21:38, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

Times source for "white supremacist"

See this edit. Problem is the Times article does not name Biletsky. Therefore it seems to me it is SYNTH to assume the "white supremacist" they mention is him, even though it's highly likely, especially given "white supremacist" must be a WP:CONTENTIOUS label ("best avoided unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject"). See also WP:BLPSTYLE. BobFromBrockley (talk) 23:09, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

Maybe a synth, but there is only one founder of Azov, and it is Biletsky, labeled "white supremacist" by multiple RSs. In my opinion it could be accepted, but I leave it to others. Mhorg (talk) 23:17, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

Comical denials to create a false balance

@Lute88 Please explain your your revert here

Why do you think the inclusion of a fringe and comical statement "...and said that it was a fake quotation fabricated by Sergey Lavrov to defame him" following the subject's denial - "Biletsky denied ever making such remarks", is justified. The source is an interview and thus not independent, and gordonua.com is clearly not reliable.

You reverted the telegraph source too.

Some other sources include The Forward and Guardian article already present.

You'd notice in these sources that, they do not include justifications, ramblings and denials from the subject itself, which create a false balance and are undue. — hako9 (talk) 16:45, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

References

— hako9 (talk) 16:45, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

Next time have the courage of your convictions @Lute88. — hako9 (talk) 15:29, 6 October 2023 (UTC)