Talk:Andrea Schiavone/Archive 1

Initial and last edits

Encyclopaedia is not a place for a nacionalistic propaganda. Therefore, I removed the apparent nonsense

Croatian form of the artist's surname (Medulić - Medulich) was introduced by Ivan Kukuljević Sakcinski without any scientific basis and founded on the wrong interpretation of the archive documents, but this form established itself in the Croatian literature.

The paragraph above has nothing to do with biography and work of this great painter and etcher of Italian Renaissance nor it is proof of his 'Croatian' lineage.

My initial edit was removed without any explanation or discussion and my response to that lack of basic editorial ethics of the previous editor - is here.--GiorgioOrsini 19:04, 2 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Toponyms and classification

As to the Meldolla's birthplace - I prefer the original names of the place of his birth - Zara , Venice. To not confuse the reader - I added (today Zadar, Croatia).

Also, by no means Meldolla is not Andrija Medulic nor Croatian painter--GiorgioOrsini 22:29, 8 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

First of all, let's start on the right foot. I love you Italian irridentists. You're great. However, on Wikipedia we have policies, standards and veriefiability, none of which you do a good job of handling. Zadar is a city in Croatia, Zara is its Italian name which has long ago fallen out of usage (it was once parallel with the its Croatian name but Croatian name overtook it). No one cares what you prefer. Zadar is its current official name, and always existed as one of the names for the city. Also, Andrija Medulić is much more well-known in Croatia than he is in Italy. No one is saying he was a Croat, however his connection to Croatia should be duly noted with a category. --Thewanderer 23:41, 8 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I am not an Italian irredentist - so this claim about me - is a deliberate personal attack. As to your we have policies, standards and veriefiability,, please elaborate which ones you applied here and how. Also explain here who are we. Andrija Medulic is a fake name, therefore not a knowledge and shall not be here. Definitively, Meldolla is not Croatian painter nor any serious book about the Italian Renaissance history of art, art gallery, art auctions ever mentioned him as a Croatian painter nor it was ever used other name besides Andrea, Meldolla, Schiavone. --GiorgioOrsini 19:38, 9 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I am man enough to apologize. Sorry. However, you have previously called Croats neo-Nazis and are in no position to speak from a high pulpit. Again, you are trying to erase any Croatian-ness about Meldolla, by attributing Zara as Zadar's real name rather than simply its Italian translation, removing links to the Croatian wiki, and essentially denying that Croats use another name for him. It's not our place to judge that a name is wrong and "unworthy" to be on Wikipedia. The name exists, is in use, and must be mentioned. He is from today's Croatia and was known with a Slavic name (the Slavonian). All that I have said is verifiable. Have a nice day. --Thewanderer 19:51, 9 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

So, the above is your apology??? I called Croats neo-Nazis??? Here is what I said [1] and I am not taking it back! I am not trying to erase something that does not exist. Andrea Meldolla is not Andre Meldollais in France nor Andreas Meldoller in Gremany. There is a very civil and cultural reason for it!

What I wrote is ...

Andrea Meldolla (Zara, c.1510-1515 - Venice, 1563) was an Italian Renaissance etcher and painter.

Meldolla was the son of the Italian commander of a garrison post near Zara, Dalmatia, (today Zadar, Croatia)

... historically accurate and verifiable. It respects the existence of the Venitian Republic and her city Zara on her territory. That time Zara, Venitian Republic is today's Zadar, Croatia - as I stated it clearly above. Then, what is here wrong and why???

Addmitting that someone 'translated' Andrea Meldolla's name into Andrija Medulic does not legalize this 'translation'. If this 'discovery' shall be mentioned at all - it shall go into the Neo-Nazism in Croatia article - not here! Why? I already explained it here [2]!--GiorgioOrsini 00:12, 10 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Please be reasonable. You are using words such as "legalize" to talk about a name. No one can "legalize" a name. A translated name can be, and is, used. It must be mentioned. Removal of the link to Croatian Wikipedia is simply vandalism. If you want to prove that Ivan Kukuljević was a Neo-Nazi, go ahead. It should be interesting to hear. However, you can't simply remove something he did from history. --Thewanderer 18:42, 12 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Honestly Giorgio, I find your attitude unreasonably confrontational. Keep in mind that the gol of wikipedia is not The Truth, but reporting info. Also, Thewanderer is correct regarding the Croatian interwiki link; removing the interwiki links is considered vandalism, and if you remove it again I may be forced to block you for disruption.--Aldux 15:13, 13 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I still prefer the truth. The reporting info does not exclude the truth - rather includes it. An editor pursuing a truth definitively will not hurt the reporting goals. What must be kept here on a respectable level is the Wikipedia credibility and integrity. Also, forgeries shall go into proper category and here, - the text about name invented by some man in the past is not part of the biographical data about this great man. Due respect of a man's life and work includes full respect of his name, too. The interviki reference is left, but classification (Croatian painters) is not.

Also, bear in mind that the respectable member of the Italian Parliament Roberto Menia raised his voice against this nonsense practiced in Croatia by some people [3]. Supporting this 'cultural' achievements will offend some of us, Italians, definitively - which, I hope, is not a Wikipedia goal.--GiorgioOrsini 03:14, 14 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I like not to be involved in Nationalist debates; Freedberg takes note that Meldolla's nickname was Schiavone. I do not know if this reflects merely the place of birth or ethnicity. If it is the former, which I suspect, then I think the Croatian appropriation of the artists is misplaced. If he was born to a "Venetian" family in Zara, he was a Venetian born in Zara, and the Croatian name is an invention.CARAVAGGISTI 14:39, 15 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Your conclusion is the right one. The nickname reflects only his place of birth. Of this practice of 'translating' the names of prominent and world renown Italians are not spared many. So, that way, the Italian Renaissance architect Giorgio Orsini became Croat Juraj Dalmatinac, Francesco Patrizzi, philosopher and poet - Franjo Petric, Giovanni Simonetti - Ivan Simonetti, physician Giorgio Catti - Djuro Catti, inventor and engineer Giovanni Luppis - Ivan Lupis-Vukic, Benedetto Cotrugli -Benedikt Kotruljević [4]. Of course, this list not complete. This utter lack of civilty of some people in Croatia and attempt to misappropriate the Italian culture and people, prompted respectable member of the Italian Parliament Roberto Menia [[5]] to publicly raise his voice against it.

--GiorgioOrsini 01:39, 16 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

To quote the genie (Robin Williams) who exits the bottle in Disney's Aladdin movie: "500 years can give you such a cric (sic) in the neck". In my view, Venetians have far too many spectacular painters to worry about losing a second-stringer like Meldolla. This fight is not worth a kilobyte. Put in a comment in the article to look at the debate in the discussion, and keep the article focused on Meldolla.CARAVAGGISTI 16:52, 17 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I would agree with you to the point of some rankings of the Italian Renaissance painters. However, some level of credibility must be maintained here. Also, political propaganda and someone's point of view what shall be the right name and why - simply pollutes this article.--GiorgioOrsini 23:18, 17 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Zadar / Zara

The article on Zadar is called "Zadar" following the usual Wikipedia policies on place-names. Zadar is reasonably well known to English-speakers from various countries as a holiday airport etc, whereas very few would know where "Zara" is. The policies are quite clear on this. It is quite wrong to use the Italian name just because the city was ruled by Venice when Meldolla was born there. Following that logic he should have died in "Venezia" not Venice.

Equally the current short note on the name used in Croatia, & its inaccuracy, is entirely correct content, and has evolved after much editing of less suitable versions. Attempts to remove it show clear POV in my view 21:11, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

It is usual in Wikiedia to use historic names like Danzik instead of Gdansk, or Costantinople instead of Istanbul. Until 1947 Zara was the standard international name of present day Zadar, as it always was in the previous centuries.--Giovanni Giove 21:22, 23 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I suggest you look at the policies. In fact uses of Gdansk/Danzig vary, partly according to date - usually Danzig for the Middle Ages, but increasing Gdansk in the Modern period. I see no reason to depart from Wikipedia policy in this case, especially when Zadar is far better known in English, and Zara is explained two lines below. You have not even linked Zara to the correct page!

Johnbod 21:40, 23 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The problem was already discussed in other articles, Zara is ok. I go to correct the link, thank you for tell me.Finnaly I rember you that Zara was Italian until 1945.--Giovanni Giove 21:44, 23 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Zara was Italian/venetian name used by only small minority of Italians --Anto 14:22, 29 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Pictures

I see there are two on the Croat page - it would be good if we could get these, or any, here Johnbod 04:29, 1 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I do not see any reason fo a Titian picture here. This is is not a Titian biography--Giorgio Orsini 15:12, 3 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

caption clarified - the woodcut is by Schiavone (as you would have seen if you had looked at the file description) Johnbod 15:30, 3 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Name of the painter

Quote from [[6]] page; "Please, keep in mind that, per WP:NC, for the purposes of naming this article the names used for this artist by Latin, Italian, Croatian or Chinese-speaking individuals and authors (of the past, present and future) are irrelevant. Instead, we should consider only the names commonly used in English-language" If Andrea Meldola is better known in english as Andrea Schiavone, shouldn't that be the name of the page? Same thing goes for Zadar. Could you give me the link to the pages where was the name discussed? Also, Zadra was Italian only between 1918 and 1945. Before that was part of Austro-Hungary, Habsubrg monarchy, France and before 1805 Venetian Republic (which is no Italy), Hungary-Croatia, Croatian kingdom (since 1402), Byzantine empire, state of eastern Gots, Roman Empire, lIburnia and Greek Colony (Iadera). No mention of Italy before 1918:) |Ceha 19:12, 13 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, Google confirms that the name "Andrea Schiavone" is used five times more often than "Andrea Meldolla. I'm moving the page. --Zmaj 12:08, 30 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Please, follow the Wikipedia rules when changing the article name. This change is not legal.--Guivon 00:16, 8 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"Andrea Schiavone" is the preferred name on the Getty Union Artists Name List [7], which is the most authoritative reference for the names used in English, but I agree the proper procedures should have been followed, most especially in controversial cases like this. Johnbod 01:46, 8 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have reinstrated "Il S" as an option - see [8]. "Lo" seems commoner in Italian , but is also a placename. Christies still use "Il" it seems. Johnbod 10:19, 9 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This is an illegal change of the article name. I advise Zmaj to restore the previous name and follow the valid Wikipedia rules when re-naming an article.--Guivon 22:41, 9 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I might suggest a survey/poll now, before any more moves. Personally, I am in favour of Andrea Schiavone Johnbod 22:49, 9 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The fact that an English source uses "Il Schiavone", does not mean it is correct. No serious man knowing Italian language could use it. It's clearly an English Italian-ignorance typo. Ciao. --Attilios 09:30, 10 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]