Talk:Ancient British Church

Richard Williams Morgan

Came across the (relatively new) Ancient British Church page while tidying up the Richard Williams Morgan article. I've added a link back from RWM - but someone should check whether the two accounts of his Ancient British Church are consistent. (eg they seem to differ on the identity of the present churches that claim succession from Morgan's church.) John O'London (talk) 11:22, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

According to the article "Monzani was consecrated Archbishop of Selsey in 1922 and maintained the Ancient British Church until his death in 1947. Monzani was succeeded by Jonathan Vartan Zotique (born Thomas William Brennand on 21 March 1946 in Toronto, Ontario)." So, one year old Jonathan Vartan Zotique took over the church? Everything about this and the "ABC in Diaspora" seems like something someone made up, it doesn't make sense and they are people who aren't mentioned anywhere outside of a few fringe sources.--Aionlux (talk) 05:34, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

Newman took over from M-Heard, followed by Newman's cousin who remains in post (2015) seventy years after M-Heard retired (1945)!! There have been name changes and in 1979 a merger into union with the Coptic Oriental Orthodox body. Some adherents left, not wanting to become Coptic OO. As regards Zotique, he formed a body in North America, which I believe to be very tiny, the Ancient British Church in North America. -- Diakonias (talk) 20:19, 21 April 2015 (UTC) Diakonias

User generated text misattributed as EB1911

This citation: <ref name="1911">[http://encyclopedia.jrank.org/BLA_BOS/BLOCK.html The Encyclopedia Britannica, Volume V04, Page 585, 1911.]</ref> was added by one contributor in this 2012 edit of Ancient British Church, in this 2012 page creation of Charles Isaac Stevens, and in this 2012 page creation of Leon Chechemian. Following the link in the citation, "Block" at encyclopedia.jrank.org, shows that it is WP:USERGENERATED that does not cite any references and is entirely not found in any Encyclopedia Britannica volume (compare actual EB1911 page). There was no encyclopedic content on the web page and all the text was in the "Additional information and Comments" section. It should be removed and replaced with better attribution, but in the meantime, I corrected the citation in these three articles from

<ref name="1911">[http://encyclopedia.jrank.org/BLA_BOS/BLOCK.html The Encyclopedia Britannica, Volume V04, Page 585, 1911.]</ref>

to

<ref name="jrank">{{cite web|title=Block|website=encyclopedia.jrank.org|url=http://encyclopedia.jrank.org/BLA_BOS/BLOCK.html}}{{Self-published source|date=December 2014}}{{tertiary}}</ref>.

—BoBoMisiu (talk) 23:52, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

Ancient British Church?

Sources shown at fr:Discussion:Église orthodoxe celtique#Besoin de vérification do not call the church Jules Ferrette founded "Ancient British Church". Rather,

they call it "Orthodox Church of the British Isles" (Christians in the Twenty-First Century, Routledge, 2014). It is a problem because this information is incompatible with what is currently written on its article and we already have a Orthodox Church of the British Isles article on WP on a different church, the British Orthodox Church.

it is said the Celtic Orthodox Church claims to have been founded by Ferret (source), a claim incompatible with what is currently written on its article

they call it the "Celtic Orthodox Church", and say this is the Celtic Orthodox Church (Pichon, Maaloula (XIXe-XXIe siècles). Du vieux avec du neuf : Histoire et identité d’un village chrétien de Syrie, p. 40)

it is said the British Orthodox Church claims to have been founded by Ferret (source), a claim incompatible with what is currently written on its article

Pearson's Wicca and the Christian Heritage: ritual, sex and magic (p. 27) says "Ancient British Church" is the name of the first and only church Ferret founded. However, I did not find this name, "Ancient British Church", in one of the two sources Pearson says (idem.) are the main ones he used to get information on this church, Episcopi Vagantes and the Anglican Church. Episcopi Vagantes and the Anglican Church does not give Ferret's church any name. I have yet to check his other main source, Bishops at Large.
Could someone give some explanation as to why there is such a disparity among the sources? Veverve (talk) 17:55, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

@Veverve: I don't think that Christians in the twenty-first Century actually says that, I see on a snippet of p226 "As Orthodoxy becomes increasingly naturalized in the UK and more people of British origin join the Orthodox churches, icons of the Celtic and Saxon saints of the British Isles who lived before the Great Schism of 1054 have become ..."[1]. That doesn't matter as we don't need that source, there are other reliable ones.[2].Doug Weller talk 11:40, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

@Veverve: if that material was written by the article creator, Paul Bedson, the answer is that he had a fringe agenda, misrepresented sources, etc, and he was eventually blocked, as were his later socks, I would not trust anything he wrote. It probably needs a major rewrite. Doug Weller talk 18:15, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

As far as I've been able to discover, the fullest (and most fully researched) account of the origins and history of the Ancient British Church is in G H Thomann A Short Biography of the Reverend Richard Williams Morgan (c:1815–1889), the Welsh Poet and Re-founder of the Ancient British Church: An enquiry into the origins of neo-Celtic Christianity, together with a reprint of several works by Richard Williams Morgan and Jules Ferrette, etc., Solna, Sweden: St Ephrem's Institute (2001).John O'London (talk) 19:10, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

@Doug Weller and John O'London: thanks for your inputs. As far as I have been able to check, in this article Paul Bedson seems to have been faithful to the sources given. I cannot check A Short Biography of the Reverend Richard Williams Morgan as it is nowhere to be found online and seems out of print; same goes for The encyclopedia of cults, sects, and new religions. Veverve (talk) 19:31, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

From what I can read here, the British Orthodox Church was not founded by Ferret, althought Ferret seem to have been involved in it. Veverve (talk) 19:31, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

Yes, the Thomann book is a bit obscure - there only seem to be three copies in libraries in the UK! John O'London (talk) 19:37, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

Looks like the Short Biography is online - although it can be purchased, maybe someone at WP:Resource request has access. @Dbachmann:, do you have any suggestions? Doug Weller talk 08:37, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

@Doug Weller: could you provide the online link for the Short Biography? Veverve (talk) 09:03, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

@Veverve: oops sorry.[3]. Doug Weller talk 12:58, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

@Doug Weller: Unfortunately, it is not an online version of the Short Biography. It is supposed to be a book review of the Short Biography published in the The Journal of Ecclesiastical History; however, the review is wrongly indexed so instead we see a review of a completely different book, Tradition and imagination. Revelation and change. Veverve (talk) 13:14, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

{re|Veverve}} yeah, I thought that might be the case. Doug Weller talk 13:49, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

@Doug Weller: @Veverve: I'm afraid you need to log in and then scroll down - the review of Thomann is on p 183 of the Reviews section. Actually it's quite critical - the reviewer provides a better assessment of Richard Williams Morgan's significance than Thomann did! Quote from the opening paragraph of the review: "Richard Williams Morgan still awaits the full biography he deserves. This short study by Thomann provides little more than an outline of his life and work, which is neither critical nor analytical. Morgan's later ministry as Mar Pelagius, bishop and patriarch of the British Church, upon which Thomann concentrates, although providing an insight into the exotic world of those Alan Bain called `Bishops Irregular' should be set in its proper context, that of Morgan's passionate Welsh patriotism which was ultimately its source and inspiration." John O'London (talk) 10:00, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

I found this article and this one where the church is called "Ancient British Church". Veverve (talk) 19:44, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

[[re|Veverve}} I am not at all sure we should use such websites as sources

Doug Weller talk 11:40, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

its founder, at least in the title of the order of service, called it "the British Church" see Richard Williams Morgan writing as H. H. Pelagius: Altar Service of the British Church: Order of the Celebration of the Sacrifice of the Altar, or Holy Communion (1878). John O'London (talk) 09:44, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

I have been able to check Bishops at Large. Anson calls this church "Ancient British Church" clearly numerous times, e.g. on p. 216-225. The author of the book seems very confused on the history of this church and its alleged successors, because of its many versions and the clear lack of documents and information. To quote the author: "The more one reflects on the combination of rigid Protestantism with fascinating legends of the Ancient British Patriarchate and its affiliated organizations, autocephalous tropoi, etc., one cannot help suspecting that a later generation of chroniclers wanted them to be true, and accepte them as true. The wish was father to the thought." (p. 223). Veverve (talk) 14:57, 22 October 2021 (UTC)
@Doug Weller and John O'London: I now understand why I stumbled upon the original problem, i.e. the uncertainty concerning the name of this church. The fact is, the Orthodox Church of the British Isles/British Orthodox Church and the Celtic Orthodox Church both claim to have been founded by Ferrette; see Jules Ferrette#Apostolic succession claims. Veverve (talk) 12:43, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

Date of foundation

Current version says "Allegedly, in Oxfordshire in 1858, Richard Williams Morgan, an Anglican priest, was conditionally "baptised, confirmed, ordained and consecrated" Patriarch of the Ancient British Church by Ferrette, and given by him the full title Mar Pelagius I, Hierarch of Caerleon-on-Usk." With a reference to Joanne Pearson's Wicca and the Christian Heritage pp 34-6.

Can someone check what Pearson actually says? Surely the date 1858 must be wrong - Ferrette didn't actually arrive in England until 1865 or 1866. Various sources give the date of his consecration of Richard Williams Morgan as 1867, 1874 or 'between 1874 and 1878'. "Oxfordshire" suggests Pearson is referring to the supposed ceremony said to have been held at Mapledurham, Oxfordshire, at some date after 1874. John O'London (talk) 09:51, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

@John O'London: I think I am the one who wrote this line. It seems I have drawn some hasty conclusion; the source says (p. 35-6):

"After 1858, Morgan found himself serving in parishes in England and it was whilst undertaking occasional duties in Oxfordshire that Mar Julius (Ferrette) is supposed to have conditionally baptised, confirmed, ordained and consecrated him as the first Patriarch of a restored Ancient British Church, with the title of Mar Pelagius I, Hierarch of Caerleon-on-Usk."

Veverve (talk) 09:57, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

I changed the article article accordingly. Thanks for checking! Veverve (talk) 10:07, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

@Veverve:Thanks, Veverve - I'm struggling with this at the moment in a sandbox draft for the Richard Williams Morgan article. I don't think you came to a hasty conclusion - it's Pearson's text that is unclear, since she doesn't say how long after 1858 Morgan met up with Ferrette!

I don't have ready access to Pearson's book at the moment - but I made some notes from it a while ago, and according to those she (on an earlier page, p 34) also said something about Ferrette to the effect "Ferrette arrived England 1866 with printed copy of consecration as 'mar Julius, b'p of Iona' from Mar Bedros, B'p of Emesa - invited pious and clergymen to accept holy orders, accused of fraud, disappeared until 1874, consecrated successor and left for USA." (My summary!)

I'm relying mostly on Thomann, who went back to original sources, and gives a sort of timeline (pp 7-8). However, Thomann is confusing (and I think, he was confused by all the claims and counterclaims by the various successor churches).

1866 Ferrette arrived in England as 'Bishop of Iona'

1867 claim that Ferrette consecrated RWM in 1867 denied by Thomann's sources

1874 Ferrette left for the US

Ferrette consecrated RWM shortly before he left. Some sources say at Mapledurham, Oxfordshire, where (they claimed) Morgan was curate.

Thomann seems to be convinced by the date 1874, but can see no reason why it would have taken place at Mapledurham, where RWM wasn't curate, even temporarily.

it was certainly before 1878, when RWM published an Altar Service for the British Church as Pelagius I.

1879 "there is also a tradition that Morgan received a second consecration by Frederick George Lee, Thomas Wimberley Mossman and John Thomas Seccombe of the OCR on 6th March 1879 at Mapledurham. There is no substantial evidence for any of these traditions..."

I've got photocopies of the relevant pages of Thomann (pp 7-11) which take the history of the Ancient British Church up to 1897, if they would be of any use to you. I don't know how Wikipedia works, but there must be some way I can send scans of them to you?

John O'London (talk) 11:33, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

@John O'London: Yes, the contradicting stories and claims are confusing, as already noted by Anson earlier.

I do not plan to work on the Ancient British Church (ABC) and its (self-proclaimed) successors anymore apart from a few edits, so I do not think Thomann's work would be of any use to me. Besides, I am already busy trying to explain Wikipedia to a user seemingly affiliated to an organisation claiming to be related to the ABC. Veverve (talk) 11:47, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

@Veverve:That's OK - I've no interest in the history of the ABC myself, except RWM's role in its inception and the light it throws on his views. I'm not sure he really took any interest in it once he'd found a successor! I may edit out the 1858 date at some time, since given the dates of Ferrette's stay in England it doesn't make sense.John O'London (talk) 11:59, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

Gaps

I have left some gaps in the history of this denomination, because I was very tired from working on this topic. Those gaps can be filled with the information found in Anson's Bishops at Large. This work is very useful for anyone working on this topic, but this book is quite hard to read due to the density of information and the sometimes lack of clarity of the layout. Veverve (talk) 16:11, 12 December 2021 (UTC)