Talk:Individualist anarchism

This topic contains controversial issues, some of which have reached a consensus for approach and neutrality, and some of which may be disputed. Before making any potentially controversial changes to the article, please carefully read the discussion-page dialogue to see if the issue has been raised before, and ensure that your edit meets all of Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Please also ensure you use an accurate and concise edit summary.

Anarchism

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Anarchism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of anarchism on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.AnarchismWikipedia:WikiProject AnarchismTemplate:WikiProject Anarchismanarchism articles

Anarchism WikiProject open tasks
watch · edit · history · talk · purge

Recognized content · Drafts & requests · Subscribe · Member list · Resources · How can I help?

Did you know

05 Nov 2024 – 1931 Barcelona rent strike (talk · edit · hist) was nominated for DYK by Launchballer (t · c); see discussion
25 Oct 2024 – Voltairine de Cleyre (talk · edit · hist) was nominated for DYK by Grnrchst (t · c); see discussion

Redirects for discussion

07 Nov 2024 – Pauletta Brupbakher (talk · edit · hist) →Paulette Brupbacher was RfDed by Fram (t · c); see discussion

Good article nominees

13 Aug 2024 – Fagoppositionens Sammenslutning (talk · edit · hist) was GA nominated by Grnrchst (t · c); start discussion
15 Apr 2024 – Anarchism without adjectives (talk · edit · hist) was GA nominated by Grnrchst (t · c); see discussion

Requests for comments

13 Oct 2024 – Antifa (United States) (talk · edit · hist) has an RfC by Aquillion (t · c); see discussion

Peer reviews

26 Oct 2024 – Lucy Parsons (talk · edit · hist) has been put up for PR by Mujinga (t · c); see discussion

Requested moves

06 Nov 2024 – 2019 Tacoma attack (talk · edit · hist) is requested to be moved to 2019 Tacoma, Washington attack by Another Believer (t · c); see discussion

Articles for creation

01 Oct 2024 – Draft:Donat Cherepanov (talk · edit · hist) has been submitted for AfC by Speedymagoo (t · c)
04 Nov 2024 – Draft:Escape Crops in Southeast Asia (talk · edit · hist) submitted for AfC by McbCC1 (t · c) was moved to Draft:Escape crops in Southeast Asia (talk · edit · hist) by Czar (t · c) on 06 Nov 2024

Cleanup (0) · Potentially related articles · Recent edits · Recent Commons images · Stub expansion project (521)

Economics Mid‑importance

	Business and economics portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Economics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Economics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.EconomicsWikipedia:WikiProject EconomicsTemplate:WikiProject EconomicsEconomics articles
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Philosophy: Social and political / Modern / Contemporary Mid‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Philosophy, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of content related to philosophy on Wikipedia. If you would like to support the project, please visit the project page, where you can get more details on how you can help, and where you can join the general discussion about philosophy content on Wikipedia.PhilosophyWikipedia:WikiProject PhilosophyTemplate:WikiProject PhilosophyPhilosophy articles

Mid

This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Associated task forces:
/
	Social and political philosophy
	Modern philosophy
	Contemporary philosophy

Politics: Libertarianism Mid‑importance

	Politics portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of politics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PoliticsWikipedia:WikiProject PoliticsTemplate:WikiProject Politicspolitics articles
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
	Libertarianism portal This article is supported by WikiProject Libertarianism (assessed as High-importance).

Sociology Mid‑importance

	Society portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Sociology, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of sociology on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SociologyWikipedia:WikiProject SociologyTemplate:WikiProject Sociologysociology articles
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Archives

Archive 1	Archive 2	Archive 3
Archive 4	Archive 5	Archive 6

This page has archives. Sections older than 180 days may be automatically archived by when more than 3 sections are present.

Anarchism Tree Diagram

Sock, now indeffed. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she/they) 01:29, 29 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Anarchism Tree

It helps to have a diagram of the various schools of anarchism. PhilLiberty (talk) 20:51, 22 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

BeŻet, you should discuss things rather than unilaterally deleting my edits. PhilLiberty (talk) 20:56, 22 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@PhilLiberty: Could you please stop vandalizing pages using some diagrams you created. Per WP:BRD, you are making a bold change that warrants discussion. There is a large number of sources indicating that anarcho-capitalism has nothing to do with anarchism, let alone individualist anarchism. If you disagree, discuss this first before engaging in an edit war. BeŻet (talk) 20:58, 22 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I'm pretty good at the bold, revert, and discuss cycle. By the definitions given in Wikipedia articles and this article, anarcho-capitalism qualifies as individualist anarchism. This is supported by Benjamin Tucker and Voltairine de Cleyre among others. It is true that a large number of sources, virtually all sectarian anarcho-socialists, that cite the old "true Scotsman" aka dildo fallacy. I would say that this position was refuted long ago in essays like this: http://www.ozarkia.net/bill/anarchism/library/rg-anarcho-cap.html Now I will boldly revert again. PhilLiberty (talk) 21:16, 22 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

But that's not true. Benjamin Tucker wasn't even alive when Rothbard came up with his ideology. Stop edit warring, or you will be reported. BeŻet (talk) 21:18, 22 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This article is an unreadable mess

I don't even know where to start with this. This article is so absurdly long due to its apparent commitment to throw everything but the kitchen sink in. There is no rhyme or reason to its structure, it just bounces randomly between sub-subjects, individuals and areas even remotely associated with the subject. The sources also appear to be a mix of clearly reliable sources, primary sources and random blog posts from even more random authors. I don't understand how any of this is remotely useful to anyone, whether they be unaffiliated casual readers or dyed-in-the-wool Stirner fans. Does anybody have any idea for how we could improve this article that doesn't involve just blowing it up and starting over? Grnrchst (talk) 11:22, 2 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. I don't see how it's salvagable. WP:TNT it is. czar 14:58, 25 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

After many hours of massive cleanup, wow. So many entire paragraphs or sections had no bearing on the article topic. One of the best examples is special:diff/1240739832. Probably why it took so long to address.

Something I noticed about the content is that there largely aren't (at least in the current version) narrative threads that connect any of the article sections. The main threads are the influence of Stirnerism (moreso than "individualist anarchism" tradition), debates over definitions, and loose connections between individuals who prominently identified as individual anarchists. Now that all that irrelevant "kitchen sink" biographical detail has been excised, I think a lot of the topics would be better off merged elsewhere and that this overview would be best if much shorter, giving the broad strokes of the topic. czar 15:24, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks so much for taking the time and effort to clean this up. I can't say I'm surprised to find out how much of it was based on sources that had no relation to the subject, given how many of these ideology articles I've come across where anywhere up to 90% of the text is synthetic waffle. I'm sure there's more to be done on cutting the crap out of this one, but at the very least this article is more readable now. Thanks again. --Grnrchst (talk) 12:42, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Many anarcho-communists regard themselves as radical individualists

Many anarcho-communists regard themselves as radical individualists,^[1] seeing anarcho-communism as the best social system for the realization of individual freedom.^[2]

References

^ Baginki, Max (May 1907). "Stirner: The Ego and His Own" Archived 2017-09-07 at the Wayback Machine. Mother Earth (2: 3). "Modern Communists are more individualistic than Stirner. To them, not merely religion, morality, family and State are spooks, but property also is no more than a spook, in whose name the individual is enslaved — and how enslaved! [...] Communism thus creates a basis for the liberty and Eigenheit of the individual. I am a Communist because I am an Individualist. Fully as heartily the Communists concur with Stirner when he puts the word take in place of demand — that leads to the dissolution of property, to expropriation. Individualism and Communism go hand in hand."; Novatore, Renzo (1924). "Towards the Creative Nothing" Archived 2011-07-28 at the Wayback Machine; Gray, Christopher (1974). Leaving the Twentieth Century. p. 88; Black, Bob (2010). "Nightmares of Reason" Archived 2010-10-27 at the Wayback Machine. "[C]ommunism is the final fulfillment of individualism. [...] The apparent contradiction between individualism and communism rests on a misunderstanding of both. [...] Subjectivity is also objective: the individual really is subjective. It is nonsense to speak of "emphatically prioritizing the social over the individual," [...]. You may as well speak of prioritizing the chicken over the egg. Anarchy is a "method of individualization." It aims to combine the greatest individual development with the greatest communal unity".

^ Kropotkin, Peter (1901). "Communism and Anarchy" Archived 2021-10-23 at the Wayback Machine. "Communism is the one which guarantees the greatest amount of individual liberty — provided that the idea that begets the community be Liberty, Anarchy [...]. Communism guarantees economic freedom better than any other form of association, because it can guarantee wellbeing, even luxury, in return for a few hours of work instead of a day's work."; Truda, Dielo (1926). "Organisational Platform of the Libertarian Communists" Archived 2011-07-28 at the Wayback Machine. "This other society will be libertarian communism, in which social solidarity and free individuality find their full expression, and in which these two ideas develop in perfect harmony."; "My Perspectives" Archived 2020-04-15 at the Wayback Machine. Willful Disobedience (2: 12). "I see the dichotomies made between individualism and communism, individual revolt and class struggle, the struggle against human exploitation and the exploitation of nature as false dichotomies and feel that those who accept them are impoverishing their own critique and struggle."; Brown, L. Susan (2002). The Politics of Individualism. Black Rose Books; Brown, L. Susan (2 February 2011). "Does Work Really Work?" Archived 2012-06-13 at the Wayback Machine.

Moving this claim here for consideration as (1) it's way too heavy for the lede, and (2) is unclear whether it's original research. If this is noteworthy for the lede, this evidence should be presented in the article body and summarized in the lede. If this claim holds, it should not require any of the primary sources (or synthesis between them) and should be reduced to the reliable, secondary sources that confirm the claim. czar 14:18, 16 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[Stirner:_The_Ego_and_His_Own-1] Baginki, Max (May 1907). "Stirner: The Ego and His Own" Archived 2017-09-07 at the Wayback Machine. Mother Earth (2: 3). "Modern Communists are more individualistic than Stirner. To them, not merely religion, morality, family and State are spooks, but property also is no more than a spook, in whose name the individual is enslaved — and how enslaved! [...] Communism thus creates a basis for the liberty and Eigenheit of the individual. I am a Communist because I am an Individualist. Fully as heartily the Communists concur with Stirner when he puts the word take in place of demand — that leads to the dissolution of property, to expropriation. Individualism and Communism go hand in hand."; Novatore, Renzo (1924). "Towards the Creative Nothing" Archived 2011-07-28 at the Wayback Machine; Gray, Christopher (1974). Leaving the Twentieth Century. p. 88; Black, Bob (2010). "Nightmares of Reason" Archived 2010-10-27 at the Wayback Machine. "[C]ommunism is the final fulfillment of individualism. [...] The apparent contradiction between individualism and communism rests on a misunderstanding of both. [...] Subjectivity is also objective: the individual really is subjective. It is nonsense to speak of "emphatically prioritizing the social over the individual," [...]. You may as well speak of prioritizing the chicken over the egg. Anarchy is a "method of individualization." It aims to combine the greatest individual development with the greatest communal unity".

[Communism_and_Anarchy-2] Kropotkin, Peter (1901). "Communism and Anarchy" Archived 2021-10-23 at the Wayback Machine. "Communism is the one which guarantees the greatest amount of individual liberty — provided that the idea that begets the community be Liberty, Anarchy [...]. Communism guarantees economic freedom better than any other form of association, because it can guarantee wellbeing, even luxury, in return for a few hours of work instead of a day's work."; Truda, Dielo (1926). "Organisational Platform of the Libertarian Communists" Archived 2011-07-28 at the Wayback Machine. "This other society will be libertarian communism, in which social solidarity and free individuality find their full expression, and in which these two ideas develop in perfect harmony."; "My Perspectives" Archived 2020-04-15 at the Wayback Machine. Willful Disobedience (2: 12). "I see the dichotomies made between individualism and communism, individual revolt and class struggle, the struggle against human exploitation and the exploitation of nature as false dichotomies and feel that those who accept them are impoverishing their own critique and struggle."; Brown, L. Susan (2002). The Politics of Individualism. Black Rose Books; Brown, L. Susan (2 February 2011). "Does Work Really Work?" Archived 2012-06-13 at the Wayback Machine.

[1]

[2]