Talk:Ana Bagration-Gruzinsky

Names and titulature

Citing sources which previously only accorded her father and herself the title of Prince and Princess, respectively, the surname "Gruzinsky", and did not claim that her daughters enjoy any dynastic "dignity" through her (how could they? Titles and royal rank have never before been ascribed to female-line descendants of Georgian batonishvili while the legitimate male line is extant), it is increasingly asserted that her father and daughters enjoy higher "royal" rank than previously, while her husband is not accorded equal rank, even though the sources refer to both Anna Gruzinsky and David Mukhraneli with the princely title, as well as their son -- or no titles are used for any of them. I object to the article's inclusion of this selective use of sources and partisan, non-neutral presentation in the article, for which no consensus exists on this talk page. FactStraight (talk) 02:30, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Anna is of royal descent and no one can really argue against it and her origin is not disputed. His father is not the head of just Gruzinsky branch but of whole royal Bagrationi dynasty. Jaqeli (talk) 10:33, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

No one is disputing Anna's royal descent or title: the challenge I raise is to attributing royal "dignity" and titles to her daughters in this article. And I object to the repeated attempts to reduce the "royalty" of the Gruzinskys relative to the Mukrhanelis. I understand that it is your opinion that Anna's father is head "of whole royal Bagrationi dynasty". Do you understand that not everyone agrees with you? And that Wikipedia must remain neutral in this matter, reflecting only what reliable sources say? You cannot continue to bias this and other Bagrationi and Georgian articles in favor of the pretender that you prefer. FactStraight (talk) 00:29, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

This is not my opinion. This is the opinion of the most of the scholars, historians and nobility of Georgia who say that Nugzar is the head of entire Bagrationi royal dynasty. No one supports the claims of self-proclaimed David who is just a prince from a princely house of "Mukrani" the title which always just was the prince of Mukhrani and that's all. They never were royals and never pretended for the Georgian throne because they all knew that they were second-class Bagrations like Bagration-Davitishvili, Babadishvili etc. So stop removing the important details from Anna's page. Jaqeli (talk) 10:46, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Oh God. Why are you referring to her father as Crown Prince now and removing all reference to surnames in the article as if they had already regain the throne? We know the Mukhrani have a claim or they make a claim, they have supporters like the Gruzinsky, maybe less I don't know, but supporters exist. So it is not your role to promote the claim of one and erasing the claim of another. You still have not answer FactStraight on the status of her daughters, whose father was not royal. --The Emperor's New Spy (talk) 14:50, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Malania descent from George XI

The assertion that Princess Ana's first husband, Malania, is a descendant of George XII of Georgia is being removed from the article pending adequate documentation of that claim. Since this is a BLP article, stronger independent evidence is needed than an unattributed assertion in one news periodical. As asked in the edit summary, what is the periodical's source for this descent? Is Malania descended in the legitimate or illegitimate line from the dynasty? If he's a "known" descendant of George XII, that means the intervening ancestors are also known -- who are they? FactStraight (talk) 01:32, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

Grigoriy Malania

Per The Chancellery of the Royal House of Georgia and the Georgian Genealogical Society the line for Grigoriy Malania to Giorgi XII is as follows:

1. Giorgi XII
2. Princess Nino of Georgia
3. Princess Mariam Dadiani
4. Princess Elizabeth Shervashidze
5. Giorgi Mgaloblishvili‏
6. Akaki Mgaloblishvili‏
7. Giorgi Mgaloblishvili‏
8. Nana Mgaloblishvili‏
9. Grigoriy Malania

Can you please provide the links to these sources? Mariam Dadiani was indeed married to a member of the Gurian branch of Shervashidze, but did they really have a daughter called Elizabeth? --Kober^Talk 08:53, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

The Chancellery of the Royal House of Georgia and the Georgian Genealogical Society- can you read? You can contact them yourself or send me you email address and i will send you what they sent me.Olivia Winfield (talk) 07:05, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

I can read, something you apparently cannot. So, please reread WP:SOURCE. Wikipedia cannot accept private correspondence as reliable sources. If you can provide published sources for the above genealogy, that's ok. --Kober^Talk 07:15, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

It is published as well- look it up halfwit- see Leo van de Pas website- www.genealogics.com.Olivia Winfield (talk)

Next time you dare to attack me personally, you will be reported to WP:ANI. Consider this your last warning. Back to the genealogy, Leo van de Pas website is a self-published source. Malania's descent from George XII may well be true, but what we need here is a reliable source. Got it? --Kober^Talk 07:36, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

Since the death of the late Leo van de Pas, an expertised expert in genealogy himself, the Genealogics website founded by him is an edited internet publication. Its current editors are Ian Fettes and Leslie M. Mahler. Both of them are renowned experts in genealogy. For example, Leslie Mahler holds the FASG. As an edited publication, it publishes material that gets first reviewed by editor. Genealogics is no longer a self-published thing.

You can find some names of contributors from some "signatures" in some of short biographies, and notes, that are textual material in the publication's units (a person is a unit and has id number in the publication). Their contributions have gone through assessment by reviewing editor.

Wikipedia instructions say: Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established subject-matter expert, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable, independent publications.

Many of Genealogics contributors are persons whose genealogical and historical, and such, work has been published in academia. 2001:14BA:485C:F700:28A4:9FAA:E020:5822 (talk) 11:12, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

Go for it- you will be reported to WP:ANI. Don't presume to talk to me that way. And Mr. van de Pas' work has been used as source may times on Wikipedia- look it up. And stop stalking me. Got it?Olivia Winfield (talk) 07:46, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

This is a BLP article in which the allegation of her ex-husband's royal descent had been challenged, so the standard for reliable sources is higher than in other articles. Unfortunately, if you suddenly show up on Wikipedia making reference to its internal editorial rules like a non-novice, making the same edits and using the same arguments on the same group of articles as a recently blocked editor, a common reaction can be elicited: your edits and behavior may draw attention to themselves -- but that's not stalking. FactStraight (talk) 23:43, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

patriline

The lineage in the Patriline section is a mummery and makes itself ridiculous on face of the definition of what patriline is. There, in that "patriline", there is Queen Tamar (Thamar). She is not a male and therefore the genetical, biological patriline cannot continue through her. Correctly, here this Ana's historically provable patriline, instead of Tamar, has queen Tamar's husband Davit Soslan. Who appears to be the earliest historically documented male person in this Ana's patriline. 2001:14BA:485C:F700:65D7:5763:361E:8950 (talk) 07:13, 25 November 2021 (UTC)