Talk:Amy of Garmoran

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A fact from Amy of Garmoran appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 4 May 2011 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that Amie MacRuari was divorced by the first Lord of the Isles despite giving him no grounds for doing so?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2011/May.

Wikipedia

Campbell

I think the particular Campbell was Arthur Campbell. Search "Dunstaffnage castle arthur campbell" in GoogleBooks and it'll show a number of books showing that Bruce made Arthur constable of the castle at some point. I don't know the dates though. Anyone know for certain?--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 10:09, 25 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It is certainly Arthur, but no sign of a date. Ben Mac Dui 14:29, 25 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Move

The Gaelic names are fine by me - my main strategy was to keep to pre-existing red and blue links that were dotted about here and there, and they can of course be changed. I also quite take the point about "nic" vs "mac" and am fine with a move to something more appropriate. However, I can't see any evidence of "Amy of the Isles" being used elsewhere. "Amy of the North Isles", would seem to be more likely but whilst this is used of her brother I can't see any obvious evidence for this usage for her. English language sources seem to use MacRuari and MacRuairi, and occasionally MacRuairidh, Macruari and Nic Ruari. Doubtless there are other variants in both English and Gaelic. The most common via ghits (just) seems to be MacRuari and that is where I shall move it to. As the article is up for a DYK, it would be helpful if further suggested moves were discussed prior to any implementation. Ben Mac Dui 18:09, 26 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

She is called Mac Ruari in a lot of sources, but she is only called that through ignorance of Gaelic naming customs. Gbook search "Amy of the Isles" and you'll get more hits; she's usually called Amy rather than Amie. "Amy" or "Amie of the Isles" certainly isn't ideal, but it's better than this. What about "Amy of Garmoran"? Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 18:31, 26 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Amy of Garmoran has advantages - this form is used of her aunt Christina, and "of Garmoran" is also used of her brother and of Clanranald. However usage seems to be "Amy MacRuari (or MacRory or MacRury etc) of Garmoran" rather than the simpler title. I'd be quite happy with that but would prefer to avoid trying the patience of the DYK folks and wait a few days. Ben Mac Dui 07:38, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

So rather than waste lots of time explaining why it is wrong to DYK reviewers, maybe just wait until it's gone through DYK and move it to Amy of Garmoran? Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 10:13, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Part (a) yes please. Part (b) - I am curious. Is your aversion to "MacRuari" in its various forms that this is poor Gaelic, even tho' it is fairly commonplace in English language sources? I notice that there seems to be very little in the way of Wikipedia precedent for any particular form for women from Gaeldom in Category:Women of medieval Scotland. I don't feel strongly either way but 'Amy MacRuari' and 'Amy MacRuari of Garmoran' seem more widely used than 'Amy of Garmoran' itself. Ben Mac Dui 18:24, 27 April 2011 (UTC) PS Ditto Amy cf Amie.[reply]

A couple of things. 'Mac' is 'son' or 'male descendent', and it goes without saying that one really has to be male for this. :) Now, yes, a woman in modern English can be called Amy Roderickson, but surnames like this weren't around at the time. Someone being referred to as 'mac x' is usually a senior male descendent of x, leader of a kingroup claiming descent from x. Applying such names to the mass of the population is modern. Compare modern Scottish Gaelic and Icelandic surnaming practices in women. Flora Macdonald is Flòraidh NicDhòmhnaill, not Flòraidh MacDhòmhnaill. A woman of Amy's status would be referred to in reference to her lordship or to her father (who here actually has the same name as the kingroup ancestor). Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 19:00, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Understood (and I note Sellar's comments on his opening page of Hebridean Sea-Kings). What I am trying to tease out here is some kind set of general principles for this and future use. I don't see anything at WP:MEDSCOT and I think you are saying something like:

a) Use a style that is similar to that which would have been used at the time regardless of some modern usage (i.e. no surnames).

b) Use English for descriptive words ("of", "of the") unless there is a common name that does not use this form. (Mairead inghean Eachann?)

c) Use the most common such descriptor that fits the above?

I am also still curious about Amy vs Amie - and what you think the Gaelic name might be. Is "Euphemia" likely to be the Latin version? - (and yes I know its Greek). Ben Mac Dui 07:55, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Your rules seem fine to me, and generally the "of X2 name is very common. Hmm ... the Gaelic name. I'd need to see all the Latin forms. AFAICS the only reason to think her name is not Euphemia is that she is also, apparently, called "Amy". You never know. You would think that Marjory of Carrick was actually called Marjory, but Barbour calls her Marthok, which seems to me Martha with the diminutive suffic -oc (modern -ag). Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 10:49, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]