Talk:All-Poland Women's Strike

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Organizations

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Poland

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Women

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A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

Protest in Łódź, 25th October 2020 - 13.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 11:59, 29 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Logo

Interesting to see that the logo's colors are colors of so-called "Banderites". And they come out against Kaczynski who highly against Banderite movement. The black and red colors are not colors of Bandera or OUN, they were before times of Bandera and will remain thereafter. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 15:19, 31 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

De facto leader

Since a new editor had difficulty comparing a reference to the information in it, here's a quote: Jaroslaw Kaczynski, head of nationalist PiS and Poland's de facto leader from the source. The WP:LEAD to Jarosław Kaczyński has four references for Kaczyński's de facto status as the head of Poland: Since the 2015 victories of PiS, both in the presidential and parliamentary election, Kaczyński is considered to be the most important politician in Poland and one of the most influential European leaders. For this reason, in Poland he is called by some people the Chief of State (following the example of Józef Piłsudski).[1][2][3][4]. We could add some of those sources here if needed.

The fact is that Kaczyński has recently dramatically lost popular support, but within the effective state apparatus of Poland, he still appears to be in command. Boud (talk) 20:00, 27 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Graffiti on churches, masses disrupted - any relation to OSK?

@Semper liber sum and Trasz:. Sumper: there are many problems with the material you keep trying to insert:

there is no information in reliable sources attributing responsibility to OSK, so it is unclear what the relevance of this is to the protests on the OSK page;

Semper_liber_sum: I think citing the organizer herself Marta Lempart (interview with her, direct reliable source) is one of the best ways to clarify organizers' stance.

We do not have to write *all* organizers are responsible. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Semper liber sum (talk • contribs) 19:12, 7 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"attacked" is highly misleading - there was no violence used according to reliable sources;
"disrupted" is somewhat misleading - it gives no information on what the actions actually were or the claimed reasons for intervention;

Semper_liber_sum: Disrupted means stopped by the use of shouting etc, there are many recordings to prove this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Semper liber sum (talk • contribs) 19:12, 7 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"devastated" is false - graffiti is not "devastation" in English, it can often be a form of political protest;

Semper_liber_sum: Unwanted graffiti is a form of damage. Propose a better term then. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Semper liber sum (talk • contribs) 19:12, 7 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

it is usually impossible and pointless to try to claim what someone (such as Lempart) has "never" stated;

Semper_liber_sum: If someone can find her statement clearly condemning violence please give the reference. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Semper liber sum (talk • contribs) 19:12, 7 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

youtube is not a reliable source;

Semper_liber_sum: What is a better source than recording? Article in a press with clear biased standpoint like Gazeta Wyborcza? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Semper liber sum (talk • contribs) 19:12, 7 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

media controlled by PiS should generally be assumed to be biased in favour of the point of view of PiS, which controls the executive, legislative and judiciary powers in Poland, and the state-sponsored media; that doesn't exclude using it, but we have to keep this in mind given the need for sources with reputations for fact-checking;

Semper_liber_sum: The large part of corporate media is clearly against the government for many years. We shouldn't cite them as well? That is why we should not refer to opinion articles, but rely on the citations, documents, and recordings. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Semper liber sum (talk • contribs) 19:12, 7 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

If you have objections to the edits to the material you want to add, then discuss them here and obtain consensus first, especially when these relate to living people such as Marta Lempart. Boud (talk) 17:45, 7 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

We may be making progress here. :) Keep in mind the need for clarity: other people will read over this conversation and they need to know who said what, when they said it and what is was in response to. Please try to follow the usual indenting with :, ::, :*, ::*, and so on, and it is probably more readable to make a list of points than respond directly under each of mine.

If you can provide a source for Lempart making a statement in relation to the protests, then yes, we can use that. I think you did earlier, but let's please separate that from other items.
We have the past tense of the verb wikt:graffiti - the word "graffitied" accurately describes the spraying/painting of graffiti on churches. Whether or not that is "damage" is a matter of interpretation; it depends on the substance used, for example. Water paint is easily washed off.
Opinions about what OSK leaders should state publicly are opinions about ethics. Opinions have to be attributed. We don't have an attribution for the opinion that Lempart should condemn the use of graffiti. It is also difficult to get proof for a negative: see Burden of proof (philosophy)#Proving a negative.
Independent media in democracies are expected to be critical of governments, since governments hold power; "power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely". The case of Poland is worse than in most of the rest of the EU. Please read this link: executive, legislative and judiciary powers to understand the concept of separation of powers in democracies, which may help to understand the current situation in Poland. Please read WP:RS about sources in en.Wikipedia; you should find a discussion about why audio recordings, especially on Youtube, are not reliable sources for en.Wikipedia.
Disruptions: unless OSK members are specifically responsible for holding banners or protesting in churches as stated by a reliable source, then we cannot use that in this article. Wikipedia cannot claim that OSK holds responsibility for the wide anger in the Polish population against an organisation that has legal privileges in terms of not paying taxes and in avoiding criminal prosecution for sexual abuse cases.

Boud (talk) 20:00, 7 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Semper liber sum and Trasz: I've restored the Lempart quote, starting with the main quote presenting her point of view that those participating in the Church should rebel, and putting her response to the interviewer's statement more clearly in context. The aim of the new version of the text is to have a more reasonable flow, so that the reader sees why this is relevant to OSK - because an interviewer asked Lempart about it.

Feel free to discuss edits likely to be controversial here, so that we can obtain consensus. There's no point in edit warring. Boud (talk) 01:21, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]