From Talk:Ali/Archive4

name change

What is going on here? Why was Ali changed to Ali ibn Abu Talib? There is no disambiguation page for Ali, and it's better to use the most simple name. And not only that, why was it changed to Abi and not Abu? Cuñado - Talk 17:56, 22 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Someone please respond. I'm going to change the page title and I don't want someone to say that I didn't try to discuss it. Cuñado

- Talk 16:44, 24 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Abi and Abu are interchangeable and depend on their position in the sentence. I'm not sure when the correct useage applies for each so I won't comment on that. There is a disambig. page for Ali (Ali (disambiguation)), so having his full name provides better understanding as to which Ali the article is about (since there are many other Ali's listed in the disambig. page). Stoa 19:42, 24 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Cunardo, you need to wait days, not hours. People have lives and stuff. Check out the situation with the disambiguation page. Someone may have decided that Ali deserves a disambiguation page, and then people can come here. That makes sense to me. There are other Alis in the world. As for Abi Talib rather than Abu Talib -- as I understand it, that IS the correct version, that the word changes in a new environment. After some initial confusion, we started using Abi Talib throughout WP and it would be a major task to change everything. Hundreds of articles are involved. Zora 19:23, 24 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Once again Zora, you're my arch nemesis. Cuñado

- Talk 19:37, 24 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There's a Cory Doctorow novel called Someone comes to town, someone leaves town (or something like that), available as a free ebook, and in it there's an account of a fictional discussion between a gung-ho community wi-fi enthusiast and a guy who works for the telco. The telco guy explains, "This telco is like a battleship. It weighs a lot; it has momentum. We're trying to change it, but it's slow. It's like trying to change the direction the ship is heading by tapping on the prow with your finger." Inertia of the installed base. If something is outrageously horribly WRONG we of course have to change the hundreds of articles necessary, but if it's just a matter of judgment, not universally accepted, then the work necessary to make the change outweighs any benefits from the change.

I wish I had a copy of the Encyclopedia of Islam, 2nd ed. I'd be willing to go with their article headings in case of doubt, if we don't have an installed base problem. Zora 19:49, 24 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It took me awhile, but I found a usage note on the subject.

When the parent in a nasab is referred to by his kunya, the word abu becomes abi, e.g., Muhammad’s son-in-law was ‘Ali ibn Abi Talib, ‘Ali the son of Abu Talib, or ‘Ali, the son of the father of Talib.[1]

So I was wrong about Abu vs Abi, but I still think that we should be able to use Ali as the page title. It redirects here, and what I meant is that the Ali page is not the disambiguation page. If Ali redirects here, then we can just use it as the page title (as it was for ages). The intro already has a link to a disambiguation page either way. Do you have any objection to moving it back to Ali? The issue of how many pages link here is rather irrelevant to the discussion. There are 20 redirects to this page, and as long as they all point the same place then it doesn't make any difference. Whoever changes the name has to throw in an extra 2 minutes to change the redirects also. Currently there are hundreds of redirects from Ali, and only a few actually pointing to Ali ibn Abi Talib. Cuñado

- Talk 01:03, 25 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I just realized that I'm too exhausted to give an informed opinion here. What you say sounds plausible, but I'd have to check to be sure. Um, could you ask a few of the admins who are involved in the Islam-related articles, say Gren or Pepsidrinka, and see what they have to say? I'll go with what they say. I just put in a hard weekend trying to finish an editing job on time and it's going to take me a day or two to recover. Zora 07:42, 25 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think the Manual of Style dictates that the most common name be used for the page. Now in this instance, there are many people named "Ali" who could potentially be called "Ali" in a given context and the audience would know who the reference was to. However, I'm inclined to say that of all the notable people named "Ali", Ali ibn Abi Talib is the most common. I'd support a move back to Ali. If there was some sort of consensus to move it with "ibn....", I would suggest moving it to Ali ibn Abu Talib as that seems to be how his full name is written in most English texts, as far as I can recall. Zora can correct me if I'm mistaken. I don't recall ever seeing Ali ibn Abi Talib in a text designed for non-Arabic speaking people. It is probably the most correct, though that doesn't mean we must go with the most correct name all the time. Common names win over correct names the vast majority of the time. Pepsidrinka 17:39, 25 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Pepsidrinka that a general reference to "Ali" with no context is most likely to refer to this Ali. Even if there was a need for Ali to be a disambiguation page, this title Ali ibn Abi Talib, or the other version Ali ibn Abu Talib, is an inappropriate title - most English speakers do not know the name of Ali's father, so this is a confusing and useless disambiguation. Ali (Caliph) or Ali (Shi'a Imam) or Ali (Caliph and Shi'a Imam) woulld seem to be the appropriate way to disambiguate. But I don't see any reason that Ali should be a disambiguation page. It seems like this page gets moved every few months without any discussion, and I don't see why we should have to wait a while to discuss it to move it back. It should stay at Ali until there's a consensus to move it somewhere else, which there clearly isn't in this case. john k 17:49, 25 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I've moved it back, on the grounds that "Ali" was a name agreed to by consensus, and that the move was made without any discussion. If we come to a consensus that the page should be moved back to some disambiguated title, we can do that, but until then, it should stay here. john k 17:56, 25 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. While its not a huge deal where it is to me, it should not move without discussion. I've protected the page against page moves so in the event there is a consensus to move it, it can be put on Wikipedia:Requested moves or any other admin can move it. Pepsidrinka 19:14, 25 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I personally have not decided on which title is better "Ali" or "Ali ibn...", however I think if we do use his full name Ali should redirect here and Ali (disambiguation) should remain the dab page. This is by far and away the most important usage of Ali so we needn't nest it behind a dab page. I think the move back was a good idea because there was never any consensus for the first move. gren グレン 07:18, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

change of title

I suggest moving this to ‘Ali. I have been trying to format Arabic titles to be the correct transliteration and include the ayin character. It's the way Britanica does it[2], as well as any other academic sources. Cuñado - Talk 05:03, 9 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No, PLEASE, do not do that, per Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (Islam-related articles)/names!--Striver 01:07, 13 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]