From Talk:Ali/Archive4

Ali as spiritual teacher

Hi Zora,

First of all, Merry Christmas!

According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali : “most famous collection of Ali's speeches and letters is the Peak of Eloquence (Arabic: Nahj al-Balāgha).”

I did a quick search and find out that “surely, the likeness of this world is that of a snake: it is soft to touch, and deadly poisonous. The ignorant child is distracted by it, and the one with understanding and intellect is cautious of it. So turn away from what fascinates you in it, for how little of it stays with you. “ is quoted from the Peak of Eloquence, letter no. 68. It is a pretty famous saying of Ali and deserves to be included.

Would you please let me know what your concerns are regarding the quotes from Ali? Is it just the sources?

Thanks. P.S. I didn't delete Mazar-i-sharif reference. Somebody else did it. There can be more than one anon :)

An anon added a bit re Ali teaching a certain spiritual practice. I don't think that this can be stated as fact. From what I've read about Sufism and other such spiritual practices, a great many traditions trace their practices back to Ali -- however, since the practices became widespread many centuries after Ali's death, academics believe that it is much more likely that they are late inventions. Perhaps we should have a section on Sufism and Ali, in which both opinions (practices taught by Ali and practices merely attributed to Ali) can be laid out. Zora 07:46, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Quotes -- Three or four quotes is enough. Short quotes. If it's going to be too long, then it should be in Wikisource, not in the article. Enthusiasts tend to want more more more of their heroes and favorites, whether it's more quotes or more pictures of actresses, whatever. You may think that it will create enthusiasm for your favorite -- instead, it bores readers and makes them think less of your hero. Short and pithy is what's required. Zora 05:21, 27 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I agree Zora. But I have another complain. You said many spiritual traditions such as Sufism trace their practices back to Ali. Its reason is that he had a very simple life style. While I think this was a very important characteristic of Ali, the article does not even have a hint to that. I think it is not fair. Even it does not mention that Muslims think that way. It is true because at least many spiritual traditions that stress on simplicity of life-style trace their practices back to Ali. Following, I have provided some evidence to support the point that he has a simple life. If not enough I can provide more

1. The seventeenth-century theologian, Henry Stubbe in [An Account of the Rise and Progress of Mohammedanism, 1705, p. 83] writes: “He had a contempt of the world, its glory and pomp, he feared God much, gave many alms, was just in all his actions, humble and affable; of an exceeding quick wit and of an ingenuity that was not common, he was exceedingly learned, not in those sciences that terminate in speculations but those which extend to practice.”

2. Ali’s response to the people of Medina beseeched him to accept the mantle of Calipha: "I swear by the Creator of this Universe that had they not sworn unconditional allegiance to me; had they not manifested profound gratitude for my accepting their rulership; had not the presence of helpers and supporters made it incumbent upon me to defend the faith; and had Allah, the Almighty not taken a promise from the learned to put a check upon the luxurious and vicious lives of Oppressors and tyrants as well as to try to reduce the pangs of poverty and starvation of the oppressed and downtrodden, and had He not made it incumbent upon them to secure back the usurped rights of the weak from the mighty and powerful oppressors, I would even now have left the rulership of this State as I did earlier and would have allowed it to sink into anarchy and chaos. Then you would have seen that in my view the glamour of a vicious life of your world is no better than the sneezing of a goat". (Sermon—7, Peak of Eloquence)

3. "Indeed Allah has made it obligatory that the true and just Imams should lead their lives in a simple way and keep their souls under check so that they go side by side with the poor people, who may not suffer from a feeling of deprivation". (Sermon—204, Peak of Eloquence)

I think you go astray if you trace all this to Ali. All the descriptions of Muhammad's family life emphasize his total disregard for luxurious food, clothing, and surroundings. In Ibn Sa'd, there's a tradition that Muhammad said that the only worldly things in which he took pleasure were women and perfume. I just finished editing the article on Abu Dharr; there's another early Muslim who felt that spending money on luxury was an offense to God. Ali to some extent "stood for" the early, austere understanding of Islam, but he wasn't the only one who felt that Uthman and his relatives had taken a wrong turn.

But that's all irrelevant to the point that I was making re various Sufi orders tracing their teachings to Ali. Some went back to Abu Bakr, some to Ali. Is there a list at Sufism, one to which we could link? If not, there should be. Zora 07:10, 27 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Zora, I was wrong in thinking that all this traces back to Ali. Thanks for correcting me. Unfortunately I just have an idea of Sufism and don't know much. Sorry for taking your time but Do you think it would be good to insert "All the descriptions of Muhammad's family life emphasize his total disregard for luxurious food, clothing, and surroundings. In Ibn Sa'd, there's a tradition that Muhammad said that the only worldly things in which he took pleasure were women and perfume." into the article regarding Muhammad? I couldn't find anything about the Muhammad's family life in that article.

-> I changed my mind, it is not neccessary. Thanks.

Zora, I have argued about Raids at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Ali/Raids . Your attention is appreciated.