Talk:Ali-Qoli Khan Qajar

GOCE Edit Request

Hello! In response to a request from @LouisAragon, I've completed my first pass on this article. My first step was to edit heavily with regard to pronouns and their antecedents first (who is he? he did what now?) to sort out the narrative before further edits to tighten up the language. This text seemed to avoid the Oxford comma and was "lightly" British, so I went with that.

Some possibly appropriate next steps that I'm not qualified to evaluate:

• Comparing the main body here with the history described in Agha Mohammad Khan Qajar? I cannot evaluate the facts/details presented there with what is presented here, esp. military campaigns and battles.
  • For instance, should we incorporate Lotf Ali Khan more directly in the story? Other details?
  • Should we incorporate the other brothers more? Both Hossein Qoli Khan Qajar and Morteza Qoli Khan Qajar have pages that could use attention. They don't seem particularly treacherous, though, based on the current info in their articles.
  • In was perhaps intended to gain authority over central Iran, does this mean Ali-Qoli Khan was engaged in a ruse (fooling the Zands to actually control central Iran for Agha, not for Ali-Q himself)?
• Identifying some places in this story, such as:
  • In invite Ali-Qoli to the palace in Tehran, is this Golestan Palace? If so, would including this fact be relevant?
  • In Subsequently, Ali-Qoli would play a pivotal role in subduing Khvar..., can we identify this location as one of the places mentioned at Khwar?
• Organizational and other:
  • Should we remove the heading "Biography" and push all its subheadings up 1 level?
  • Some more sources? I don't have access to the best sources in general, nor can I evaluate their reliability in this field.
  • Probably some other things? I'm not an expert in this field and not 100% sure what is required of GA.

Feedback is very much welcome. Thanks! — LumonRedacts 19:23, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Ali-Qoli Khan Qajar/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Figureskatingfan (talk · contribs) 18:19, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

Based upon the fact that no improvements have been made to this bio since October and because none of the GOCE suggestions (made in September) have been addressed, I think that it should be quick-failed. I'll put it on hold for seven days, though, to give the nominator (LouisAragon) more time to work on it. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 18:19, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

Hi Figureskatingfan. Sorry, but I think there has been a misunderstanding. These were just WP:GF suggestions by LumonRedacts, not something I considered a necessity. They even admitted the following; "I'm not an expert in this field and not 100% sure what is required of GA." Perhaps a few of the points he made could be taken into consideration, but I think it's unfair to quick-fail this based on that. I assume you checked the article, what were your impressions? - LouisAragon (talk) 22:42, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

@LouisAragon, while I'm familiar with the GA criteria, I'm not an expert in this area, either. That shouldn't disqualify LumonRedacts or me from reviewing it, though. It concerns me that no improvements have been made for over six months. I'd like you to at least address the commennts made by the GOCE reviewer, though. I think that they're reasonable questions, especially possibly including more background info (if you think that's appropriate; if not, I'd like to hear why). I also would like to hear your opinion about the points in the "Organizational and other" list. You can respond to the points under this GA review if you like. Then I'll do a more formal review. Remember, you can always ask for a second opinion. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 16:07, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

@Figureskatingfan:

Alright, let's go:

For instance, should we incorporate Lotf Ali Khan more directly in the story? Other details? -- No, he isn't mentioned once in the two sources I mainly used, that is Iranica and EI3.

Should we incorporate the other brothers more? Both Hossein Qoli Khan Qajar and Morteza Qoli Khan Qajar have pages that could use attention. They don't seem particularly treacherous, though, based on the current info in their articles -- Same as above, I don't think it's neccesary to mention them more. And both of their articles needs to be rewritten.

In was perhaps intended to gain authority over central Iran, does this mean Ali-Qoli Khan was engaged in a ruse (fooling the Zands to actually control central Iran for Agha, not for Ali-Q himself). -- The source unfortunately doesn't go into more depth than that.

In invite Ali-Qoli to the palace in Tehran, is this Golestan Palace? If so, would including this fact be relevant? -- Unfortunately, the source doesn't mention which palace.

In Subsequently, Ali-Qoli would play a pivotal role in subduing Khvar..., can we identify this location as one of the places mentioned at Khwar? -- Added a link.

Should we remove the heading "Biography" and push all its subheadings up 1 level? -- I wouldnt say so, I think it's fine.

Some more sources? I don't have access to the best sources in general, nor can I evaluate their reliability in this field -- I have made heavy use of EI3 and Iranica, both which are currently the best sources avaliable for this person.

- LouisAragon (talk) 20:20, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

Louis, thank you very much. I appreciate your openness and willingness to put up with this. I'll do a more formal review today or tomorrow; it looks very likely that this bio will pass. Also, thanks for all your hard work with what's gotta be an obscure topic. Best, Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 18:18, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

@Figureskatingfan: Looking forward to it! And no, thank you for your time. :-) - LouisAragon (talk) 01:21, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

I will start my review now. I typically fill out a template and include a prose and source review underneath. I also tend to do a copyedit as I go, instead of directing the nominator to make changes, unless I have a question. Please feel free to revert any changes I may make to the article if you disagree with them. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 18:06, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

@LouisAragon, As I was looking at this more closely, I noticed that the URL in ref2 is the same as the URL in ref1. Since so much of this bio depends upon both sources, I'm going to halt things here until you correct that, so I can check for plagarism and close paraphrasing. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 18:45, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

@Figureskatingfan: The URL's appear to be different sources to me. Am I missing something? - LouisAragon (talk) 20:37, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

Hmm, don't know what happened. My regrets, will get back to review shortly. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 21:35, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a. (prose, spelling, and grammar):

The prose is adequate for GA, although it's a bit awkward in places. I suggest that you ask another editor to copyedit your prose, although it's not required to pass to GA. If you like, I can do a more exhaustive copyedit; just let me know. I can't see this bio eligible for FA, unless you're able to find the sources that would further expand it and make it eligible.

b. (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists) Lead is long enough, layout and word choice adequate.

1. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a. (reference section):

   This point has been addressed above; there are only four sources, but the nominator has assured us that they're the ones available, which I'll AGF. They are all formatted correctly.

   b. (citations to reliable sources):

   My only issue with the sources is that three out of the four sources aren't accessible; they are either behind a paywall or they're books that I (or anyone else) can't easily consult. I recognize that this might be due to the topic, so there's nothing wrong with that. Also, half of your sources (ref1 and ref2) are encyclopedias, which are primary sources. Again, that may be unavoidable due to your topic, so it's acceptable for a GA. It looks like you've done a good job avoiding close paraphrasing from ref2, which is another reason to AGF for the other sources. Also, the 1st paragraph in the "Succession claim and downfall" isn't cited.

Added a ref for that alinea.

Ok, thanks. Changed to check mark. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 18:11, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

1. c. (OR):

   d. (copyvio and plagiarism):

   Since the sources aren't accessible, I'm unable to check for OR and if the text has been copied or too closely paraphrased. As a result, I'm going to AGF for this as well.

2. It is broad in its coverage.

   a. (major aspects): This bio ends abruptly, right after Baba Khan's succession. What happened to Ali-Qoli Khan after that? When and where did he die? I think you should include this information, if it's available.

Information about this death can be seen in the penultimate alinea: "When Ali-Qoli Khan arrived, he was not allowed to enter the palace accompanied by his armed attendants. Ali-Qoli Khan was physically obliged to bow to Baba Khan and, cursing him all the while, was led to a room where he was blinded. Ali-Qoli Khan was then sent to Barforush (now Babol) in Mazandaran, where he remained until his death in 1824.[2][1]" That's all we know as far as his final days are concerned.

Ok, that's fine. Thanks for the clarification. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 18:11, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

1. b. (focused): Not knowing much about the topic, I'm AGFing that this bio is both broad and focused.

2. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias: AGFing, for same reasons as above.

3. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.: As expressed above, I have the opposite concern, that this bio has been neglected for several months. Although my concern was never directly addressed, I assume that the nominator was waiting for this GAN and didn't think that work needed to be done. There are no edit wars.

4. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.

   For the most part, I like your images. Are there any available of Ali-Qoli Khan? I think that you should place the image of Agha Mohammad Khan at the left, since he's looking towards the right and so your images are staggered. Captions all look fine. All images have valid copyright tags.

Done, but the text (visually, in terms of lay-out) looks a bit off now, doesn't it? At least when using my laptop. Edit: Unfortunately not, there are no pictures/images of Ali-Qoli Khan available currently.

Thanks. IMO, I think it looks better. I'm on a laptop, too. Users with different machines will see it differently, though. It's not a huge issue, so if you're more comfortable with the original version, go ahead and change it back. Thanks for answering my question. That's unfortunate, but not surprising. Keep on the outlook for more, though; something might pop up later on. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 18:11, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, they've been uploading a lot of antique Iranian works in the past few years, so I wouldn't be too surprised if an image of this figure pops up in the future. Will definitely keep an eye on it!

1. Overall:

   Pass/fail: Remains on hold until comments are addressed.

Prose review

I don't have a lot of comments re: this bio's prose. As I state above, I think that you should ask for more eyes to look at it.

• Early life:

I removed some repetition in the first paragraph.

Please excuse this stupid question, but what name order convention are you using? You seem to consistently use the Eastern convention with all the names in this bio, so does that mean that Ali-Qoli Khan is his family name? If so, you should include the appropriate template.

Sorry, could you explain this differently? I have no idea what you mean. Thank you

No problem, I probably didn't explain it correctly. It has to do with the differences between the Eastern convention of naming and the Western one; see Personal name#Name order. Throughout this bio, you refer to the subject as "Ali-Qoli Khan." Is that his, to use the Western convention, his first name or his last (family) name? An example of a bio that uses the template is Yuna Kim. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 18:11, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

Ah I see, got ya, thank you for the additional explanation. Well, I basically just use what WP:RS calls him. There's not much else to it I think.

After the defeat and death of his father in 1759, Ali-Qoli Khan was brought to Qazvin as a captive of the Zand dynasty, Karim Khan. This isn't a complete sentence. "Karim Khan" is in the wrong place. How about: "After the defeat and death of his father in 1759, Ali-Qoli Khan was brought to Qazvin as a captive of Karim Khan of the Zand dynasty."

Done.

• Campaigns:

Ali-Qoli Khan repented before Agha Mohammad Khan, now engaging in the cycle of betrayal and reconciliation that characterized Agha Mohammad Khan's relationships with his other brothers. Awkward and a little unclear. Also, I don't see anything about Agha Mohammed's relationships with his brothers, so I would cut that part of the sentence. How about: "Ali-Qoli Khan then reconciled with Agha Mohammad Khan."

There is though throughout the article? Just to cite a few examples: "Nevertheless, Ali-Qoli Khan's support of Agha Mohammad Khan did help the latter in 1779–1782 during early conflicts with his brothers over power.[2][3]" .... "At this point, Ali-Qoli Khan had become the only surviving brother of Agha Mohammad Khan who had not been exiled or physically disabled."

Ok, that's fine. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 18:11, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

That's all; I believe I am finished with this review. You have seven days to address my feedback and concerns. Thanks and best, Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 04:56, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

@Figureskatingfan: Done. - LouisAragon (talk) 16:31, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

Okay great. Just answer the few questions above and we'll be good to go. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 18:11, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

@Figureskatingfan: Done #2. - LouisAragon (talk) 16:49, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Okay, everything looks fine now. Will go pass this now. Congrats and keep up the good work. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 18:36, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

@Figureskatingfan: Appreciate it, thank you once again for your time! - LouisAragon (talk) 15:23, 28 March 2023 (UTC)