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Talk:Alfred Sully/GA1

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GA Review

[edit]
Passed. Hog Farm Talk 01:00, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Nominator: Dwkaminski (talk · contribs) 13:23, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Reviewer: Hog Farm (talk · contribs) 14:40, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]


  • "Sully was born in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, on May 22, 1880" - the year is obviously a typo here
  • Donner60 - Does Civil War High Commands have an entry for Sully? That source is usually fairly authoritative. It looks to me like the better sources here tend to go with the 1821 date. Hog Farm Talk 03:08, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    May 22, 1820. Eicher, John H., and David J. Eicher, Civil War High Commands. Stanford: Stanford University Press, 2001. ISBN 978-0-8047-3641-1. p. 518. Also May 22, 1820. Warner, Ezra J. Generals in Blue: Lives of the Union Commanders. Baton Rouge: Louisiana State University Press, 1964. ISBN 978-0-8071-0822-2. p. 488. Donner60 (talk) 03:38, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I added Eicher(s) as an additional source for the 1820 birth year and Warner for other statements in the article. I'm leaning toward leaving the birth year as either 1820 or 1821 due to the discrepancies in the references, but will take your recommendation. Dwkaminski (talk) 13:20, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • The American Heritage source also indicates when he entered West Point - would that be useful to note in the article?
  • "and the Mexican-American War where he fought in the Siege of Veracruz" - indicate the year that this occurred
  • " He commanded US troops out of Fort Leavenworth and occupied the city of St. Joseph, Missouri, declaring martial law. Violent secessionist uprisings in the city during the early Civil War prompted Sully's occupation" - the source does not mention Fort Leavenworth by name and does not mention martial law
  • ""Alfred Sully biography". Archived from the original on 2013-07-07. Retrieved 2013-07-07." - this probably isn't a reliable source
  • "admin. "Homepage". Episcopal News Service. Retrieved 2022-09-16." - this is a link to the homepage of a website; the content this is supporting isn't on the homepage and can't be easily located
  • " "Dakota Expeditions of Sibley and Sully". www.encyclopedia.com. Encyclopedia.com. Retrieved 8 July 2024." - what makes this a reliable source?
  • It meets the requirements of WP:RS which allows for encyclopedias as reliable sources. encyclopedia.com lists in it's bibliography Clodfelter as a source. I would use that reference but the specific pages are not included in the google books limited view for Clodfelter. Dwkaminski (talk) 14:31, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Dwkaminski and Hog Farm: Pope's plan is described in Hatch, Thom. The Blue, The Gray, & The Red: Indian Campaigns of the Civil War. Mechanicsburg, PA: Stackpole Books, 2003. ISBN 978-0-8117-0016-0 at pages 108-109. It does not mention Sully's headquarters at Sioux City, Iowa. Note that Sully was delayed by low water on the Missouri River and could not transport his supplies until later. By that time Sibley's actions were finished and he had returned to base. The battle casualties for the Battle of Whitestone Hill shown in this article are inconsistent with Hatch, p. 114: "At daybreak, Sully entered the village and took possession of 156 prisoners, 124 women and children and 32 warriors. His troopers had killed an estimated 200 Sioux, while the army had suffered 22 dead and 38 wounded." The article on the Battle of Whitestone Hill states "Sully's casualties were approximately 22 killed and 38 wounded. No reliable estimates of Sioux killed and wounded are available, with estimates ranging from 100 to 300, including women and children. Captured Sioux totaled 156, including 32 adult males." The citation which appears to support this statement, one sentence later, times out when clicked. Another source at the end of the paragraph, unavailable to me, may or may not have this information. In Cozzens, Peter. General John Pope: A Life for the Nation. Urbana, IL: University of Illinois Press, 2000. ISBN 978-0-252-02363-7 at page 233: "...the supply shortage compelled Sibley to call off the chase. An August 1, he began the return march to Minnesota....he [Pope] prodded Sully on August 5. Page 234: "Instead, stung into action by Pope's censure, he [Sully] marched from Fort Pierre on August 13." Page 234: "On September 3....In a short fight, Sully killed 150 Indians and took 156 prisoners, burned tons of buffalo meat and supplies, and burned the hostile camp. Safisfied the survivors had scattered, Sully returned to Fort Pierre three days afterward." As Josephy in the next citation notes at page 144, Sully's delay much irritated Pope who thought a cavalry force should have been able to move and he blamed Sully for the failure of the two armies to meet and trap the Sioux. Finally, in Josephy, Jr., Alvin M., The Civil War in the American West. New York: Alfred A. Knopf, Inc., 1991. ISBN 978-0-394-56482-1 pages 145-146: "At a cost of 22 dead and 38 wounded, Sully's troopers had killed more than 200 Sioux. The soldiers destroyed all of the Indians' posessions, including [146] their lodges and more than 400,000 pounds of dried buffalo meat." Donner60 (talk) 05:48, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Added Hatch as a reference in the article but cannot view the pages that discuss the casualties at Battle of Whitestone Hill. Much of the detail you add above may be appropriate for the Battle of Whitestone Hill page but I'll leave off the Alfred Sully page. Dwkaminski (talk) 13:26, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • " Alexander, Kathy. "Fort Rice, North Dakota". www.legendsofamerica.com. Legends of America. Retrieved 4 July 2024." - what makes this a reliable source?

More to follow later. Hog Farm Talk 00:26, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I believe I addressed your initial comments. Let me know if you have any additional comments. Thanks! Dwkaminski (talk) 12:04, 25 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • " Sully was promoted to brigadier general on September 26 for his actions leading his regiment at the Battle of Antietam" - the source does not mention the date of his promotion, which can be found in Warner
  • "On May 1, 1863, he was removed from command by his division commander, brigadier general John Gibbon after failing to suppress a mutiny by the 34th New York when several of its companies refused to fight on the grounds that their two-year enlistment term was about to expire. Gibbon attempted to have Sully court-martialed for dereliction of duty, but a court of inquiry found him innocent of these charges. After the charges were dropped, he was sent West to the Dakota Territory to serve in the Sioux Wars" - none of this is supported by the source at all. All but the last sentence about being sent to the Dakota Territory can be supported by Stephen W. Sears, Chancellorsville, pp. 216-217
  • "In 1869, Sully was appointed Superintendent of Indian Affairs for Montana" - can this be rephrased somewhat? It is the exact wording as is found in the source
  • " The issue was resolved with the arrival of General Philip Sheridan" - more that is verbatim from the source
  • The section about the eastern theater is a mess. The article states that he has present at Savage's Station, White Oak Swamp, Malvern Hill, and Glendale, and then goes on to state that he fought in the "Seven Days Battle" as if this were a separate thing. The Seven Days Battles was a campaign, that encompassed several battles including those named beforehand. This was in June-July 1862. Next mentioned is Fredericksburg in December 1862. After this we go back to Seven Pines in May-June 1862, then skip ahead to South Mountain in September 1862, and then go back to March 1862 for his promotion to colonel, and then back to September 1862 for Antietam and his promotion, and then we get back on the chronological track with May 1863 and Chancellorsville
  • The May 1 1863 mutiny should be connected to the battle of Chancellorsville
  • "He was promoted to colonel on March 4, 1862, for his actions at Malvern Hill" - this cannot be accurate. The Battle of Malvern Hill did not occur until several months after his promotion to colonel
  • "Sully established headquarters at Sioux City, Iowa, and a base camp at Fort Pierre" - this is close paraphrasing from the source
  • "He was brevetted lieutenant colonel for his performance at Seven Pines" - is this a brevet for the Regular Army rank?

Can you please go through the article and check all of the citations for accuracy, close paraphrasing, and make sure that they support the text they are citing? I don't feel inclined to have to go through line-by-line through the article and check all of the citations as part of this review. Hog Farm Talk 01:12, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Dwkaminski - please let me know once you've checked all of the citations and you think this is ready for me to resume. Hog Farm Talk 22:16, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Will do. Getting there slowly but surely. Im up to the end of the career section. Thanks! Dwkaminski (talk) 17:45, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Major General John Pope ordered general Henry Hastings Sibley to march against the Sioux to drive them west toward the Missouri River, and Sully to proceed north to intercept the Sioux before they crossed the river" - any hope of getting a time range for when this occurred?
  • ""Battle of Whitestone Hill (September 3, 1863), North Dakota State Historic Site". Archived from the original on 2008-05-16. Retrieved 2008-09-27." - this citation needs the publisher added into there
  • In the Sibley-Sully expedition, there's some missing material. Sully was stuck at Fort Pierre was Sibley pushed on, and Pope criticized Sully for his lack of doing anything while the natives escaped. This prodded Sully into action, which led to Whitestone Hill. After Whitestone Hill, Sully returned to Fort Pierre. This is from Peter Cozzens's biography of John Pope pages 233-234. I have a print copy, while you should be able to access it for free from here. Cozzens also gives rather different casualties for the natives. I would trust Cozzens, a well respected modern historian, over a short 1888 nonscholarly work written by a participant trying to estimate how many of the enemy were killed in the heat of battle.
  • Unfortunately the Cozzens reference online is limited view. I added the content based on what Donner60 provided and listed both figures from a first hand report from a U.S. soldier and the modern historian estimates. Dwkaminski (talk) 19:31, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Sully ordered the heads of the two native Americans responsible placed on stakes overlooking the Missouri River as a warning" - Kelly says two, the other source implies that three natives were involved; I would just drop the "two" out of the article
  • "The Sioux warriors repeatedly charged the U.S. troops but were repelled by gunfire.[28] The U.S. troops fired upon the village with artillery, took possession of the hilltop" - this doesn't seem to be a particularly great description of this battle, which based on what I've read in books I have seems to have involved much more offensive action by Sully than this would imply. See Alvin Josephy The Civil War in the American West, pp. 149-151. Also on the Internet Archive here
  • The Josephy reference is limited view on archive.org. I have added additional detail on the Whitestone Hill battle from the nd.gov pages and to the Killdeer Mountain battle from the Michino reference. Dwkaminski (talk) 16:42, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Stopping for now after the Kildeer Mountain material; the above needs some work (with different sources in some cases). I think this article is improving significantly though. I'll be away from my books for most of next week and I won't be able to do much on this review until I get back. Hog Farm Talk 15:48, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've completed my responses to your additional comments. Let me know if there are others or if you have any questions/concerns about my responses. Thanks! Dwkaminski (talk) 16:43, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The U.S. troops suffered 9 deaths and the Sioux suffered 100" - per the source, the Sioux loss is Sully's estimate and this should be noted as such in the article; especially in the Plains Indian warfare, the army's estimate of opposing losses was not necessarily the most accurate
  • "From June to September 1867, he served in the Idaho Territory and fought in the Nez Perce War" - the Nez Perce War was in 1877, not 1867. The cited source actually has Sully "on special duty under the Interior Department, visiting various Sioux Bands on the Platte and Upper Missouri Rivers" from February to September 1867.
  • "and the U.S. troops became exhausted hauling heavy wagon trains through dense countryside" - I'm not seeing where it states that his men had become exhausted
  • The source states, "The Indians had made false trails in the sand to set up a trap for the cavalrymen. And, to make matters worse, Sully had difficulties coordinating wagon train and troop movements when he did engage the warriors. He was exhausted, losing men, and was soon forced to reassess his situation. He believed the Indian bands had moved further south beyond his reach, and that he could no longer pursue the warriors through the rugged country with a wagon train. He finally admitted that the Indians had the upper hand and were using their knowledge of the surrounding country successfully against his troops." Dwkaminski (talk) 14:04, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Cullum, George Washington. Biographical Register of the Officers and Graduates of the U.S. Military Academy from 1802 to 1867 - Volume 1. Bedford, Massachusetts: Applewood Books. p. 146. ISBN 978-1-4290-2129-6. Retrieved 30 June 2024." - this source contains a very detailed history of his post-Civil war assignments and should be used further to tie the later sections of the article together chronologically. For instance, his assignment to the retirement board isn't mentioned in our article, nor is the stationing in Louisiana.
  • "confederate" in "Confederate sympathizer" should be capitalized
  • "and Vine Deloria, Jr., a scholar, writer, and author of Custer Died for Your Sins." - source does not mention at all that Deloria Jr. was related to Sully
  • " was named in his honor when the town was formed in 1883" - should be county, not town

This is getting closer; I'll read through again once these are addressed. Hog Farm Talk 19:11, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've addressed your additional comments. Thank you for the detailed review. Please review again and let me know if anything else needs to change. Dwkaminski (talk) 15:06, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, from December 1873 to February 1874 and in Fort Vancouver from September 1876 to June 1877. From Fall 1866 to 1877, he served in the Idaho Territory and participated in the Nez Perce War" - is not quite what the source has. The Baton Rouge time frame is correct, but Cullum states that he commanded at Fort Vancouver from May 1874 to September 1876, and that he was then on a leave of absence from September 1876 to May 3 1877. On May 3, he then reassumed command at Fort Vancouver, which he commanded until June 1877. From June 21 to September 23 1877 was when he was in the Idaho Territory during the Nez Perce War, not fall 1866 to 1877 which the article currently states. This 1891 edition of Cullum allows the final gap to be filled in - he commanded at Fort Vancouver from September 23 1877 to his death.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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