Talk:Alfie Byrne

Untitled

I have discovered an article about Alfie Byrne. He is clearly the same person as Alfred Byrne so the two articles should be merged. The articles give different details about particular parts of his career. The Alfie article has more detail about his career in Dublin local government.

The only inconsistency I see is when Byrne served in the Seanad. I took the details in Alfred from the Oireachtas website which confirms the dates of his service in the Dáil and Seanad. The Alfie article is mistaken about the dates of the Seanad service. --Gary J 23:00, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Edits

Explaining my edits:

1. The Guardian article that is cited says that The Dubliner magazine that White publisher was sued for libel, as does this Telegraph article. It does not say that White was sued. And none of this has anything to do with Alfred Byrne who died before Tiger Woods and Elin Nordegren were born.
2. spell out acronyms on first use per WP:ACRONYM
3. "modelled" not "modeled" per Irish spelling
4. I've linked Mussolini, Hitler and the Brownshirts as relevant links
5. remove repeated links per WP:REPEATLINK
6. copyedits to improve readability

Ground Zero | t 15:23, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

Fascist?

Was Byrne a Fascist or did he have Fascist sympathies? Was he a Fascist for all of his career or part of it? Did he give a Nazi salute (its unclear from the picture), or was he going all with the crowd, like the Queen salute controversy? Snappy (talk) 17:44, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

Yes, he supported Mussolini, Hitler and Franco. Until he died, he supported the Franco regime. The picture is very clear, Alfie is the guy in the mayoral chain, giving a very evident Nazi salute with the Irish fascist leader (Eoin O'Duffy). Duffy based his group, the Blueshirts, on Hitler's Brownshirts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.226.164.102 (talk) 09:23, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

I am writing in my capacity as the curator of an exhibition about Alfie Byrne at the Little Museum of Dublin. I am also the director of the Little Museum of Dublin.

An anonymous contributor has made a series of alterations to the Wikipedia entry on Alfie Byrne, under a section that is presently titled ‘Fascist and antisemitic connections.’ Some of these alterations are backed up by bogus citations, or have no citations at all. Good work has been done by seasoned Wikipedia contributors in an effort to clean up the entry; however, there are still a great many issues.

For example, Dr Anne Dolan of the History Department in Trinity College is one of the leading experts on Irish history in the 20th Century. She wrote the Dictionary of Irish Biography entry on Alfie Byrne. This week Dr Dolan told me:

“I cannot recall finding any material in a variety of collections in the National Library and elsewhere that implied that Alfie Byrne was either anti-Semitic or ardently fascist in his outlook.”

However, Dr Dolan’s work on Alfie Byrne in the Dictionary of Irish Biography is today cited as evidence for the claim in the Wikipedia entry that Alfie Byrne “admired” Franco, Mussolini and Hitler; when in fact there is no reference to any of those people in Dr Dolan’s essay about Byrne.

“I am quite unnerved,” she told me by email, “by the fact that my DIB [Dictionary of Irish Biography] entry could have been interpreted as proof that Byrne was either an ardent fascist or an anti-Semite.”

Another expert on Alfie Byrne is historian David McEllin, whose essay about Byrne is in Leaders of the City, the official biography of Dublin’s Lord Mayors. Mr McEllin is also writing a full-scale biography of Byrne. This week he said:

“I found no evidence that he [Alfie Byrne] had any fascist sympathies or that he was in any way anti Semitic. Indeed, in my opinion it would be contrary to his nature to have such a disposition. Alfie was a bridge builder and stretched out the hand of friendship to those of other traditions.”

My colleagues and I have consulted the Jewish Representative Council of Ireland, leading historians of the period, as well as members of Byrne’s family and people who knew him. Our research suggests that the section entitled ‘Fascist and anti-semitic connections’ requires urgent attention. However, when we have tried to introduce some balance to the section within the last month, further allegations were introduced, again without proper citations, as soon as we made alterations to the section. (If you view the history of changes made to the page you will see what I mean.)

Here are some examples of the dubious claims within the section:

Byrne was a member of the Blueshirts, a paramilitary far-right organisation.

David McEllin, who has been researching Alfie Byrne’s life for many years, told us this week: “I am not aware that he was a Blueshirt.” And nowhere in the histories of the Blueshirts – by Professors Mike Cronin, Eunan O’Halpin and Maurice Manning – can we find proof that Alfie Byrne was a member of the organisation.

If Byrne were a member of the Blueshirts it would, of course, prove very little; nonetheless the claim appears to based on a hunch that because he was pictured at a reception for the Blueshirts in the Mansion House – where public meetings have been held by all sorts of groups since the foundation of the state – he was necessarily a member of the organisation. We can find no evidence to support the claim, and as there is no citation to support it on the page, the claim should surely be removed.

He presided over a large meeting of the Irish Christian Front (of which he was a member), a far-right organisation that consistently promoted virulently anti-Semitic views.

We have consulted books and manuscripts on the subject of the Irish Christian Front in the National Library of Ireland. We can find no evidence that Alfie Byrne was a member of the Christian Front. Equally, there is no reference to Byrne’s alleged membership to the Christian Front in any archival material from the Alfie Byrne archive or the National Archives of Ireland.

Despite addressing meetings of both the Blueshirts and the Christian Front as part of his long list of duties in his capacity as Lord Mayor of Dublin, we can find no evidence to support the claim that he was personally a member of either organisation.

This march was the largest far-right demonstration in Irish history. At this meeting, Jewish people were savagely blamed for all the ills of Europe.[3] http://comeheretome.com/2014/12/17/alls-loud-on-the-christian-front

The source cited states that “the first meeting of the organisation took place at the Mansion House on 28 August, and was addressed by a certain Alfie Byrne.” This article later references a march that took place in October in College Green. Byrne – who was, like many politicians in Ireland at the time, anti-communist – addressed a crowd of 12,000 people. In every press report that references Alfie Byrne, there is not a single reference to Jewish people or Judaism.

The Lord Mayor’s address is summarized in the Irish Independent of October 29th, 1936. In the report, Byrne quite clearly does not ‘savagely blame’ Jewish people for the ills of Europe, nor does he mention the Jewish community in his address at all. Byrne did, however, preside over the opening of a Jewish abattoir in Dublin one week later, on the 6th of November, 1936:

In fact, in an article from the Irish Independent from November 6th 1936 on the opening of the new abattoir, it is reported:

“Rev. A Gudansky said that living as they did in times of great stress the Jews appreciated very deeply the treatment meted out to them in this county. Ireland was the only place in the world which could boast of being free from all persecutions of other races and creeds. The Lord Mayor (Ald. Byrne T.D.) hoped the goodwill between the Jewish and Irish peoples in the city would continue. The building was a credit to the workmen employed and a tribute to those who advocated direct labour.”

Such statements indicate that contrary to the allegations of anti-semitism, the Lord Mayor had a very positive relationship with the Jewish community in Dublin. To imply otherwise is simply not fair.

Byrne was ultra-Catholic, believing that Rome's teachings should be legislated for in Ireland.[Maurice Curtis, A Challenge to Democracy: Militant Catholicism in Modern Ireland (Dublin: History Press, 2010); Tom Inglis, Moral Monopoly: The Moral Monopoly: The Rise and Fall of the Catholic Church in Modern Ireland (Dublin: University College Press, 1998); John Henry Whyte, Church and State in Modern Ireland, 1923-1979 (Dublin: Gill and Macmillan, 1980

Alfie Byrne was indeed Catholic, but was not ultra-Catholic, as the article states. Though he was granted the title of Knight Grand Cross of St. Sylvester by Pope Pius XI, his own son, Paddy Byrne, has told us on the record that Alfie “wasn’t very Catholic, he was just Catholic; as were most people in those days.”

Incidentally, the works cited as sources are studies on the history of Catholicism in Ireland. They provide no evidence to support this claim about Byrne. For example, Tom Inglis makes absolutely no mention of Alfred Byrne in Moral Monopoly: The Moral Monopoly: The Rise and Fall of the Catholic Church in Modern Ireland. John Henry Whyte mentions Byrne only once in Church and State in Modern Ireland, 1923-1979: saying Byrne and Peadar Cowan were running as Independents in the 1948 general election. He says nothing about Byrne’s religious views.

As far as we can see, the sources cited provide no evidence about the political or religious views of Alfie Byrne.

Like other far-right politicians of the 1930s, Byrne was an admirer of Francisco Franco, Benito Mussolini and Adolf Hitler.[4]

The entry on Alfie Byrne in the Dictionary of Irish Biography is cited as a source for this argument. But, as I have already said, the entry does not make any reference to support this claim. In fact, there is not a single reference to Franco, Mussolini or Hitler in that entry.

For the record, no one disputes the claim that Alfie Byrne was a supporter of Franco in the mid-1930s. This position does not make him in anyway unusual in the Ireland of the time. Indeed it was an extremely popular position in Catholic Ireland; fascist sympathies were a response to the largely anti-Communist sentiment in Ireland.

In 1938, while Dubliners on O'Connell Street demonstrated against the entry of Italian naval ships into Dublin port, Byrne personally gave a gift to the commander of the Italian ships as a token of his respect for Mussolini's regime.[5] http://comeheretome.com/2012/09/20/fascist-warships-in-dublin-bay-july-1938/

Here is a direct quote from the cited source: “Eamon de Valera [the Irish Prime Minister] was among those who attended a reception in honour of the men at the residence of the Italian minister in Foxrock, along with the Lord Mayor of Dublin.”

The Lord Mayor is reported to have given a gift to the commander of the ship: “In the end, the Italians left Dublin with a silver replica of the Ardagh Chalice, a gift from Alfie Byrne, the Lord Mayor.”

This gift is not described as a token of respect for Mussolini’s regime, and to state as such is a blatant misreading of the facts. Also, for the author to say that Byrne ‘personally’ gave the gift implies that he gave the gift in his personal capacity, when in all likelihood it was given in his capacity as Lord Mayor of Dublin.

Using the word ‘personally’ at this point is, we submit, unfair and probably inaccurate – unless the person making that claim can produce a receipt for the silver replica that was actually written out to Alfie Byrne (rather than Dublin Corporation) surely the word ‘personally’ should be removed.

Byrne was photographed giving a Nazi salute along with W. T. Cosgrave and Eoin O'Duffy (commander of the Blueshirts).[6]

This is a key piece of ‘evidence’ in the argument that Alfie Byrne was a fascist – yet it proves nothing. The gesture in question was not known as a Nazi salute at that time. It was a Roman straight-armed salute. The distinction may seem academic. It is not.

The user ‘Snappy’ makes a good point in this regard. In response to the recent circulation of a similar photograph of a young Queen Elizabeth giving a raised-arm salute, Catherine Shanahan of the Irish Examiner observed that “the Irish Examiner archive contains other images from the era where crowds have arms raised in right-armed salute at various Blueshirt rallies, at a time when the World had yet to recognise the evils of Nazism or see the gesture as a signal of absolute obedience to the world’s most infamous dictator.”

As the gesture was not widely associated with Nazism or Nazi ideology at the time this photograph was taken, it cannot be described as a Nazi salute in this context.

Speaking at a symposium on the 75th anniversary of the founding of Fine Gael, Professor Mike Cronin of Boston University said: “People wore uniforms and there was nothing new in it. It is the whole linkage of the shirt with the right-armed salute, and so on, which posthumously gets the Blueshirts into a lot of problems.”

Byrne was personally and politically very close to the fascists and anti-semites Oliver J. Flanagan, Patrick Belton, Charles Bewley, Gearoid Sean Caoimhin O'Cuinneagain and James Burke.[7]

This is perhaps the most egregious example of wishful thinking in this section. The anonymous author tries to imply that Alfie Byrne was a fascist because he knew some people who were sympathetic to fascist views in 1930s Ireland. Puzzling.

The citation says this claim is from the unpublished manuscript of James Burke in the National Library of Ireland. We can find no record of the manuscript, or any other documents from James Burke, in the National Library of Ireland. Perhaps the author would be good enough to share it with us – particularly the section which proves that Alfie Byrne was “personally and politically very close to the fascists and anti-semites Oliver J. Flanagan, Patrick Belton, Charles Bewley, Gearoid Sean Caoimhin O'Cuinneagain and James Burke.”

For the record, there is a well-known photograph of Oliver J Flanagan and Alfie Byrne walking near the Parliament building in Dublin. Apart from this circumstantial piece of evidence, we have not seen any proof that Byrne was “personally and politically very close” with any of the individuals mentioned, beyond having been acquainted with them as fellow politicians.

To imply that an individual was a fascist or an anti-Semite simply because he knew others who were tells us only one thing: the person making this slur might benefit from further reading about this period in Irish history.

In public Byrne cultivated relationships with the Jewish community in Dublin. Privately Byrne appears to have used his influence to argue against Jewish immigration into Ireland, believing Jewish people to be especially inclined to democratic international socialism.[8]

The citation for this claim is from two letters of correspondence to Oliver J. Flanagan and James Burke from the Foreign Affairs papers in the National Archives of Ireland. We can find no reference of these letters in the Archives. Indeed we can find only one reference to the Lord Mayor of Dublin in all of the Foreign Affairs Papers from the 1930s: a cover letter from the Department of Foreign Affairs stating that the documents to follow were for the attention of the Lord Mayor.

By the way, in the Alfie Byrne Archive there is no correspondence with Burke or Flanagan on any subject.

Given that we can find no evidence of this citation, as well as the lack of adequate information in the citation itself, the statement that Byrne’s public opinion differed from his private sentiments appears dubious at best. But there is another dimension to the alleged gulf between Byrne’s private and public opinions. Strangely, someone has chosen to delete all reference to a letter from the Chief Rabbi Isaac Herzog, dated June 19, 1936, which starts: “My dear Lord Mayor, I heartily agree with what you say in your esteemed letter of the 16th” regarding the importance of voting.

Furthermore, a letter from the most prominent member of the Jewish community in Dublin, Louis Elliman, also demonstrates his fondness for the Lord Mayor: “May I congratulate you on your election to your accustomed position of First Citizen. Wishing you a very pleasant year of office and with kindest personal regards.”

This week I received a letter from Mr Maurice Cohen, the President of the Jewish Representative Council of Ireland. The accusation that Alfie Byrne was anti-Semitic in his outlook was, he wrote, "a claim which was a complete surprise to many both inside and outside the community. Following our own inquiries among people who would have been familiar with the period, including those whose parents would have known Mr Byrne, we have found no evidence to support or suggest that Mr Alfie Byrne was anti-Semitic or ever behaved in a manner that offended the Jewish Community during his life or years in office."

We cannot find any evidence that Alfie Byrne argued against Jewish immigration to Ireland; and, as these letters demonstrate, it is quite clear that he was supported by the Jewish community. The claim that his personal and public opinions differed is misleading, to put it mildly.

Alfie Byrne was aware that the vast majority of Irish Jews supported the Spanish Republican government against Franco's rebellion, a rebellion that depended on Nazi air and ground troops.[9]

The article cited does not mention Alfie Byrne. Rather, it references some Jewish funds being collected for a vessel that was meant to sail from Belfast to Spain to support the Spanish Republican government.

The source does not state that Alfie Byrne was actually aware of any support from the Jewish community towards this endeavour, only that that support was given in Belfast. Further, whether or not Franco’s rebellion in Spain was dependent on Nazi air and ground troops or simply outside support, remains superfluous. The author is clearly seeking to make more of a connection to the Nazi regime than actually exists.

Byrne personally led far-right attacks on socialist meetings on Middle Abbey Street (Dublin) using his blackthorn stick to assault those who disagreed with his own fascist views.[10]

The cited article states: “on one occasion the then Lord Mayor, Alderman ‘Alfie’ Byrne, being present in his bowler hat and carrying a blackthorn stick to lead his fellow citizens (some of whom had been mobilised in a billiard hall round the corner) into battle.”

The article does not state that Alfie Byrne (a diminutive man in his 50s at the time) assaulted anyone with a blackthorn stick. In fact, carrying a blackthorn stick and ‘leading his fellow citizens’ is a far cry from assaulting those who disagree with his allegedly fascist views. The anonymous author of this section is clearly trying to sensationalise the facts in order to destroy the reputation of Alfie Byrne.

Further, to describe Byrne as ‘far-right’ without evidence is unfair, to put it mildly. He was anti-communist. That is not the same as ‘far-right.’ (Even the term 'far-right' suggests a classic case of reading history backwards.)

Finally, here is a quotation from Dr Anne Dolan in an email sent this week. As a specialist in this period of Irish political history – and the person who wrote the entry on Alfie Byrne in the Dictionary of Irish Biography – Dr Dolan is surely an expert on the subject:

“Like many in the early 1930s he [Alfie Byrne] was fearful of communism and took an interest in events on the continent, and like many supporters of Cumann na nGaedheal, and moreso as it became Fine Gael, he was seen at events where the one-armed salute adopted by the Blueshirts was practiced. That does not necessarily make him a fascist or anti-Semite in and of itself.

The old historical chestnut of how fascist were the Blueshirts has not yet been cracked, and the levels of engagement with the more extreme views of the movement have not been clarified. I did not come across any material where he expressed a view on this matter… The striking thing with Byrne is that as a long-time independent politician his was a particularly personal vote. He was opportunistic as many independents have to be, and while he clearly used the red scare against FF in his election literature, his main priorities were with his own support base in Dublin and not really with Cumann na nGaedheal or later Fine Gael.

Behind much of the wider interpretative problem is the gap between what we would rightly perceive as anti-Semitism if it was uttered today and what seemed to be accepted in the rhetoric of the 1920s and 1930s. This is a considerable interpretative problem and one which scholars of this period have to grapple with by immersing themselves in the register of the language as it was perceived and understood at the time.”

Like many people, Alfie Byrne knew politicians who were fascist, or sympathetic to fascism, in 1930s Ireland. But the evidence and expert opinion both suggest that Byrne himself was neither a fascist nor an anti-semite. As it stands, this attack on his reputation is both unfair and inaccurate. This is disturbing.

Trevor White Director, The Little Museum of DublinTrevor White Dublin (talk) 08:23, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

I have removed or edited each of the above sentences singly, giving clear edit summaries in each case. If there is any attempt to re-instate any of them, it can be reverted on sight. The editors can be reported for edit-warring. The timing and similarity of the edits suggest that a sockpuppet investigation may be in order. Scolaire (talk) 15:26, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Actually I want to comment specifically on the Getty Images photo. As a photographer of more than 25 years, I have very carefully reviewed the image and I do not see any arm raised that has a dark suited sleeve like Byrne that could possibly be his in the area he is standing. There is a gray jacket sleeve in front of his face and a light coloured shirt over his shoulder but it appears quite clear that Byrne is not raising his arm at all. There is a small portion of his right shoulder showing over the arm of the gray jacketed arm in front of him and seeing as he is standing somewhat forward of that man it is impossible for his complete arm to be obscured by that man raised arm. Something would be showing and so would some of his hand due to their juxtaposition. Also seeing as the lighting is coming from the upper right of the photo, about 1 or 2 o'clock, if his arm was raised in salute it would cause some shadow on his own face or shirt and there is none at all. To me it looks like he has his hands behind his back and he is not saluting. The most natural position for someone saluting is for this other arm to be at their side and quite obviously his left arm is behind him. There are all telltale signs that have not been analysed which have caused a false interpretation of this image. Look at it carefully and you will come to the same conclusion unless your only desire is to see him saluting. So all it proves is that he attended a meeting of the Blueshirts in Dublin, nothing more nothing less. ww2censor (talk) 16:39, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

That's not what I see. I'm assuming that Alfie Byrne is the man in the mayoral chain with the distinctive white moustache to the right of O'Duffy in the photograph (not to O'Duffy's right, as the caption says). Compare the images at Ricorso.net. I see his left shoulder (on the right of the photograph), under the (presumably) blue-shirted arm that is casting a shadow on his face. What looks like his left hand is lying open on his thigh. From his right shoulder there appears to be coming an arm in a dark sleeve with a white shirt cuff showing. I can't see anybody else whose arm it might be; to be obscured, the person would have to be even shorter than Alfie. Behind that arm is the arm of the gray jacketed man behind him. There is nobody in front of him. He is inclined to his left, which would happen naturally if you raised your right arm, but not if your right arm was behind your back. All in all, the immediate impression the photograph gave me – and the impression it still gives me – is of Alfie with his arm raised. I don't have any particular "desire" to see him saluting; I just do. Scolaire (talk) 17:18, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Ah Scolaire, I see what you are saying. The Getty Images caption is not entirely clear; Byrne is we presume, as you suggest, actually the man to O'Duffy's lefthand side so my observations are based on a wrong identity, so I have struck my comments. If you like you can delete them entirely. ww2censor (talk) 21:31, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

No problem. It's no harm to put on record that we have a consensus that the photograph shows what it is said to show. Scolaire (talk) 21:34, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Following two more incidents today, the article is now semi-protected. Scolaire (talk) 20:45, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

More on the photograph

Further to my previous post:

Firstly, www2censor and Scolaire are, I think, correct. Byrne’s arm is outstretched in the photograph that purports to show him giving a ‘fascist’ salute. However, it may not be fair to describe it as a ‘fascist’ salute, as this entry currently claims.

Professor Fearghal McGarry of Queen's University Belfast is the author of Eoin O’Duffy: A Self-Made Hero and Irish Politics and the Spanish Civil War. He is probably the leading authority on this subject. Earlier this month, Professor McGarry provided the following caption for the photo:

“Watched by the former president of the Executive Council, W.T. Cosgrave, and Lord Mayor Alfie Byrne, Fine Gael president Eoin O’Duffy takes the salute at a rally at the Mansion House (c. August 1934). Despite the shirt and raised-arm salute, few Blueshirts beyond a radical minority within the leadership embraced fascist ideas. Like many conservative Irish Catholics, Byrne supported both the pro-Franco Irish Christian Front and O’Duffy’s Irish Brigade but due to their militant and inept leadership, both movements were widely seen as embarrassing failures by late 1937.”

I also asked Professor Michael Cronin of Boston College to comment. Professor Cronin completed his D.Phil at Oxford on the history of the Blueshirt movement in Ireland before writing The Blueshirts and Irish Politics.

“While Byrne was associated with the Blueshirts,” he said, “there is no evidence that he was an anti-semite. He supported the Christian Front and was evident in his backing of O’Duffy’s expedition to Spain, but again this fits into a general Catholic, even right wing, sense of Ireland at the time.”

Professor Cronin makes what is, I think, a key point here:

“To conflate what we know of European fascism in the 1930s and apply this to anyone who was near the Blueshirts in the 1930s is bad history.”

Was Alfie Byrne a fascist? On the basis of the evidence that has emerged to date, that claim seems unfair. I am not even sure if it's fair to say that Byrne is giving a “fascist” salute in that photo. (Professor McGarry describes it as “a raised arm salute.” Elsewhere it is described as a Blueshirt salute.) Indeed to describe it as “a fascist salute” may well be “bad history.” Perhaps www2censor, Scolaire or other contributors have a view on this matter.

As the curator of an exhibition about Byrne I want to ensure that pertinent evidence comes to light, so the exhibition can be amended if necessary. I urge anyone who has relevant information to share it here. And finally, anyone with an interest in the life of Alfie Byrne is welcome to inspect his personal archive in the Little Museum of Dublin. Trevor White Dublin (talk) 15:12, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

I'm afraid we're getting away from the purpose of the talk page at this point. The talk page is not meant for information gathering for an exhibition – worthy though that may be – but for discussing improvements to the article. From the point of view of the article, the communications you say you have from various academics are original research. Any edits to the article have to be based on reliable published sources. While Getty Images do not describe the salute as a fascist salute, they do describe O'Duffy as the "Irish fascist leader". A good quality published source would be needed before you could say that it was not a fascist salute. Scolaire (talk) 16:01, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

Move to Alfie Byrne

I think this article should be moved to Alfie Byrne. It is the name he was known by, and therefore WP:COMMONNAME applies. The Alfie Byrne article was actually the earlier one, but it was merged into this article within a few days of this one's creation. Notwithstanding the size of the above thread, this is a little-watched article, so there seems little point in opening a formal RM, which would likely just sit there for weeks before being closed as no consensus for want of input. If there are no objections I'll move it in a few days time. Scolaire (talk) 14:48, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

Agree. Be WP:BOLD; I doubt anyone will object. ww2censor (talk) 17:02, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

I agree with the proposed move. Snappy (talk) 17:14, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

I had to go through RMTR, but it's done now. Scolaire (talk) 15:48, 29 October 2015 (UTC)