Talk:Alexis Soyer

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There are a number of places in this article where someone is speaking in first person about his info. about Soyer and, I assume, the same person put in several places that some fact is incorrect rather than just fixing it. 209.179.71.76 (talk) 22:07, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

English 77.246.53.36 (talk) 20:30, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

Georg Rignon

Hello Tim, I saw you rejected my modification on Georg. Are you absolutely sure that the first name is Georg? I mean : 1. Georg does not exist at all in French (Rignon being a French name) 2. In Ruth Brandon "The People′s Chef: Alexis Soyer, A Life in Seven Courses" the name appears as "Georges Rignon" 3. In many French culinary articles and books the name given is Georges Rignon. Hoping you won't feel offended by my question. Your article on Soyer is brilliant. Excellent job. JL Fondère (talk) 16:37, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

The source could not be clearer: Georg Rignon. We get this sort of objection from time to time, based on what some editors think ought to be the facts. You wouldn't believe the effort it took to get one editor to accept, or at least not to keep denying, that Poulenc's first name was Francis and not François, as s/he insisted. I concur that Brandon uses the normal French spelling, and it is, of course, possible that Cowen has it wrong: I shall comb the press archives of the period to see if Rignon is anywhere called Georg or Georges, though the early C19th is a bit early to make me sanguine about finding anything there. If you can point to any articles from any period that use the familiar form it will be helpful, but it may be that we shall end up with only two main sources, mutually contradictory, in which case we may need to fall back on "Georges (or Georg) Rignon". I am not unaware of the usual French form of the name, having fairly recently taken the great Georges Feydeau to FA. Thank you for your kind words about the Soyer article: always nice to get a pat on the back. – Tim riley talk 17:08, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

Afterthought: if you have time and inclination, an expert eye run over my orthographie chez Feydeau would be most welcome. Tim riley talk 17:12, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

Thanks a lot for the explanation. I'm still convinced that it's Georges and not Georg. I'll dig deeper to get a clear source. Possibly it's not even Rignon but Grignon as mentioned in some sources. I'll let you know. JL Fondère (talk) 17:43, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

for instance in this novel by Alphonse Signol (1830), page 10, the famed restaurant in Rue Vivienne is clearly named Grignon (https://www.cgb.fr/second-empire-recompense-et-encouragement-de-lecole-imperiale-de-grignon-spl,fme_504860,a.html) JL Fondère (talk) 17:59, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

and yes I will read your article on Feydeau with great pleasure. I started already and you can replace "La ruban" par "Le ruban". JL Fondère (talk) 17:50, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

Done, and please don't hesitate to tweak ad lib, both as to spelling and my translations of French texts such as Les Annales du théâtre et de la musique, Le Figaro etc. Tim riley talk 18:38, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

Soyer's work in Ireland

An editor keeps changing a phrase in this featured article on the pretext that "it’s literally known as the Great Famine of Ireland, as the page will attest". Not true: the Wikipedia article Great Famine (Ireland) in fact begins: "The Great Famine, also known as the Great Hunger, (Irish: an Gorta Mór…), the Famine and the Irish Potato Famine." So much for the contention that there is only one correct term for the events, let alone the one made up by the recent editor. Here are the titles of some books on the subject:

• Ireland's Potato Famine, by Percival, John
• The Great Famine: Ireland's Potato Famine, 1845–51 by Percival, John
• The Great Famine: Studies In Irish History by Edwards, R. Dudley
• The Great Hunger: Ireland by Woodham Smith, Cecil
• The Hunger by Drinkwater, Carol
• The Irish Famine: A Documentary by Tóibín, Colm
• The Irish Famine: An Illustrated History by Litton, Helen
• The Irish Famine: The Birth of Irish America by Allan, Tony
• The Irish Hunger by Hayden, Tom
• The Irish Potato Famine by Gallagher, Carole S
• The Irish Potato Famine by O'Neill, Joseph R
• The Irish Potato Famine: Nardo, Don
• The Irish Potato Famine: The Story of Irish-American Immigration by Dolan, Edward F

The sources I used for the text of the Soyer article use the terms "the Irish famine" (Soyer), "the Irish potato famine" (Cowen), "the Irish potato famine" (Arnold) and "the Irish potato famine" (Brandon). I have reverted to the agreed FA text accordingly. Tim riley talk 08:36, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

I agree with Alison and have restored the corrected version accordingly. There's a reason our article is at that title and not yours. John (talk) 17:12, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

Hello! Earth calling. The title you have inserted is not in our WP article. Fascinated by your sudden interest in Soyer so soon after I suggested your remarks here were not to be taken seriously. Gives me the feeling of being stalked. Tim riley talk 18:27, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

I’ve had the same problem, spread over years. Unfortunately there’s a dark, disturbing and familiar pattern on show here. I tried to do a clean start back in 2018 because of exactly this behaviour, and it’s unsettling to see it happening to me again and starting to you now. - SchroCat (talk) 21:04, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

Chaps, as you're both very well aware, article talk is for discussing improvements to the article. Any concerns about my editing are really best addressed in the first instance at my user talk. I'm genuinely sorry for your feelings, but I will continue to try to improve articles as best I can while endeavouring to treat others with respect. Worth a try I think, no? John (talk) 21:58, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

See WP:WIKIHOUND, take on board that what you are doing is problematic and stop. - SchroCat (talk) 04:34, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Ah well, I tried. John (talk) 05:17, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

The feeling of being stalked is not very comfortable. Be that as it may, User:John fails to explain why s/he prefers a phrasing that is not the title of our WP article or why it is in a small minority in the titles of the 13 books listed and does not appear in the four quoted source articles for the Soyer article. I have considerable respect for Robert Dudley Edwards (his Ireland in the age of the Tudors is on my shelves) but his is the only title in the list above that refers to "The Great Famine" tout court. Four of the others are titled "The Irish Potato Famine". Tim riley talk 08:10, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

I agree with the stable version that immediately alerts readers that the famine was launched by the infection of potato crops. Of course this WP:FA article was reviewed by many experienced editors at FAC, and the consensus was to use this phrase. That doesn't mean it shouldn't receive improvements, but this is not an improvement. The rationale given is that "Irish potato famine" is not nuanced enough, but "Great Famine" is not nuanced at all and is less descriptive. Further nuance is given by the wikilink. I agree that the stable version is better. -- Ssilvers (talk) 19:40, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

Thanks Ssilvers for that. In the modern context, far more historians would blame the British government for treating Ireland like a benighted colony while a million of its people died, than would blame the potato or the blight that affected it. This is why our Wikipedia article is named the way it is. Similarly, our article on the Holocaust is not found under Final Solution, even though it would have been discussed and written about using that title by its perpetrators. Calling it the "Potato Famine" is using the perpetrators' language which absolves them of blame. The current UK government uses "Great Famine", as does Wikipedia, as it fairly and objectively describes the event, rather than blaming the innocent potato. Tim, don't flatter yourself, I saw you being rude over there but I've seen worse. I have teenage kids and they are always at their rudest when they are in the wrong and have nothing substantive to say, and that was how I read your comments. I noticed you'd reverted a very well-reasoned edit from Alison with a poor rationale. Stability does not trump quality, even in a peer reviewed article like this one. Alison is correct on this one. John (talk) 20:30, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

I think the consensus is with the status quo on this one. - SchroCat (talk) 21:08, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

Hi all. Late back here, sorry. I've very little free time for WP these days. Ok - I'm going to ignore the OP's snark here, other than to point out that the term I'm referring to is in very common usage in academe and definitely not something I "made up", nor were the edit I made, and its rationale in any way falsehoods. As the article shows, there are a number of terms in common usage, include "The Great Famine of Ireland", and "Irish Potato Famine" - nor here have I "[contended] that there is only one correct term for the events" and this isn't something I'm pushing here.

There are unpleasant connotations to the latter term, however, as @John: points out above, and is the primary reason I object to it and tend to change it where possible. Also, leaving the link to Great Famine of Ireland, in my opinion, tends to pique interest and hopefully drive clickthroughs to the article. Most folks are unaware that there were multiple famines in Ireland - including Bliain an Áir - but just one Great Famine / Gorta Mór. Just my opinion, mind.

When I check academic articles, I find literally thousands of them referring to the "Great Famine" - some 24,000 hits, if Google is to be believed. So it's not a neologism, it's not something I personally invented, and it's clearly in very common usage. Many of the journal articles, I'm already familiar with.

As to books, searching for "Great Famine" Ireland, gives you like 150,000 hits on Google Books. Again, gHits aren't a great metric here, but I think it's pretty clear from here that "Irish Potato Famine" is far from the accepted default. At the very least, either term is valid, though I would argue that the status quo isn't representative.

Either way, I've wasted enough time on this - Alison ^talk 01:27, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Checking in. Any further thoughts on this? - Alison ^talk 05:57, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

I think your "I've wasted enough time on this" still applies. No indication of a different consensus. Tim riley talk 15:55, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Inaccurate but widely cited information on Soyer and the July Revolution

The article currently states: "he was cooking for a banquet given by the French chief minister, Jules de Polignac, when an armed mob broke in."

The sources cited provide more details, in which the banquet in question took place on July 26, 1830 (the eve of the three-day July Revolution), and relate stories not included here where Soyer supposedly escaped by singing revolutionary songs.

Regrettably I have to say that these stories, though widely cited, appear to be fake — possibly fabricated by Soyer himself. They appear as early as an 1859 biography of Soyer by his former secretaries and are repeated in more modern works. But scholarly works and primary sources about the July Revolution (as opposed to works about Soyer) make this story seem implausible or impossible. The memoirs of the Comte de Montbel and the Baron d'Haussez, two members of Polignac's ministry, both relate meeting with Polignac on the evening of July 26 — not for a banquet, but for a strategy meeting to discuss unrest following the publication of the Four Ordinances. Following this meeting, Polignac and d'Haussez traveled to Polignac's offices at the Foreign Ministry, where they encountered mobs of rioters who stoned their carriage. The ministers escaped into the foreign ministry, which was stoned by rioters for some time before the crowd dispersed — not sacked by a revolutionary mob. Neither of these sources, nor modern works such as David Pinkney's *The French Revolution of 1830*, Vincent Beach's *Charles X of France*, or Philip Mansel's *Paris Between Empires: Monarchy and Revolution 1814-1852* mention any banquet held by Polignac on or about July 26. Neither do more contemporary sources of the July Revolution such as Louis Blanc's 1841 *History of the Ten Years*, which notes to the contrary that "A few stones flung at M. de Polignac's carriage on Monday evening were but a prelude to more daring enterprises." The Memoirs of the Comtesse de Boigne, an active member of Paris high society in this time, also fail to mention any such banquet; she describes a party on the 26th with a number of prominent figures including the Russian ambassador, all talking about the Four Ordinances, but with no mention of some other major social event that night.

This all doubtlessly qualifies as "independent research" and probably falls short of grounds to contradict the published sources that attest to Soyer's banquet adventures. I can work on publishing a rebuttal of these claims if that would help. But perhaps in the meantime, could this article perhaps either cease to assert the banquet story, or at the very least qualify it — "when *some sources report* an armed mob broke in"?

Dhmontgomery (talk) 05:54, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

This is most interesting, and to my mind persuasive. I see no harm in qualifying the statement and will do so. Tim riley talk 11:59, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Done. I'd like to add a footnote saying that the memoirs of the Comte de Montbel and the Baron d'Haussez say only that the ministry was stoned from outside rather than invaded by a mob, and that they make no mention of a banquet on the night in question. To do this I should need this bibliographical information: Title of the two books (in French, not translated), dates and places of publication, publishers (or printers) and page numbers. Tim riley talk 12:16, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Here you go! I'm always a little uncertain with the proper citation format for these older books, especially with their endless string of subtitles and the different French standards for capitalization, but have done my best and linked to the full versions on Gallica. (Haussez, who was with Polignac all night, is the principal source here; Montbel was with him for part of the night and provides corroborating evidence through what he does not mention.)

- Mémoires du Baron d'Haussez, Dernier Ministre da la Marine sous la Restauration, publiés par son arrière-petite-fille la Duchesse d'Almazan, tome second (Paris: Calmann Lévy, 1897), 248-50.

- Souvenirs du Comte de Montbel, Ministre de Charles X, publiés par son petit-fils Guy de Montbel, deuxième édition (Paris: Librarie Plon, 1913), 243. Dhmontgomery (talk) 18:58, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

This is brilliant. Thank you so much! Shall press on accordingly. Tim riley talk 21:18, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

And now done. Please check closely (e.g. have I got the surnames properly rendered in the Sources section and correctly represented in the text what you have told me). Tim riley talk 21:53, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

This stuck with me, so I did more research and have published an article/episode debunking the Polignac banquet incident, if this is helpful: http://thesiecle.com/factcheck2/ Dhmontgomery (talk) 19:35, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

I prodigiously enjoyed your article/podcast, but having read it I think our Wikipedia article is up to scratch already now. Is there anything you'd suggest adding? Tim riley talk 21:57, 17 November 2024 (UTC)