Talk:Alexios II of Trebizond

The wives of Alexios II

Just to note a discreptency here. According to Finlay, Miller, & the FMG website, Alexios has only one wife, the daughter of the King of Georgia. However, according to the "Great Online Encyclopedia of Asia Minor" (GOEAM) website, he had three: the daughter of the King of Georgia (who gave birth to Eudokia Grand Komnene, Andronikos III Grand Komnenos, & Basil Grand Komnenos; his second wife was the daughter of Anachoutlou, ruler of the Laz, who gave him 2 children: Michael and the future empress, Anna Anachoutlou (1341-1342); his third marriage was to an otherwise unknown Sargale, by whom he had one son, George Achpougas. There is no mention of these two women in Finlay, Miller or Michael Panaretos -- although two contemporaries Andrew Libadenos & Constantine Loukites may have provided evidence for this in their yet untranslated works. I've considered the GOEAM a reliable source, but it offers no source for this surprising claim. Maybe I need to keep digging... -- llywrch (talk) 21:17, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

Well, Finlay and Miller are rather outdated in details (and the FMG, which relies on them, I have found to be even more untrustworthy, because its author often has no notion of the meaning of the terms and names he is supposed to be using), so I'd rather be inclined to follow the EHW version. The ODB says nothing other than his first marriage to the Georgian princess, and the PLP sadly does not enumerate his wives either, but does name his children as follows: "V. d. Kομνηνὸς ̓Ανδρόνικος ΙΙΙ., Kaiser von Trapezunt u. d. <Kομνηνός>, Μιχαὴλ ̓Αζαχουτλοῦς u. d. <Kομνηνός>, Γεώργιος ̓Αχπουγᾶς u. d. <Kομνηνὸς> Βασίλειος, Kaiser von Trapezunt u. d. <Kομνηνή>, ̓Άννα ̓Αναχουτλοῦ, Kaiserin von Trapezunt u. d. <Kομνηνὴ> Εὐδοκία, δέσποινα von Sinope/N-Kleinasien.", and based on their surnames, the Anachoutlou marriage at least seems valid. I'll have a look at Savvides to see if he says something. Constantine ✍ 18:30, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Savvides does not mention any wife other than the Georgian princess. As for "Sargale", the PLP mentions her not as Alexios' wife, but as one of those executed by John III in 1342 (by drowning), so this part may indeed be an error. Constantine ✍ 11:14, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

I won't seriously debate you about how outdated Finlay & Miller are -- although Edward Gibbon is even more outdated. (I don't look forward to someone insisting that because Gibbon is a reliable source, the statements he makes in Decline & Fall are on the same level as these two or Bryer, Kushanski, or Sivvides. Gotta add something somewhere about the discovery of Panaretos' chronicle...) However, all three have their uses: while Miller corrects some important mistakes in Finlay & adds some information, Finlay's footnotes are more useful/accurate than Miller, & Miller is considered the Standard Authority in English (because no one has written about this topic in English since then). And FMG does provide the occasional lead for further research in its notes -- but don't get me started on its use of the "Masarelli Manuscript" (an unpublished source that is used too much there). What just worries me is that the reliable sources since Miller published his short book all provide either primary sources or a reasonable argument for their differences from him, & any lack of a footnote on the GOEAM/EHW page for Alexios II worries me. And it'd be nice to give credit to the scholar who proved Alexios II had three different wives. -- llywrch (talk) 21:37, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

I fully agree with you. The problem is, most of the recent work on Trebizond has been done in Russian, and even if my level of the language were good enough, I'd still have no access to them. That is where Savvides is extremely useful, because his work is recent, and he has the habit of making very detailed footnotes and examining the various theories on contentious issues, thereby giving access to the works and thought of other scholars. But on this case, nothing. Constantine ✍ 11:05, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

That's one reason I wish other language Wikipedias would do a better job of using sources in their own languages, rather than translating articles from the English one: lots of important research is routinely published in non-English languages. For example, there are translations of important sources & first-rate scholarly research of Ethiopian history in Italian (and French, & Portuguese), yet it.wikipedia is often a translation of the English language articles. (Which I wrote, often using the version I wrote when I still did not completely understand the subject. :-/) Were those sources used, one could then run the material thru an online translator like Babelfish & use that information to improve other Wikipedias. It'd be a win for everyone: scholarship in that language would be given its proper due, while information would be shared with more people. But people are lazy -- including me. -- llywrch (talk) 16:36, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

To do

1. Discussion of the unusual & suspicious tale of Emperor Alexios saying a dragon, told by John Lazaropoulos, that Alexis slew a dragon during his reign. (Miller, Trebizond, p. 41) Jan Olof Rosenqvist has pointed out that this story has a number a similarities with the story of George & the Dragon.
2. Shift in landward threats to the Empire from the settled & semi-Byzantine Seljuk Turks to the nomadic & tribal Turkmen newcomers. The first were most effectively controlled thru military means, while the latter came to be controlled thru political marriages.
3. Alexios' relations with the Eastern & Western churches. During his reign Catholic missionaries established a base in Trebizond.
4. Discussion that several authorities consider Alexios II's reign to be the height of Trapezuntine power. (Personally, I think this belief is based on too much trust in the judgment of later writers & on incomplete evidence. One could argue that the Empire had experienced a slow but steady decline in its fortunes from the reigns of its earliest rulers; or that the Empire's acme was under another Emperor -- say Manuel I or Alexios III. We simply don't have the evidence to argue in a systematic manner that the Empire was stronger economically or militarily under one ruler, or that any one ruler had a more stable reign.) -- llywrch (talk) 16:59, 4 March 2016 (UTC)

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