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Legitimation and/or adoption

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I edited the article to clarify that even if Prince Albert legitimates (in the sense of the private law) Alexandre by marrying Nicole Coste, or even by adopting him, it is not a certainty that such an action would legitimate Alexandre with respect to inheritance of the throne because at least some readings of the relevant Monegasque constitution and law of succession seem to preclude illegitimately born children (even if later legitimated). —Ryanaxp July 6, 2005 18:48 (UTC)

Charlotte became an heir when her father, Louis II adopted her. Her parents never married, making her illegitimate. As her father had no other children, he adopted her to keep Monaco from being reabsorbed by France. As he had several legitimate children and they had legitimate heirs, Rainier had that option removed as part of the constitutional change of 2002.Alphabeter 16 April 2006 03:30 CST


  • I think adoption would do.
    • Adoption is now no longer an option. Charlotte was adopted because there was no other choice. Monaco would have reverted to France. Under the 2002 constitutional change, only a legitimate child of married parents can be heir. No adopting. If it were possible, Albert might have adopted his nephew Andrea and bypassed the whole question.Alphabeter 12 April 2006 05:30 CST


and Pauline Ducruet, currently seventh and eighth respectively in the Line of succession to the Monegasque Throne, enter the line of succession. At the time of their births, their mother Princess Stephanie, was not married to their father Daniel Ducruet. Their subsequent marriage legitimized them not only legally but allowed them to be placed into the line of succession. If they were placed into the line of succession by their parents subsequent marriage, I don't see why Monegasque law would differ if Prince Albert were to marry Nicole Coste. I do believe though that Alexandre would have to be declared a citizen of Monaco. Great Scott 13 July 2005 19:30 (UTC)

    • Pauline and Louis were legitimized by their parents marriage-though it was after their births. If Albert were to marry Nicole now, Eric would become the heir apparent, as the oldest male. Should that happen, he would become a citizen and given heritary titles such as Albert received upon his legitimate birth. Alphabeter 12 April 2006 05:30 CST

Citizenship

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Is he really French (Category: French people) or is he a Monaco citizen ???82.127.223.236 7 July 2005 07:33 (UTC)

Born in Paris: French citizen. But I agree that other information could come out that would change that categorization later. JRP 7 July 2005 14:08 (UTC)
  • He is a French citizen. He could request citizenship in Monaco at 18 as his father is Monegasque. Alphabeter 12 April 2006 05:30 CST

I understood children took their nationality from their father according to Monegasque law, therefore he would be Monegasque and the Ducruet children French citizens.

  • The law recently changed in Monaco so that as long as one parent is Monegasque, their child can apply for Monaco citizenship. ALL of Stephanie's children are Monegasque though one father was French and the other neither French nor Monegasque. Alphabeter 12 April 2006 05:30 CST
    • Eric Alexandre is Monagasque, because his father is a monegasque. He don't need to apply for a citizenship. Daniel Ducruet and Stephano Casiraghi were granted the monegasque citizenship after their mariage, so their Children are Monegasque. Daniel citizenchip was taken back after the scandal. In Monaco, the father is the head of the family,that's why a child automatically takes his father citizenship. Up until recently, a child born with a monegasque mother couldn't takes her citizenship, unless the father was unknown.

www.monaco-consulate.com/faq_citizenship.htm

Monégasque Citizenship

Acquisition by Relationship

The following have Monégasque nationality:

- any person born in Monaco or abroad of a Monégasque father;

- any person born in Monaco or abroad of a mother born Monégasque who still had this nationality at the time of the birth and of an unknown father;

- any person born in Monaco of unknown parents.

With regards to legitimate offspring, Monégasque nationality is passed on without it being necessary to fulfill any other condition; on the other hand, in the case of natural offspring, this handing-on of nationality only takes place if the child is recognized or legitimized by marriage of its parents...Paris7891

The rules now are not retroactive. For example, if Camille Gottleib (daughter of Princess Stephanie) had been the daughter of a casino dealer, she would now have to file paperwork to claim citizenship as she was born when the rules were different. However, as a member of the Royal Family, she was given citizenship because of who her mother is and the claim of her father being 'unknown'.


Interregnum?

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When exactly did Albert become sovereign Prince? Does a new Prince acsend the throne the moment his predecessor dies (as in the UK, Denmark, etc)? Was the enthronment ceremony just a ceremony or was it legally required to make him the sovereign? (Alphaboi867 02:34, 14 July 2005 (UTC))[reply]

  • Albert became Sovereign Prince technically at Rainier's death, though he wasn't officially called or recognized as such until he investiture in July, after the three months of official mourning had passed. The enthronement ceremony was held in a 'second part' in November as Albert wanted Monaco's National Day of November 19th to continue to be recognized. That has to do with when the Prince is enthroned becoming National Day. Albert wanted the same November date as his father but protocol demanded the official start of his reign in July. It was a political move. ____ From his legitimate birth, Albert was the Sovereign Hereditary Prince though he went by His Serene Highness/HSH Prince Albert. Now as the reigning Prince, he is His Serene Highness, The Sovereign Prince of Monaco, Albert II. Though he's still generally addressed as Prince Albert or Prince Albert II (for those that do their research). Alphabeter 12 April 2006 05:30 CST
Another answer is posted on Talk: Albert II, Prince of Monaco.

Name

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I wanted to add that changing Eric Alexandre to Alexandre will be a waste. His legal name is important to note, no matter what his mother wants the press to call him. Nicole ideally wants the kid to become legitimate. Should Albert actually do it, the kid would be Prince Eric. Yes, people use different names than their given birth names. But in this kid's case, his legal name is what binds him. He is not a Grimaldi. People would be looking for Eric Coste. By leaving Eric Alexandre, it allows for people to find Eric or Alexandre. Alphabeter 12 April 2006 05:30 CST

And of course we must call our next President Marie-Ségolène Royal ? Hektor 21:30, 13 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
WHAT are you talking about? Alphabeter 14 April 2006 02:18 CST
Well I am not going to start an edit war with you. Especially on such a topic. Call him Charles Gérard Eric Tugduald Alexandre Coste if you want and have fun. Hektor 08:58, 16 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I wasn't trying to start a war. Technically, he should be called Eric only. The press refers to him both ways, depending upon if they're using information from previous interviews by Nicole Coste. I think a fair compromise is Eric Alexandre, allowing for both names to found in a search. ______As for my edit comment, it was a tad harsh. I'm not a CAPS ABUSER. So consider it overdone and this an official admission to such.____Regarding my above talk comment, if his name isn't Marie-Ségolène Royal Chirac II, then no one should call him that, it wouldn't be official. Nicole can call her kid Albert Rainier II if she wants and wikipedia would need to title the main article that, but the article itself should call him by his real name until he decides what it is or his father titles him something else. That is my only point. Alphabeter 06:40, 18 April 2006 (CST)

French=Alexandre= Alexander= English

This is a part of Nicole interiew in PM: Page 57: Q: Quels prénoms avez vous choisis? A: D'abord nous l'avons appelé Eric Alexandre Stéphane. Je n'aimais pas Eric,et finalement, Albert non plus. Il a été d'accord pour le changement et a financé la procedure.Notre fils s'appelle Alexandre qui est aussi le deuxième prénom d'Albert. Il porte mon nom de famille.

Part of l'express of 04/07/2005 lexpress.fr Title: Il va reconnaître publiquement son fils Pourquoi Albert a choisi la vérité

par Eric Pelletier, Jean-Marie Pontaut

.... Et, dans les jours qui suivent, un officier d'état civil de la mairie du XIVe arrondissement devrait ajouter le nom prestigieux du père, Grimaldi, à l'acte de naissance d'un certain Alexandre Eric Stéphane, né dans l'anonymat le 24 août 2003, à 18 h 45, à l'hôpital Saint-Vincent-de-Paul, à Paris…

....Nicole accouche, seule, à l'hôpital Saint-Vincent-de-Paul, à Paris, le 24 août. Le bébé est déclaré à la mairie. Sous les prénoms d'Eric Alexandre Stéphane, avant que la maman se ravise et obtienne qu'Alexandre devienne le prénom d'usage de son fils....

This Child name is : Alexandre Eric, Stéphane Coste

For Alphabeter: Why you disavow this child his name, nationality and origin. you have nothing to gain or to lose. Paris7891

  • The net result of all this is that this article is no longer coherent with Albert II, Prince of Monaco. It's not even internally coherent since the little guy is sometimes called Eric Alexandre and some other times Alexandre Eric. One of both is wrong. Please sort out this mess. Hektor 14:16, 18 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not disavowing his name. His mother choses to address him by one name to the press. The legal papers she filed with the French court seeking support state an different name. Even Prince Albert now refers to him as "the kid" because Nicole got mad after he called him Eric--even though its his legal name.
The second thing is French (and many other countries) address names 'backward' to American English ways. David John Smith could be addressed as Smith, David John or Smith, John, David or even John, David (Smith). Nicole also uses this to her advantage to play up the name.
Whatever you want to call him, his nationality is French. He was born of a woman who has adopted French citizenship for her son who was given French citizenship upon his birth in France. He is not recognized as Monegasque. If he were holding Monaco citizenship, she would have filed in a Monaco court (yes, it can be done even against the reigning Prince/member Royal family).
There is no gain for me other than seeing someone who has elevated the child born of a calculated sexual tryst with a Prince not be given automatic 'authority' status on Wikipedia. And those who take her word as gospel should not be allowed to edit articles with information regarding her and her youngest son. You might as well let Katie Holmes edit the Tom Cruise page.
Hektor, if you want it straightened out, stop changing what is correct. I am working from French legal papers. You are working from an article that appeared in a French "US Weekly"-like magazine--you even cite paragraph and verse directly above this reply. Because the Palace of the Prince will not comment and Nicole is holding back from further interviews after reactions, this is what there is to work with. If magazines trump legal papers, this is a poor article indeed. Alphabeter 08:57, 28 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I have not changed anything except spelling since early April. Paris7891 is not a sockpuppet of mine and therefore if you have to argue with someone please argue with him. And from now on I will not even edit spelling or typos in this article with which I want to have nothing to do anymore. If I could revert all my edits I would do it. Anyway given what is going on on the French wikipedia I wouldn't be surprised to see this article voted for deletion soon. Hektor 16:49, 30 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I was not suggesting you were Paris7891. Even my comment on your member page mentioned no such thing. You have edited mentions of Eric Alexandre to just Alexandre. Then two comments up you wrote "It's not even internally coherent since the little guy is sometimes called Eric Alexandre and some other times Alexandre Eric. One of both is wrong. Please sort out this mess.".
I have tried to make both this article and Prince Albert's article congruent in English and French as they are the most viewed. I too am disgusted as to how this whole thing has blown up. It is a good example of why some people don't take Wikipedia as a valid resource.
I am do nothing further to any language version of this article (and the relevant sections of Prince Albert's article) until the decision on the French article. Because the Palace of the Prince does not comment regarding the child, Wikipedia is one of the few places with good information. But if the information merely serves as fuel for something to hurt Wikipedia, then it is best left to the Royal fan sites.
This isn't an official place, but it should be noted that registered members who refuse to offer an email or create a wiki member page where comments can be left and then make controversial changes to popular pages are dangerous. It is suspicious that people who seem to have agendas should point fingers at others and then hide rather than stand and defend their changes. Alphabeter 23:35, 1 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The mother has legally changed her son's name to Alexandre Stéphane Grimaldi-Coste. Mr LMA Wiki (talk) 22:54, 8 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
What is the source for this information, so that it can be included in the article? Wikipedia doesn't accept personal knowledge or privately obtained information about legal changes such as this as evidence that can be used. Without a reliable source, this information can't be kept in the article. Moreover, the source cited must actually state what the child's name is and, if changed, when the change occurred and on what lawful authority. Thanks. FactStraight (talk) 23:57, 8 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

fr:Wikipédia:Pages à supprimer/Alexandre Coste

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You have eight days left to vote and keep a similar text in the French wikipedia... You only need a valid account there and at least 50 edits. 82.224.88.52 22:34, 29 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In a statement reaffirming neither of his current recognized children will be in the line of succession, Albert referred to his son as Eric Alexandre. Also, Nicole's legal papers have been dismissed as a settlement has been made. BOTH of his parents have now addressed the child as Eric Alexandre, so any further changing of his name is silly. Alphabeter 20 June 2006 05:40 {UTC}

Royal Status

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I added the lines regarding the child being given Royal staus, the name Grimaldi and addressed as Prince Eric. This is what an interviewer asked Prince Albert. He said it would not happen (as there are many other options), but that the interviewer was correct in what might be done. Since I have the source of the information, including the exact wording, I am curious as to why someone would change it to Prince Alexandre. Alphabeter 23:48, 1 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Royal Status??? - the Grimaldis are NOT ROYAL, I wish people could grasp this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.16.6.176 (talk) 17:52, 6 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

RqImg

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Anyone know why an image was requested? The only ones that wiki can afford are through the Paris Match article, which was already deemed inappropriate. The rest are papparazzi shots in which the child's face is blurred for privacy concerns. Alphabeter 20 June 2006 05:40 {UTC}

The Catholic question

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"If his parents were to marry"...What about the nature of Nicole Coste's previous marriage? Is it completely over? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.42.62.228 (talk) 22:19, 14 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What lawsuit?

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The "Name" section of the article says "Albert made no public comment on the lawsuit at that time..." but there is no prior mention of a lawsuit. Someone who has time and access to sources should add this. If this can't be done, then excision may be required. --Haruo (talk) 16:26, 4 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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More careful use of "illegitimate"

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In today's world, we should avoid calling any child, son or daughter, brother or sister "illegitimate" unless the legal context of an inheritance, e.g. of a throne, is clarified. Bascially, no human being is generally "illegitimate", and, especially in Europe, extramarital children have become as much the norm as those born in wedlock. (Divorce statistics also show that those born in wedlock very often do not grow up in that wedlock.) I will now be reinstating more careful wording here in this regard, and I ask that we discuss this before making any change to it again. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 11:35, 10 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"failed to honor hos word"

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Anyone agree with me that this reversal has reinstated wording the tone of which is not in the source and which uses pejorative language that was not in there before? Is this a forum for us to criticize Prince Albert's behavior with snotty tabloidesque wording, or is it an attempt to produce and maintain an encyclopedia? I will revert back unless someone objects. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 13:03, 15 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

There is nothing "pejorative" or "snotty tabloidesque wording" about the expression "to honour one's word". Look it up in any dictionary. This is the change I made:
  • Albert provided for and visited mother and child promising … to legally acknowledge the child after a DNA test confirmed his paternity. When he did not do so, ...
  • Albert provided for and visited mother and child promising … to legally acknowledge the child after a DNA test confirmed his paternity. When he failed to honour his word, ...
When you give your word/ promise to do something and renege, you fail to honour your word.
Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 16:35, 15 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
That is the personal opinion of a Wikipedian. The unsourced personal opinions of Wikipedians do not belong in our articles. "Failed" is the problem word, especially when used with "honor", also added in the same edit. The words are not in the cited source. Those words have to go. There was nothing wrong with the wording before a Wikipedian's personal pejorative slant was added to it. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 08:27, 17 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"Status" in the line of succession

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He has never had any and never will. They section heading is wrong. Reverting again. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 12:41, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Repeated attempts to change name

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As seen in the article's edit history, more and more attempts are being made to change the subject's name to Grimaldi (without -Coste). No reliable source has been given yet, and the article name must be changed if there is to be a name change at all in text. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 13:47, 21 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

PS If we are to believe an interview in People (magazine), the article subject is offended by the name form we are using. Perhaps a matter for Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard to try to work out? --SergeWoodzing (talk) 13:59, 21 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Using the People source, it seems straightforward to move this article to Alexandre Grimaldi, leaving Alexandre Grimaldi-Coste as a redirect, and tweaking the lead to Alexandre Grimaldi, known as Grimaldi-Coste until 2022.... Schazjmd (talk) 15:41, 24 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I agree & would do it if I could. Need admin assistance. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 16:07, 24 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) I'm not seeing any compelling reason in the sources currently in the article to keep it at Alexandre Grimaldi-Coste; Paris Match uses that name, but only to say that it was the name on his first passport and that his mother would prefer that he simply used the name Alexandre Grimaldi to match Albert's other children, while the Guardian and NYT don't use the name at all. I'd be inclined to move the article and change the text to follow Schazjmd's suggestion Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 16:11, 24 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@DeCausa:, you recently did a revert related to the name; based on the new source cited here, do you have any objections to changing the name of the article? If not, I can request it at WP:RM. Schazjmd (talk) 16:24, 24 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed, albeit superseded by merger proposal. DeCausa (talk) 22:51, 24 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The title of the article should reflect the name that he is notable under. That is, the name that most RS use. For the lead of the article, WP:BLPPRIVACY requires that "Wikipedia includes full names and dates of birth that have been widely published by reliable sources, or by sources linked to the subject such that it may reasonably be inferred that the subject does not object to the details being made public". Is this satisfied? Morbidthoughts (talk) 17:02, 24 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It appears that someone who became notable as a minor (the article was created when he was 2 years old) has selected their name as an adult and is using that name going forward. Schazjmd (talk) 17:11, 24 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I question whether this article should have any name at all. What has this person done? This looks to be a WP:BLP1E, and even that is based on being born as not being an heir to the throne of Monaco, which is an event that many of us have survived without note. He should get a mention in his father's articles and possibly any on succession of the throne, but I'm having trouble seeing the point of this article. (One should always be dubious of articles created about 2 year olds.) -- Nat Gertler (talk) 17:21, 24 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I second this. There's nothing interesting to say about this individual, they should be mentioned at Albert II, Prince of Monaco, but nothing more. Hemiauchenia (talk) 17:23, 24 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. The only two sentences specifically about him are "he was born" and "he was baptized". The rest is about his mother, his father, and laws of succession. Schazjmd (talk) 17:27, 24 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Merge proposal

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There is nearly unanimous consensus to redirect/merge. Given the near-unanimity, I hope nobody minds that this is an involved close. Hemiauchenia (talk) 16:54, 26 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Proposing here to merge/redirect this article into Albert II, Prince of Monaco, per WP:INVALIDBIO That person A has a relationship with well-known person B, such as being a spouse or child, is not a reason for a standalone article on A relationships do not confer notability. There is nothing interesting to say about this person except in their relationship to Albert II, Prince of Monaco. Hemiauchenia (talk) 17:37, 24 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Responses

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Kids that are a heartbeat or two away from a currently valid throne are usually considered notable for that reason alone. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 15:42, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support in principle, due to lack of notability for Wikipedia, but strongly object to some of the nom's wording. There is something interesting to say about practically every human being. Substituting the word "interesting" (hopefully by mistake?) for "[encyclopedically] notable" is a shameful insult which never is needed and not in tune with Wikipedia's strict policies regarding our treatment of living persons. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 15:26, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I wrote to the nominator about being more careful with wording, hoping that advice might be well received on the user's talk page, especially since that user must be aware that the subject of this article keeps an eye on what's going on here. My advice was immediately deleted with the edit summary "I don't feel like dignifying this nonsense with a response". Sad to see such behavior. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 16:04, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

What's taking so long here? There is utterly clear consensus. It can't possibly be (?) that we enjoy leaving this living person hanging week after week? --SergeWoodzing (talk) 14:34, 26 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
@SergeWoodzing: I've closed the discussion and performed the redirection. Hemiauchenia (talk) 16:56, 26 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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