Talk:Alex Albon

Nationality

Hi I am a little confused, he was born in England, raised in England, went to English schools.

How is his nationality Thai? There are many quotes of his "dual citizenship", and "dual nationality" - the issue for me is that those articles also say he is "British, racing under the Thai flag" or "representing Thailand" .

Yes, he races as a "Thai" driver but he is British. That does not stop him being British in the infobox.

Red Bull - "first F1 driver to race under the Thai flag"

F1i - "While Albon was born in London and raised in the UK"

Motorsportweek = "We know that British drivers will likely finish 1-2-3 in the Formula 2 Championship this year. It is almost certain that George Russell will [...] Alex Albon is next,"

More importantly, this is a biography - not a racing career article.

This gives the impression he IS Thai, the hidden text makes it clear, but the visible does NOT.
The problem is that the infobox template actually expects his REAL nationality, not the "flag he is racing under" (there is NO NOTE on the template page)

Perhaps add "representing Thailand" after the British flag?

I am changing it to correctly show he is not just Thai Chaosdruid (talk) 12:26, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

In the 2012 article he was listed as British (x2)

In the 2013 article he was listed as British (x3) and Thai (x1) by us

In the 2014 article he was listed as Thai (x3)

Is this retrospective? THere is no reference that stipulates he is Thai, or that he has a Thai licence/Superlicence

Chaosdruid (talk) 13:06, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

@Chaosdruid: we know that he must have at least dual Thai citizenship/nationality because he races under that flag per the regulation Article 9.5, Point 2 of the FIA International Sporting Code.
SSSB (talk) 16:14, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

That is at worst WP:OR, or at best WP:SYN

The FIA International Sporting Code?

FIA APPENDIX L TO THE INTERNATIONAL SPORTING CODE:

"5.1.1 The driver must be the holder of a current FIA International Grade A licence."

"5.1.2 The driver must be the holder of a valid driving licence when he applies for a Super Licence for the first time."

That sort of suggests that the second super licence is not ASN specific.

Not sure that is the correct regulation you quoted there?

From the FIA Sporting Code (PDF):

FIA International Sporting Code Application from 1 January 2019

INTERNATIONAL SPORTING CODE

ARTICLE 9.5 REFUSAL OF LICENCE

9.5.1 An ASN or the FIA may refuse to issue a Licence to an applicant who does not meet the national or international criteria applicable to the Licence applied for.

9.5.2 The reasons for any such refusal shall be stated.

Chaosdruid (talk) 18:13, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

The nationality field is wikilinked. That links exists for a reason. If you follow it, you'll find the full explanation on nationalities in FIA motorsports with a reference including a quote with the rule in question. It does appear that the regulation in question is currently 9.4.2 instead of 9.5.2.Tvx1 19:20, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

Once again, this is a BLP page, not a "racing driver called" page.

He is only, as far as I can see, "racing under the flag" of Thailand, that does NOT make him Thai!

It's bizarre. He is a person and has dual nationality.

We cannot just ignore the British because he is ALSO a racing driver who happens to race as a Thai driver - none of that removes his British nationality.

Yes, of course on all F1 articles where his nationality is mentioned as a racer he has said he races as Thai

I cannot accept that the F1 part of him is superceding the whole of his life and identity

If he has said "I am now Thai not British" (in his whole life), then fine. Chaosdruid (talk) 16:44, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

@Chaosdruid: why have you started this discussion in 2 places (here and WT:F1#Infobox - nationality)? This could be interpreted as forum shopping and it's significantly less confusing if the discussion happens in 2 different places especially as Tvx1 has essentially already replied to the above there.
SSSB (talk) 18:00, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

No one ignores his Britishness. It's given adequate attention in the lead and the body of the article. This a BLP of racing driver, not just a BLP. The only reason this BLP exists on Wikipedia, is he because he is notable because what he achieved as a racing driver. Therefore all information presented in this article in a way that is in balance with how important the information is actually to his notability. The infobox contains the most important information from this racing driver's BLP. His Britishness is actually not than notable in the grand scheme of things. Moreover, the nationality field is situated in the section of the infobox that directly deals with his F1 career. Adding British there implies that he actually represented the United Kingdom during some part of his F1 career and we know that's not the case. So it is just inappropriate.Tvx1 23:48, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

Because one is general - whether or not there should be a change to the way F1 editors are using the current infobox

And one is specific to this case, where there is dual nationality.

In the general posts, I am pointing out that the nationality field is being usurped into a career representing field and that perhaps another field should be added - unfortunately you are treating it as the same thing and posting about Albon on the F1 talk page. Chaosdruid (talk) 11:31, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

It's an F1 infobox, not a general purpose infobox. That is basically the end of the matter. If you want to make a show of Albon's other nationality, then a separate infobox would be required, but since there would be nothing extra to put in it (because he is solely notable as a racing driver), it would be hard to justify that second infobox. Bretonbanquet (talk) 20:23, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

Why are you guys making such a big deal out of this? Alexander Albon is not the only one in this situation. Lance Stroll, Max Verstappen, Nico Rosberg, Romain Grosjean and some others have double nationalities and we always use both in the lead (Thai-British driver, French-Swiss, Canadian-Belgian) and the flag they race for in the infobox. LesRoutine (talk) 13:35, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

Mother's fraud conviction

@Dwhatley: can you please justify your addition of Albon's mother's conviction of fraud. Because to me (and @Marbe166:, based on the pages edit history) it doesn't seem relevant to Alexnder (and therefore shouldn't be mentioned).
SSSB (talk) 12:50, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

@SSSB: I feel it has as much relevance as other information in the Personal Life section, and comes from a relevant source (The Times). Why do you think it is not relevant?— Preceding unsigned comment added by Dwhatley (talk • contribs) 11:46, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

@Dwhatley: it isn't relevant because (unlike everything else in the "personal life" section) it has nothing to do with him. Therefore it isn't relevant to him and, by extension, shouldn't be mentioned in the article.
SSSB (talk) 11:52, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

Exactly, the only relevant information about his mother is that she is a Thai national, since that is the reason why he is racing under the Thai flag. --Marbe166 (talk) 20:20, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

This is a matter of public record, that has been addressed and discussed extensively by Albon himself and numerous credible commentators. If you are suggesting it is not relevant then you must explain why this is the case in spite of such extensive commentary elsewhere. TitusAtticus (talk) 12:03, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

No, if challeneged the onus is on you to prove that it is relevant. You can't prove irrelevance. How widely it is discussed does not make it relevant to a biography on another person.
SSSB (talk) 12:11, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

@SSSB: @Marbe166: How would you feel about adding another section titled family controversy? --Dwhatley (talk) 13:20, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

Strongly opposed. Firstly a section title containing the word "controversy" would be a violation of WP:NPOV. Secondly, there only appears to be one family "contraversy". Thirdly, this particular "contraversy" has doesn't appear to have anything to do with the subject of the article.
SSSB (talk) 12:35, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

Agree with SSSB, nothing else to add. --Marbe166 (talk) 17:34, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

This is an unsustainable position. The matter has been covered extensively in the press, including directly with the driver in the 'Drive to Survive' Netflix series. If it is irrelevant, so too is all other identifying information about his father, mother and partner. Just because you find the matter unpalatable (or perhaps unsympathetic) does not mean it is not profoundly relevant to his career and personal life. TitusAtticus (talk) 11:55, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

How is it relevant to him? It has nothing to do with "unpalatable", but I don't see how this is relevant. By all means start an article on her.
SSSB (talk) 12:09, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

For clarity and brevity I respond to both of your comments here. Its relevance to his personal life and career as a formative event is a matter that the subject of the article has raised and discussed. The relevance is not derived from the mother's conviction itself (nor indeed should we veer into commentary on this), but from the impact that these events had upon the driver. These are matters that are covered extensively elsewhere and I am happy to include them if you feel it more aptly demonstrates the relevance. TitusAtticus (talk) 12:26, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

If you can provide the evidence that this impacted on the driver, then it is relevant. If we include the impace in the article, I would be open to including this information.
SSSB (talk) 12:32, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 3 November 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved. The supporters make a convincing argument that this person's WP:COMMONNAME is Alex Albon, something that is not disputed by the opposers (who primaily make arguments not based in Wikipedia policies and guidelines against the proposed move). (non-admin closure) Iffy★Chat -- 15:40, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

---

Alexander Albon → Alex Albon – Alex is his WP:COMMONNAME, as per recent articles [1], [2], Red Bull's website [3], his own website [4], and his Twitter [5]. Joseph2302 (talk) 13:47, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

Strong oppose. His name is Alexander, and that is how it appears in all FIA graphics and documents. --Marbe166 (talk) 17:34, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

• And we use WP:COMMONNAME rather than WP:OFFICIALNAME. Joseph2302 (talk) 17:45, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

  And FIA graphics should be considered when considering WP:COMMONNAME. That's that F1 viewers will see
  SSSB (talk) 19:44, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

• Where are you seeing that his name appears as "Alexander" in all FIA graphics and documents? First of all, what even are FIA graphics? If you are referring to race-day graphics, those are from Formula One, which is a separate entity from the FIA. Either way, Formula One also refers to him as Alex Albon, Alex Albon, Alex Albon, and Alex Albon. FIA too uses Alex Albon, Alex Albon, and Alex Albon. Both entities seem to have shifted to using Alex now that he has been in Formula One for a longer time. This and the fact that racing/sports media refers to him as "Alex Albon" for a majority of the time makes it clear that it should be moved.  Bait30  ^{Talk 2 me pls?} 06:49, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

  Documents refer to the official event documentation (entry lists etc., [6]) and FIA graphics refer to in-race TV graphics which are done by FOM. None of the links you provided disprove this.

  However I would say that what the official event documents say is irrelevant because a) most people don't read them and b) they are based on the legal name on the passport/driving license not driver prefernce.

  @Marbe166: a source confirming FOM grpahics use Alexander Albon would be helpful for verification.
  SSSB (talk) 09:24, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

  Here are two screenshots from the coverage of last weekend's Grand Prix: [7], [8] --Marbe166 (talk) 17:43, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

  Not sure what the screenshots are meant to prove, as we don't always copy the FIA screenshots e.g. they show Carlos Sainz, whereas our article is Carlos Sainz Jr. Joseph2302 (talk) 10:43, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

  That's because we have to disambiguate between Carlos Sainz Jr. and his father, Carlos Sainz. F1 don't. It's called natural disambiguation.
  SSSB (talk) 11:30, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

  The screenshots show the official F1 graphics, which is by far the most widespread way of referring to Alexander Albon. --Marbe166 (talk) 21:41, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

• Support per nom. See my comment above for rationale.  Bait30  ^{Talk 2 me pls?} 06:50, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

Oppose His full name is Alexander Albon. End of story. Alex is just a shortened, more casual variation of his name, as is the case with most people named Alexander (or any other long name with a shortened variant for that matter). - Cement4802 (talk) 10:04, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

That's not how naming articles works. That would mean we would have to move Alex Jones, Alex Ferguson, Alex Rodriguez, Alex Trebek (RIP), Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain, Alex Smith, Alex Honnold, Alex Van Halen, and Alex Morgan. We'd also have to move Steve Irwin, Tony Abbott, and Cate Blanchett.  Bait30  ^{Talk 2 me pls?} 21:03, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

Support. "Alexander Albon" only seems to appear in official documentation for the most part, with most reliable sources referring to him as "Alex Albon". It also seems that in public life he usually refers to himself as "Alex Albon", which at the very least would make "Alex Albon" a more respectful title towards the article's subject. It would seem that "Alexander Albon" is WP:OFFICIAL and "Alex Albon" is WP:COMMONNAME. 2A02:C7F:DC08:9000:B032:FD35:9797:B4F1 (talk) 18:48, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

• Weak Support move to "Alex". Given a quick search on Speedcafe it would be easy to cherrypick as it seems different authors have a different preference. Official FIA documents are highly irrelevant: no-one is denying that is his legal name but that is not how names should be chosen. It is surprising to see so much opposition in spite of no examples to support common usage in independent reliable sources using "Alexander". For the record, two articles from Speedcafe within a few days, Alex and Alexander. It does seem that a majority do use the shortened name however, and that he himself seems to prefer that usage I prefer "Alex". A7V2 (talk) 09:28, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
• Comment - what he wants to be called is just as relevant (or more accurately irrelevant) as what his legal name is on his passport. We use WP:COMMONNAME, not legal name, nor preferred name.
  SSSB (talk) 09:36, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

Per WP:SPNC we should give some weight to self published sources when it comes to the name used for a living person, making it, I think, more relevant than what is official. Still not as important as what appears in reliable sources but I think if they are fairly mixed (not that I don't think a majority, if not an overwhelming majority, use Alex not Alexander) it could be the deciding factor. A7V2 (talk) 12:53, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

While this is a somewhat borderline case so far as WP:SPNC goes, I would personally say that it applies here. The opening sentence can still say that his full name is Alexander Albon Ansusinha. HumanBodyPiloter5 (talk) 16:23, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

---

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Categorisation

Joseph2302, please see the Thai names item under Wikipedia:Categorization of people#Ordering names in a category. --Paul_012 (talk) 22:37, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

Albon was born in the UK, he is half-British and half-Thai, and Albon is a surname inherited from his British father. And he is always referred to by his surname, not his given name. I therefore see no reason to change the defaultsort to sort by first name, as common use of his name uses British naming rather than Thai naming. If it were a Thai name, he should be referred to as Alex or Alexander everywhere, but he isn't anywhere. Joseph2302 (talk) 22:48, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

That's one logical take on the issue, and the guideline did previously recommend the sort order only for Thai names. However, more recent consensus was to prefer consistency within categories, i.e. to sort all names in Thai-people categories by given name, even if it includes people with non-Thai names. I won't force the issue here, but if further disputes arise this may require further discussion on the guideline. --Paul_012 (talk) 23:27, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

I also note that listing him as Albon is consistent, as everyone in Category:Thai racing drivers is listed by surname, and all but two people in Category:Thai people of English descent are listed by surname. Although as Alex and Albon both start Al, it's not making much different to the categorisation either way. Is there a guideline regarding categories and Thai names? Joseph2302 (talk) 17:10, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

@Joseph2302: the penultimate bullet point in Wikipedia:Categorization_of_people#Sort_by_surname specifically deals with Thai names.
SSSB (talk) 18:19, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

The inconsistency is mostly because while the guideline exists, it hasn't really been followed since many editors are unaware of it (categories such as the Thai racing drivers one are especially affected since most of the articles were created by editors not working primarily on Thailand-related stuff). I'm in the process of going through articles and updating the sort keys, and expect to eventually reach the other articles. --Paul_012 (talk) 22:54, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

Activity in F1

Alex Albon is still in F1, but as a reserve driver for Red Bull Honda. Is this still considered active, or is it only considered active when he is needed? BDK1210 (talk) 04:43, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Correction: Alex Albon BDK1210 (talk) 04:43, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

@BDK1210: depends on how you define active. Most people wouldn't consider him an active driver. But he is "active" in Formula One, helping Red Bull develop their car. Both this year's and next's.
SSSB (talk) 08:59, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:

• Alexalbon2022.jpg

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 11:52, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

My recent edit

I have added information to this page but i haven't sourced it yet. please someone else add the source as i need to go do something now FerrariFan77 (talk) 06:26, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 19 October 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Reading Beans, Duke of Rivia 01:31, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

---

Alex Albon → Alexander Albon – Hi all, I think there needs to be a discussion about the article name not being his WP:COMMONNAME. As much as his name can be shortened to Alex, it is not the name used on timing documents and official TV/media graphics. Legacy media seems pretty torn on which one to use—there is no clear preference—thus, I think the officially stated name should take precedent. This point has come up in numerous move requests before, and has been the defining point in many, most recently Andrea Kimi Antonelli. Mb2437 (talk) 21:04, 19 October 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Reading Beans, Duke of Rivia 00:51, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

• Support, fully agree with your arguments, and the closing argument of the above discussion is not convincing, the article should be moved back. --Marbe166 (talk) 12:34, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

  Especially given that FIA names are shortened to preference where applicable e.g. Jak Crawford and Zhou Guanyu; the names given to the masses on the greatest stage should be represented as their common names. Mb2437 (talk) 12:53, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

• Support, as per above. Coeusin (talk) 18:03, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
• This needs to be formatted as a proper move request. Re: Legacy media seems pretty torn on which one to use, I'm not seeing that. All but one of my first page of Google News results use "Alex Albon". --Paul_012 (talk) 19:13, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

  Depends if you're Googling "Alex Albon" or "Alexander Albon" from what I can tell, there's no clear preference. Either way, the most widespread media exposure Albon receives is via Formula One, who list him clearly as "Alexander" in all instances. Mb2437 (talk) 21:07, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

  For me, it doesn't. I get the same results searching with either. --Paul_012 (talk) 15:42, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

  No, they don't. Here is an article from the official Formula One website that clearly uses Alex: [9] SSSB (talk) 16:23, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose, per WP:COMMONNAME. Someone's "common name" is determined by "its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable, English-language sources", not just the FIA. One source does not make a prevalence. Autosport and Motorsport magazine tend towards Alex, as does the TV commentary. Bretonbanquet (talk) 22:28, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose per Bretonbanquet and the above discussion #Requested move 3 November 2020. The above discussion clearly shows that Alex is more common. You claim "there is no clear preference". There are two problems with that sentence. One, if there is no clear preference the status quo should maintain. Two, you have only listed two sources to support your claim that there is no common name (that won't convince anyone). To cap it off, one of the two sources you mention is only read by people who NEED to read them as part of their job, or die hard fans, who surely know that he commonly goes as Alex. Additionally, you refer to previous discussions for previous drivers, specifically Andrea Kimi Antonelli. Having just read Talk:Andrea Kimi Antonelli#Requested move 3 September 2024; yes the officially stated name came up, but it was by no means the determining factor. (The determining factor was that it was not true that most sources used "Kimi Antonelli". In the absence of a clear preference for using "Kimi Antonelli" the status quo was maintained. The situation here is competely different. Firstly, you need to show that "Alexander Albon" is more prevelant that "ALex Albon" because that is the move you are proposing (you haven't done this). Secondly, a much higher proportion of sources use "Alex Albon" that "Kimi Antonelli". Partly, becuase Alex is a common hypocorism, not his middle name, so it comes more natrually.) What was discussed at Antonelli's talk page, or anyone else's is completely irrelevant. SSSB (talk) 07:28, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

  It is not completely irrelevant what was discussed at the Antonelli talk page. It is about consistency. As was discussed there, we should use what the FIA docs and the F1 graphics use, since they are by far the dominant and most far-reaching way of showing the driver's names to a worldwide audience. The only exceptions from that in use are Carlos Sainz Jr, which is needed due to Sainz Sr, and Albon, where there is no such need for a disambiguation, and therefore the page should be moved back. Marbe166 (talk) 05:57, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

  It is completely irrelevant. You are completely misrepresenting what was discussed at Antonelli's talk page. Yes, some editors opposed it based on what FIA docs and F1 graphics use. However, to claim that that disucssion yielded a consensus that FIA docs and F1 graphics should be used to determine article titles is complete and utter nonsense. And it flies in the face of Wikipedia wide policies such as Wikipedia:COMMONNAME. Stop expressing your personal opinion as a consensus. Antonelli's article was not moved because very few sources call him "Kimi Antonelli" (not just two sources). However, many sources use "Alex Albon", so the two aren't really compariable. As for "it is about consistency". Keeping this page at Alex Albon would be consistent with the Wikipedia wide practice of using commonname over official name. SSSB (talk) 16:21, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

  I never said that it was the consensus, I said that it was discussed. Don't attribute statements to me that I have not made. I am not arguing against WP:COMMONNAME, I am arguing that Alexander Albon is his common name due to the F1 graphics being the dominant source of it, having a bigger weight than other sources, since it is by far the most used media for communicating his name. His official name, btw, is Alexander Albon Ansusinha, but noone is proposing moving the article to that. Marbe166 (talk) 16:39, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

  Sorry, let me clarify. The way you structered that sentence, and your word choice implies "we discussed and reached a consensus/agreement that we should follow F1 graphics and FIA documents". It wasn't discussed, it was only mentioned. Not the same thing. I would also argue that, for F1 purposes, Alexander Albon is his official name (the name used in official documents), and Alexander Albon Ansusinha is his full name. Also, WP:COMMONNAME does not give additional weight to the most viewed source. I disagree that F1 graphics are the most used media. Not only do F1 graphics rarely show the full name. People who watch F1 often read F1 media. And people who don't watch F1 might read F1 media. Finally, it is not enough for you to say that Alexander Albon is a commonname, (no one denies he is commonly refered to as Alexander). You have to show clear preference for Alexander over Alex for the staus quo to change. You aren't even close. SSSB (talk) 17:08, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose per Paul_012, Bretonbanquet, and SSSB. My search results for alexander albon confirm that Alex is part of his common name in independent sources. Hameltion (talk | contribs) 14:21, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Relisting comment: Relisting for clearer consensus. Best, Reading Beans, Duke of Rivia 00:51, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose per Hameltion, Bretonbanquet, and SSSB and per my own fairly quick search. Google Trends shows an approximately 7:1 preference for Alex. His officaial website is AlexAlbon.com and Alex is used in the couple of press releases and articles that I looked at there. Not an exhaustive search but it quickly confirmed what others in opposition to have found and contradicts the nominator's statements. Even if sources were split—which they are not so far as I can tell—that would be a weak case per WP:TITLECHANGE and WP:BROKE.--MYCETEAE 🍄‍🟫—talk 03:06, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

  • Oppose - Per Google Trends Garnet Moss (talk) 17:48, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose. It's clearly even what he calls himself. -- Necrothesp (talk) 16:52, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.