Talk:Aleksandr Khanzhonkov

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Page name, lead and person's details including transliteration have been persistently changed by four different users during the last five days to one particular template: [1] [2] [3] [4]. I was told it's not vandalism but POV-pushing and redirected here, even though the edits are obviously organized. Users user:Гуманіст, User:Стефанко1982 and User:Visem are reverting the referenced page where Khanzhonkov is named "Russian film producer, etc." to the User:Yasnodark version where he is proclaimed "Ukrainian" with one reference to the Ukrainian The Day daily paper. All users have "Ukraine" in their description, all of them are doing same reverts. I can't tell whether they are friends or bots, or maybe something happened in Ukraine that motivated them to do so, but I see these edits as disruptive and non-natural. Apart from multiple references in the original version there are obvious facts: that Khanzhonkov never lived or worked in Ukraine (he started his business in Moscow during Imperial times, during the October revolution fled to Crimea which became part of Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic only in 1954, then fled to Europe, then returned to work in Moscow. AveTory (talk) 16:53, 27 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

″Khanzhonkov never lived or worked in Ukraine″ He was born in Ukraine)))--Гуманіст (talk) 17:43, 27 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

No he wasn't. He was born in the Don Host Oblast of the Russian Empire which was divided between Russian and Ukrainian SSR only in 1918, then between Russia and Ukraine in 1991. But even then Khanzhonkov's occupation is not defined by the place of his birth, but by the place where he worked. And even then this must be supported by WP:RS. AveTory (talk) 18:19, 27 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Welcome to the wonderful world of Russian - Ukrainian relations.--Ymblanter (talk) 16:58, 27 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

To be honest, I think AveTory makes a good point, and, in addition, it is not uncommon for Ukrainian Wikipedia users to coordinate things off-wiki, but I am not going to dig into this shit. I have seen similar edit-warring in other articles, and dealing with it is very frustrating.--Ymblanter (talk) 17:01, 27 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Let me also remark that Гуманіст, who has 6 edits in this project (which include the above edit) is at best a disruptive meatpuppet, and at worst WP:NOTHERE.--Ymblanter (talk) 18:39, 27 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I support the position with Oleksandr (in Ukrainian or Russian it is more easy to name, but in English it is a problem). Anyway, I may understand the position of User:AveTory, but still there is no neutral point of view in his/her edits. That is why such conflicts of editing begin. --Visem (talk) 19:43, 27 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

My edits are primarily based on reliable sources (Historical Dictionary of Russian and Soviet Cinema by Peter Rollberg, Encyclopedia of Early Cinema by Richard Abel, Early Cinema in Russian and its Cultural Reception by Yuri Tsivian, interviews with Khanzhonkov's granddaughter). Khanzhonkov's own 1937 memoirs are named "First years of Russian cinema". Your reference is a modern-day Ukrainian daily paper. AveTory (talk) 20:07, 27 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Fully protected. Discuss on Talk:Aleksandr Khanzhonkov. Enigma^msg 00:37, 28 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

AveTory Hello. I believe that it is your edits of a citizen of a foreign state (a country that really loves to sink into someone else's affairs and embody other people's actions) can be interpreted as vandalism and the war of edits. You repeatedly canceled the editing of various users, which raised the neutrality of the article. It is not clear from your version that Khanzhonkov had some kind of relationship with Ukraine. So all 4 users who have restored the neutral version came from Ukraine, as well as Khanzhonkov in contrast to you. You say that he has nothing in common with Ukraine, but he was born in Khanzhonkovka, Ukraine (now in Makiivka Donetsk Oblast), died in Yalta, Ukraine (now Autonomous Republic of Crimea, Ukraine). And during the filming of the film in Odessa, Kyiv and Kharkiv ets it is also Ukraine. Ukraine entered the Russian Empire on a federal basis in 1654, and for the first time this name was mentioned in the 12th century, so it's not up to you to tell when Ukraine appeared. My grandfather was seven years younger than Hanzhonkov, and he lived in the same street as me, and you say that he didn`t live in Ukraine? --Yasnodark (talk) 15:05, 28 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Enigmaman Hello. Your decision in the article about a person from Ukraine to protect the version of a user from Russia, contrary to the opinion of 4 users from Ukraine, in my opinion is completely biased, contradicts logic and has nothing to do with the concept of neutrality.--Yasnodark (talk) 15:05, 28 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

BrownHairedGirl Hello. I would like to hear your opinion on this one-sided decision.--Yasnodark (talk) 15:37, 28 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

So basically, you tag-teamed with others to revert the edits, and you are not interested in respecting WP:RS, if I interpret your statement correctly. And, yes, you are calling "vandalism" something which is not vandalism. And of course you are casting aspersions claiming AveTory is from Russia though I do not see any evidence supporting this statement. And your arguments are extremely weak and not policy based. Whether Ukraine existed in the 12th century has whatsoever no relation to what is the most common English name of Khanzhonkov who did not even speak Ukrainian. Tokhtamysh was also born in a place which 700 years later become Ukraine, should he be listed as Ukrainian?--Ymblanter (talk) 15:50, 28 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Yasnodark, I presume that what you call a "one-sided decision" is Enigmaman's protection of the page. That protection is a good call under protection policy, to stop the edit war on the page; I spotted it when I went there to protect it myself.

Frankly, I could not care less whether any of you are from Russia, Ukraine, Tahiti, Mars or some undiscovered dwarf planet with an internet connection. The content of en.wp articles is determined by the balance of reliable sources, not by checking the passports, ancestry and DNA of editors. If there is no consensus, open an RFC.

Meanwhile, stop tag-teaming. And I you ever repeat any comment like that disgraceful remark above criticising an editor for "your edits of a citizen of a foreign state", I won't hesitate to indefblock you immediately and without warning. No matter how bad relations may be between Russia and Ukraine, Wikipedia is not a battleground on which you can fight out your differences. This place works on collaboration and consensus, and I see precious little of that from the editors here. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:08, 28 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

BrownHairedGirl Hello! You say that this protection is a good challenge under the protection policy to stop the war of editing on the page; but why was the version of the user who started the war selected to protect? You say that the content of articles is determined by the balance of reliable sources and now I do not see any balance sheet in the article. Why in the article about Ukraine reliable are sources from Russia? Why have all the references to Ukraine and the seized alternative source been removed? And you and your colleague do not care who is from where, then why is the initiator of this discussion given preference and the opinions of other participants in the discussion are completely ignored?

I did not delete the Russian categories in the article and did not delete the place of birth and death at the time of these events. I just added Ukrainian categories and place of birth and death for today.

I will refrain from unacceptable comments, but I note that it is this circumstance that explains the position of my opponent, who completely rejected my and subsequent edits aimed at improving the neutrality of the article.--Yasnodark (talk) 16:23, 28 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The article is NOT about Ukraine or Russia, it's about a filmmaker. And your reference wasn't removed, I moved it to the Bibliography section along with a bunch of Russian articles that had been already there, although all of them probably belong to External links. Everything else is a matter of WP:RS, not my or your citizenship. As I said before, try doing Google search and compare the results. The current version of the article is clearly the most common version of Khanzhonkov's biography. AveTory (talk) 17:29, 28 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I responded to a request at WP:RfPP. The version was not 'selected'. Are you willing to work collaboratively or not? If you treat this as a battleground, you will be blocked. That's a statement of fact, not a threat. Enigma^msg 17:30, 28 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Enigma From myself I will say that it's not I who rejected other people's edits 4 times. I have not fought with anyone but have added important information. I ask you to make a compromise version of article, although in my version I tried exactly that.--Yasnodark (talk) 17:51, 28 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

First of all, "Aleksandr Khanzhonkov" is the most common spelling. Secondly, describing him as someone who was born in the Russian Empire and worked in the Soviet Union is absolutely fine. So, the policies are on the side of AveTory here. He is right, let's admit it. My very best wishes (talk) 16:52, 28 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This is fundamentally wrong approach, you do not understand the context. About the director’s activities in these countries that existed at the time, there was information in my version of the article, but this does not deny that it is a Ukrainian director. After all, Ukraine was part of the Russian empire on federal principles of broad autonomy, just as the Ukrainian SSR joined the USSR as an independent state and this was reflected in its Сonstitution. Even in the well-known English-language sources, it is indicated that Hanzhokov gave birth in Ukraine https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0151946/ , https://reference.jrank.org/biography-2/Khanzhonkov_Aleksandr.html . spellings are here: https: //day.kyiv.ua/en/article/day-after-day/ukrainian-cossack-made-it-hollywood or http://ukrainians.zbir.info/2016/01/oleksandr-oleksiyovich-hanzhonkov-1877-1945-odin-z-pioneriv-kinematografu-organizator-kinopromislovosti/ .--Yasnodark (talk) 17:51, 28 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Similar examples: Kevin Macdonald (director) is a Scottish director (not british). Walter Scott is a Scottish historical novelist, poet, playwright and historian. But Scotland is in the same position as Ukraine then.--Yasnodark (talk) 17:58, 28 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

First all, are you sure that "Ukraine was part of the Russian empire on federal principles of broad autonomy"? Please see map on page List of governorates of the Russian Empire. More important, can you please cite several scholarly books in English where Khanzhonkov was described specifically as a "Ukrainian filmmaker". If you can, then you may have a valid argument here. My very best wishes (talk) 18:27, 28 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Here are the terms of an agreement on which Ukraine included to the Moskovia, formed Russian Empire: March articles, 1654 year.--Yasnodark (talk) 13:39, 29 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]