Talk:Albert von Sachsen (born 1934)
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 | On 7 June 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved from Albert, Margrave of Meissen (1934–2012) to Albert von Sachsen. The result of the discussion was moved. |
Margrave of Meissen
[edit]Why the page move? There is no indication yet that Albert has taken the Meissen title. A better title (at least in the meantime) would be Albert, Prince of Saxony. 99.246.46.229 (talk) 13:59, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
- Or even better would be the title that Albert has long used (and to which he is, dynastically, entitled as are members of all branches of the House of Wettin): "Duke of Saxony". It is not clear that Albert will adopt his late brother's title, and it certainly can't be the "most commonly used name for him in English" yet, since he acquired it just this week. Unfortunately, the prematurity of this move could evoke the interpretation that it looks like a partisan effort to preclude the use of the margravial title by the designated heir-eventual: Prince Alexander of Saxe-Gessaphe, who is also not entitled to take up his adopted father's title of pretence, at least not while his Uncle Albert is alive. This move should be reversed and be changed by consensus only. FactStraight (talk) 00:27, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
- I think this should be moved back and all references to him as Margrave be removed until news get out about his exact title. The original decision (later revoked by Albert) was for Alexander of Saxe-Gessaphe to succeed his adopted father regardless of the existence of his uncle.--The Emperor's New Spy (talk) 02:42, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
- No, before Alexander was adopted by the Margrave in 1999 (which, ipso facto, did not confer dynastic rights), the dynasts of the Royal branch of the House of Wettin unanimously voted to approve Alexander de Afif as a dynast eligible to inherit the Royal claim. They did not at that time vote away their own rights of succession, nor accelerate Alexander ahead of themselves in the order of succession. But, knowing that none of them had dynastic issue -- while Alexander did (by his 1987 marriage to Gisela of Bavaria) -- they agreed in 1997 to allow Alexander to eventually inherit and transmit the Royal dynasty's legacy to his posterity after their deaths. Prince Albert (born 1934) later renegged on this agreement (although historically, such familial votes were not revocable), began styling himself "Duke of Saxony," and now prefers to recognize the male-line descendants of his late cousin, Prince Timo of Saxony (1923-82). But Timo's two sons were born of a 1952 marriage and a 1949 liaison with commoners which lacked both the consent of Margrave Friedrich Christian (1893-1968) at the time and the subsequent recognition of Margrave Maria Emanuel. Even if it's legitimate for Albert to revoke his 1997 consent, he would also need, at least, the revocation of the one other surviving male dynast -- Timo's brother, 90 year-old Prince Dedo (born 1922). This dispute was widely expected to become messy and unpleasant if Maria Emanuel died before his younger brother, Albert. I just didn't expect the gauntlet to be hurled first right here on Wikipedia. FactStraight (talk) 06:41, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
- Oh, I thought the 1990s vote was for having Alexander directly succeed his adopted father like a natural son. I guess I was wrong. Just want to make one correction Prince Dedo died in 2009, so Albert is the last male of the Albertine branch of the House of Wettin whose isn't of the product of an unequal marriage. The thing is we should just leave this article and other related article alone until something other than guesswork can be known. Also is it appropriate to call his wife Princess Elmira here when it was a morganatic marriage never recognized by either his father or brother?--The Emperor's New Spy (talk) 07:33, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
- No, the vote at the Whitsuntide '97 family conference preceded the adoption, so "jumping the line" wasn't even on the table when Maria Emanuel adopted Alexander in '99, nor were renunciations involved: see the history in this thread of newsgroup alt.talk. royalty. But I wasn't aware that Dedo had died -- that complicates matters. Although I think Alexander had long been accepted as heir-eventual by most of the Wettins, Timo's elder son, Ruediger von Sachsen, and Duke Albert are now likely to team up to disinherit him. The applicable rules in cases of this kind are labyrinthine and untested, see here (in particular, the sections on Misalliances and on Practice of Morganatic marriages). Strictly, I suspect that the Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen cousins have the least vulnerable claim now (as they do to Romania's crown), but since they've shown no more interest in Saxony than in Romania, the de facto competition for pretender (after Albert's death) is Alexander vs. Ruediger, both of whose claims have flaws -- and there's no objective authority to arbitrate the matter. Nothing is as messy, ugly or futile as intra-dynastic rivalry over an abolished throne -- quite literally, much ado about nothing... FactStraight (talk) 09:53, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
- Prince Alexander publicizes the 1997 document. (http://www.bild.de/regional/chemnitz/markgraf/dieses-geheime-papier-regelt-die-wettiner-nachfolge-25351102.bild.html) It is "Wir nehmen die von S.K.H Prinz Maria Emanuel Markgraf von Meissen Herzog zu Sachsen geaeusserte Absicht, unseren Neffen Prinz Alexsander die unmittelbare Nachfolge als Markgraf von Meissen zu ermoeglichen, zustimmend zur Kenntnis." (Google Translation: We assume that by HRH Prince Maria Emanuel, Margrave of Meissen, Duke of Saxe stated willingness to allow our nephew Prince Alexsander the immediate successor as Margrave of Meissen, with approval.) Genealogiajapan (talk) 16:54, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
- Three signatories retracted their approval for the 1997 agreement a decade ago, probably Prince Albert his wife and Prince Dedo, or maybe Prince Gero. [1] - dwc lr (talk) 19:20, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
- Prince Alexander publicizes the 1997 document. (http://www.bild.de/regional/chemnitz/markgraf/dieses-geheime-papier-regelt-die-wettiner-nachfolge-25351102.bild.html) It is "Wir nehmen die von S.K.H Prinz Maria Emanuel Markgraf von Meissen Herzog zu Sachsen geaeusserte Absicht, unseren Neffen Prinz Alexsander die unmittelbare Nachfolge als Markgraf von Meissen zu ermoeglichen, zustimmend zur Kenntnis." (Google Translation: We assume that by HRH Prince Maria Emanuel, Margrave of Meissen, Duke of Saxe stated willingness to allow our nephew Prince Alexsander the immediate successor as Margrave of Meissen, with approval.) Genealogiajapan (talk) 16:54, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
- No, the vote at the Whitsuntide '97 family conference preceded the adoption, so "jumping the line" wasn't even on the table when Maria Emanuel adopted Alexander in '99, nor were renunciations involved: see the history in this thread of newsgroup alt.talk. royalty. But I wasn't aware that Dedo had died -- that complicates matters. Although I think Alexander had long been accepted as heir-eventual by most of the Wettins, Timo's elder son, Ruediger von Sachsen, and Duke Albert are now likely to team up to disinherit him. The applicable rules in cases of this kind are labyrinthine and untested, see here (in particular, the sections on Misalliances and on Practice of Morganatic marriages). Strictly, I suspect that the Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen cousins have the least vulnerable claim now (as they do to Romania's crown), but since they've shown no more interest in Saxony than in Romania, the de facto competition for pretender (after Albert's death) is Alexander vs. Ruediger, both of whose claims have flaws -- and there's no objective authority to arbitrate the matter. Nothing is as messy, ugly or futile as intra-dynastic rivalry over an abolished throne -- quite literally, much ado about nothing... FactStraight (talk) 09:53, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
- Oh, I thought the 1990s vote was for having Alexander directly succeed his adopted father like a natural son. I guess I was wrong. Just want to make one correction Prince Dedo died in 2009, so Albert is the last male of the Albertine branch of the House of Wettin whose isn't of the product of an unequal marriage. The thing is we should just leave this article and other related article alone until something other than guesswork can be known. Also is it appropriate to call his wife Princess Elmira here when it was a morganatic marriage never recognized by either his father or brother?--The Emperor's New Spy (talk) 07:33, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
- No, before Alexander was adopted by the Margrave in 1999 (which, ipso facto, did not confer dynastic rights), the dynasts of the Royal branch of the House of Wettin unanimously voted to approve Alexander de Afif as a dynast eligible to inherit the Royal claim. They did not at that time vote away their own rights of succession, nor accelerate Alexander ahead of themselves in the order of succession. But, knowing that none of them had dynastic issue -- while Alexander did (by his 1987 marriage to Gisela of Bavaria) -- they agreed in 1997 to allow Alexander to eventually inherit and transmit the Royal dynasty's legacy to his posterity after their deaths. Prince Albert (born 1934) later renegged on this agreement (although historically, such familial votes were not revocable), began styling himself "Duke of Saxony," and now prefers to recognize the male-line descendants of his late cousin, Prince Timo of Saxony (1923-82). But Timo's two sons were born of a 1952 marriage and a 1949 liaison with commoners which lacked both the consent of Margrave Friedrich Christian (1893-1968) at the time and the subsequent recognition of Margrave Maria Emanuel. Even if it's legitimate for Albert to revoke his 1997 consent, he would also need, at least, the revocation of the one other surviving male dynast -- Timo's brother, 90 year-old Prince Dedo (born 1922). This dispute was widely expected to become messy and unpleasant if Maria Emanuel died before his younger brother, Albert. I just didn't expect the gauntlet to be hurled first right here on Wikipedia. FactStraight (talk) 06:41, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
- I think this should be moved back and all references to him as Margrave be removed until news get out about his exact title. The original decision (later revoked by Albert) was for Alexander of Saxe-Gessaphe to succeed his adopted father regardless of the existence of his uncle.--The Emperor's New Spy (talk) 02:42, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
- Now he uses the title of Margrave of Meissen. Need to move the page? Genealogiajapan (talk) 14:07, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
- I have moved both Alexander and Albert to the title of Margrave. I don't know how to go about reediting their introduction paragraph or some of the information to make it clear that there are two conflicting claims; if anyone could, please do so. Also Template:Saxon Royal Family should be updated to reflect two conflicting claims like Italy and Russia. Line of succession to the former Saxon thrones should be updated, too. --The Emperor's New Spy (talk) 23:47, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
- I fixed the Template:Saxon Royal Family but where should Princess Mathilde of Saxony (b. 1936) and Anastasia, Margravine of Meissen be placed. Do they have any opinion on this?
- I have moved both Alexander and Albert to the title of Margrave. I don't know how to go about reediting their introduction paragraph or some of the information to make it clear that there are two conflicting claims; if anyone could, please do so. Also Template:Saxon Royal Family should be updated to reflect two conflicting claims like Italy and Russia. Line of succession to the former Saxon thrones should be updated, too. --The Emperor's New Spy (talk) 23:47, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
After his death
[edit]So Albert has die, what does this mean for the succession? Has he even recognized Ruediger as his heir or does it pass to Alexander because Albert never changed the succession?--The Emperor's New Spy (talk) 19:54, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
- Line of succession to the former Saxon thrones and all related articles should be updated to show that Albert is dead.--The Emperor's New Spy (talk) 22:14, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
supercategory
[edit]Category:Saxon princes is a subcategory of Category:House of Wettin. That means every member of the former is indirectly a member of the latter. As is customary I removed the supercategory. Spy reverted, saying only "This category is necessary". Why is it necessary? —Tamfang (talk) 03:50, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
- Every article on Category:House of Wettin has a category about the house they are from and the title they held. There needs to be a category for his title Category:Saxon princes and his family Category:House of Wettin. The title like all the other titles are traditionally held by members of the House of Wettin thus those titles are categorized there. Just take a look at all the articles on Category:House of Wettin and Category:House of Wittelsbach. Every member of the house needs to be on that category.--The Emperor's New Spy (talk) 04:16, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
- Every member of the house is in that category if they're in a subcategory. If you're unhappy because subdivision means they don't all appear on the same page, well, guess what: the category is so crowded that they can't, anyway! —Tamfang (talk) 04:41, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
Clarification
[edit]According to ERHJ, at Maria Emanuel's funeral did Albert supposedly recognise Alexander as his heir, or as head of the house/Margrave? - dwc lr (talk) 20:16, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
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Move discussion in progress
[edit]There is a move discussion in progress on Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (royalty and nobility) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 22:46, 7 June 2023 (UTC)