Talk:Alan Jones (racing driver)

AGP

Why shouldn't the Australian GP line be in the lead? Why does being a Formula 1 driver supersede being Australian? It is a significant detail in the context of Australia even of it is not a significant detail in the context of Formula 1. --Falcadore (talk) 22:39, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Jones is notable for being a Formula One driver, not for being an Australian, and this race was really very unimportant in terms of his career. To put it in the very first paragraph, as if it was the most important thing the guy ever did, is a bit ridiculous. It'd be fine to make a bigger deal of it within the article body, or even much further down in the lead, but it doesn't belong that high up in the article of someone who did far more important things than that. Plus, that sentence was just thrown in there by an anon editor who was doing similar things to several articles, and not particularly well in any of them. Bretonbanquet (talk) 22:49, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

On edit: The lead is very small - if it were expanded, then this detail could be included, but not if the lead is going to remain that short. Bretonbanquet (talk) 22:50, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Plus, I see that the race wasn't even a Formula One race, but a kind of Formula Libre event with one other F1 car. It's just not relevant enough for the lead. Bretonbanquet (talk) 22:58, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, this is exactly what I mean, its a very blinkered view point. From a Formula One viewpoint it was not a significant result. But only from a Formula 1 viewpoint. Jones himself rates it very highly, because if the connection with his father Stan, who also won the Australian Grand Prix and also the history between the Jones and Brabham families. But more than just the personal, there is also from an Australian viewpoint, because the Australian Grand Priux is a very old race with cultural significance well beyond its history as a Formula 1 race. The race has grown and evolved along with Australia itself, parralleling the evolution of the country. The Formula 1 world championship represents just 33% of the races history.

Formula 1 was a part of the history of the Indy 500, but the history of that race is significantly richer than its relatively small F1 portion, the same is true of the Australian Grand Prix. There is more to the world than F1 you know. --Falcadore (talk) 23:34, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Well you don't have to tell me anything about non-Championship races, or that there's more to life than F1 - no-one has started more non-Championship race articles than I have, in case you weren't aware. The viewpoint I am taking is a general one, based on the fact that Jones is best known for his F1 activities, and the casual reader cannot be expected to know the importance of the AGP beyond its term as a WC event. I am very well aware of the rich heritage of the AGP, which stretched way prior to its status as a WC event. But my point is that to tack his easy victory in what is still a very minor race, with a low-quality field in world motor racing terms, into the tiny lead paragraph of an F1 world champion is not well-balanced. The best thing might be to develop a better lead paragraph (or 2 or 3) and include it in that. The small portion of the article body which I edited had been pretty badly written, and if the rest of it is written to the same standard, the whole thing could do with a revamp and expansion. As you know, Jones was/is easily the highest-profile Aussie driver ever, as well as the most successful, so he should have the article he deserves. The AGP aspect, including its importance to him because of his father's exploits, should be well covered within that. That one sentence as it stood did not explain its wider significance as something other than a very minor non-Champ event, something which has to be done in order for it to warrant its inclusion in the lead, in my opinion. I'd also think about moving it to Alan Jones (racing driver) to distance him from solely being associated with F1. Bretonbanquet (talk) 00:10, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Was is easily the highest-profile Aussie driver ever is an inaccurate statement, and somewhat surprising to hear from someone with your credentials. Leaving aside Jack Brabham for a moment, to dismiss the reputation of Peter Brock is to suggest that Richard Petty and the littany of Scandinavian rallyists have achieved nothing. I can assure when Brock is invited as guest of honour to the Goodwood Historic festival that his international reputation is not insignificant. How many race drivers do you think have nationally televised state funerals?

Additionally, the 1980 Australian Grand Prix was far from an insignificant event. It was the biggest open wheel race held in Australia for seven/eight years, maybe even as far back as the 1969 Tasman Series. It was also the first time Touring cars had been a support category for anything in about the same amount of time. It was the first open wheel race to have its event programme sold nationally in neswagents, unheard of at the time even for touring cars. Technical regulations do not decide an events lustre. --Falcadore (talk) 07:41, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

What's annoying me most right now is that I didn't think of Jack Brabham - my mistake. I've even met the guy, which makes it even more annoying. The others? You'll be aware that Australia is not the only country in the world, and accomplished and well-known as Brock etc undoubtedly are/were, internationally they are not as well known to the casual motor racing fan as Jones is. Although the fact is not to your taste, it's still a fact that F1 is the world's most popular series, and its drivers are the world's best known. I did not dismiss anyone's reputation, nor did I suggest that Brock's international reputation is insignificant. Furthermore, I am not denying that the AGP has always been one of the most important races in Australia for a very long time, if not the most. As far as national significance is concerned, no-one is implying that the race is not worthy in national terms. So why isn't it explained fully, with particular reference to Jones, in this article? Instead of thrashing around here arguing about something we effectively agree on, why don't we work on the article? You have ignored all talk of actually improving the article in favour of waving your flag. All I want to see is this point explained properly rather than have one sentence bunged in there in an unhelpful place, where it doesn't do either Jones or the race any justice. On your last point, no, technical regulations do not decide an event's lustre. As far as international recognition goes, however, it is undoubtedly the quality of the field that determines how important an event is, and half the field in this race were not notable enough even to have their own articles here. Bretonbanquet (talk) 11:10, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

I've added a preliminary note about the AGP into what will hopefully become an extended lead section. More work to be done. Bretonbanquet (talk) 11:26, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Citations

This article is seriously lacking in citations. As Jones is a former World Drivers' Champion, there should be ample reliable sources to cite. Bahnfrend (talk) 02:18, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Indy cars

I see Jones had a DNS at Onterio & a DNQ at Indy in the 1977 USAC Championship Car season. Do we have any additional information on this?--Kpaspery (talk) 09:18, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

Does anyone have a Reference for the "DNQ" at Indy in 1977? I cannot find any evidence of this anywhere. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dora Domino (talk • contribs) 18:01, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

I also could not find any sources to support this. champcarstats.com shows Jones as having one 1 x DNS/DNQ in 1977 (i.e. not 2) and he is not listed at racing-reference.info's 1977 Indianapolis 500 page, which list drivers who failed to qualify. In addition, pages 58-59 of Jones' autobiography Driving Ambition describe his decision to do a season of USAC racing in 1977 followed by a description of him attempting to qualify for a USAC race but withdrawing from the race because he wasn't fast enough. It doesn't identify the race, but reading it, it sounds like this was his first USAC race - that and the decision to withdraw points to it being the DNS at Ontario (which is supported by racing-reference.info). There's no mention of him trying again at Indy (and I'd expect that to get a mention). DH85868993 (talk) 09:47, 21 January 2018 (UTC)

I wouldn't trust any of the Sources that quote DNQ or DNS for Ontario. Alan Brown states "AP" - Also Practiced and does not list him as even trying to Qualify.

http://www.oldracingcars.com/results/result.php?RaceID=Y77A

I seem to recall an Interview in 1978 where he basically said he had a go (i.e. practised) but thought it so unsafe that he didn't even want to Qualify let alone Race. I might be biased but I don't believe it was a lack of speed just did not want a bar of it!

The other thing supporting about him not being at Indy would have been he was well and truly into his Shadow drive and wasn't even doing Can Am in the States in parallel (until later in the year after he won in Austria and Don Nicholls thought it would be great promotion for him to do a couple of Can Am rounds). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dora Domino (talk • contribs) 12:42, 21 January 2018 (UTC)

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