Talk:Al-Tughra'i

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Reliable sources?

Per The Encyclopaedia of Islam, Vol X, François de Blois, page 599;

"AL-TUGHRA1, MU'AYYID AL-DIN ABU ISMA'IL AL-HUSAYN b. Ali al-Munshi' al-Isbahani, secretary, Arabic poet and alchemist. He was born in 453/1061 at Isfahan, and his poems give ample testimony of his lasting attachment to his native town. He entered the service of Saldjuks at the time of Malik Shah and went on to become chief secretary under that ruler's son, Muhammad I, with the titles munshi\ mutawalli diwan al-tughra' and sahib diwan al-insha', in short, he was the second most senior official (after the wazir} in the civil administration of the Saldjukid empire."

Per A Lost Text By Zosimos Reproduced in an Old Alchemy Book, H. S. El Khadem, J. Chem. Educ., 1995, 72 (9), p 774;

"An Arabic translation of a text entitled "Keys of Wisdom," by the famous fourth century alchemist Zosimos, has been found in an Alchemy book written by a twelveth century Kurd, named Al-Tughra'i."

Hassan S. El Khadem, 89, an emeritus professor of chemistry at American University, died of heart failure on May 20 during a trip to Cairo. Clearly not an historian.--Kansas Bear (talk) 03:29, 25 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"Arabic" is a language, "Arabic poet" means a poet who composed his poems in the Arabic language. EOI uses "Arabic" for a lot of people, including Farabi ("one of the foremost Arabic philosophers"). The two primary source for his Arab origin seems to be fake. Ibn Hazm died in 1064, while Al-Tughrai was born in 1061. How could he write a biography for Al-Tughrai? And Ibn Khalikan is also not cited properly, besides, we couldn't rely on that because he may be biased. -- Mazandar (talk) 09:52, 25 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Re-Orienting the Renaissance: Cultural Exchanges with the East, ed. Gerald Maclean, page 116;

"Not until the seventeenth century do a few scholars make a serious start at translating the great Arab poets, such as al-Tughrai."

Al-Bārūdī Precursor of the Modern Arabic Poetic Revival, M. M. Badawi, Die Welt des Islams, New Series, Vol. 12, Issue 4 (1969), 235;

"He imitated well known ancient Arab poets, e.g. al-Nabigha al Dhubyani, Abu Nuwas, al-Sharif al-Radiyy, al-Tughra'i...."

This is what I have found, so far. Do you have anything besides a professor of chemistry?

FYI, according to dictionary.com, Arabic can mean Arab. --Kansas Bear (talk) 02:38, 26 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

EOI uses the word "Arabic" (and sometimes "Arab") very carelessly, many figures are simply described as "Arabic", when in fact they were of non-Arab origin. The other two references are superficiality calling him Arab in a list of famous names in Arabic poetry. So Abu Nowas was also Arab huh? The books are also about irrelevant subjects.

Islamic Culture, Volume 75, 2001, p. 40 mentions that he was "of Persian origin and a native of Isfahan".
Concise encyclopaedia of Arabic civilization: the Arab East, 1960, p. 535 mentions that "an Arabic poet, (d. ca. 1120), of Persian descent, born in Isfahan, who because of his fine handwriting obtained a position as secretary (katib) in the chancellery of the Saljuq". -- Mazandar (talk) 09:21, 26 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You need to start checking your sources.

Neither ‎Muhammad Asad or Marmaduke Pickthall are academic historians. Stephan Ronart appears to be a modern historian of such titles as, Albanien von heute and La Turquie D'Aujourd'hui. I see nothing that lends him any credibility for medieval/Islamic/Arab Studies.

"The books are also about irrelevant subjects."

Only one is a book, the other is an article in a journal. More relevant than books written or edited by non-academics or historian(s) with no specialization in this particular field.

Compared to Encyclopedia of Arabic Literature, Volume 2, ed. Julie Scott Meisami, Paul Starkey, page 783;

"Mu'ayyid al-Din Abu Isma'il al-Husayn ibn 'Ali al Tughra'i was an Arab poet." -- Carole Hillenbrand.

or...Islamic Desk Reference, ed. E. J. Van Donzel, page 457;

"al-Tughra'i, Mu'ayyid al-Din: Arab poet, calligrapher and alchemist from Isfahan.." --Kansas Bear (talk) 20:06, 26 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Kansas Bear:, BTW, I found this one by Philip Khuri Hitti:

Hitti, Philip K. (1977). History of the Arabs from the earliest times to the present (10th ed. ed.). London: Macmillan. p. 381. ISBN 978-0-333-09871-4. Even the best among them, e.g. the Arabic-writing Persian poet-statesman al-Tughra'i (d ca. 1121) (...) {{cite book}}: |access-date= requires |url= (help); |edition= has extra text (help)

-- Mazandar (talk) 15:29, 26 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

With the Hitti source and the Hillenbrand and Donzel sources;

"Mu'ayyad al-Din al-Tughra'i was born in Isfahan, Persia, of Arab(Hillendbrand&Donzel sources) or Persian(Hitti source) (ethnicity/ancestry), and composed poems in the Arabic language."

We can use ethnicity or ancestry, which ever sounds better. Your thoughts? --Kansas Bear (talk) 18:29, 26 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Mazandar: @Kansas Bear: I just added the Van Donzel source. Feel free to add other WP:RS to the article when you have time. - LouisAragon (talk) 15:06, 17 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]