Talk:Al-Ghazali/Archive 2

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Major Works

the following is inappropriately worded,

• as Ghazali effectively discovered philosophical skepticism that would not be commonly seen in the West until René Descartes, George Berkeley and David Hume. The encounter with skepticism led Ghazali to embrace a form of theological occasionalism, or the belief that all causal events and interactions are not the product of material conjunctions but rather the immediate and present will of God.

He didn't "discover" it he developed it, and he didn't "encounter" it. These terms objectify the issue to the point of implying they are an entity separate from him which he found somewhere and befriended.Iβи Kᾱτhiɍ (talk) 08:00, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

this statement although accurate is problematic,

• or the belief that all causal events and interactions are not the product of material conjunctions but rather the immediate and present will of God.

Al ghazali believed he witnessed the reason for the cause and effect or he could see the hand of God at work in them directly, he didn't give up the material causes and effect, he was a scientist also so it needs to be expressed better.

• or the belief that all causal events and interactions are not merely the product of material conjunctions but simultaneously the immediate and present will of God.

i thought this was more accurate as the original implicitly implied he didn't believe in the material causes which are stated in the Quran, rather islam says look for Gods signs in them and this is what al Ghazali did and saw.Iβи Kᾱτhiɍ (talk) 08:07, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

I have read the article more carfully and thier are a number of issues regarding this understanding of cause and effect. This pre dates ghazali himself is founded in the Quran in a number of verses...

• "You threw not when you did throw, but Allah threw." (8:17)
• And that it is He Who makes laugh, and makes weep, and that it is He Who gives death and gives life." (54:43-44)

Allah dissociated making-laugh, making-weep, the giving of death and of life from their respective causes, attributing all to Himself.

Similarly

• "And We carried him upon a thing of planks and nails, That ran (upon the waters) in Our sight, as a reward for him who was rejected." (54:13) reffering to nuh and the ship he was on.
• Don't you see that ships sail on the sea by God's blessing so that He can show you something of His signs?...

(Qur'an, 31:31)

The Quran is full of these disasosiations from the physical causes to the spiritual reality of the matter. I think these points should be reworded in the article.Iβи Kᾱτhiɍ (talk) 22:03, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

A lot can be said on this issue but i thought id Quote something on this specifically as the article needs better phrasing becouse at present in its literal wording it accuses al ghazali of not believing in something fundamental in Islam and that is the physical causes.

• "Things do not act of their own nature. Neither does water quench thirst, nor does bread sate hunger, nor does fire burn, but Allah creates satedness simultaneously with eating, and hunger at other times. Likewise, drinking is the drinker's doing while quenchedness is from Allah, and killing is the killer's doing while death is from Allah." Ibn Khafif (d. 371), al-`Aqida al-Sahiha (§41), in Ibrahim al-Dusuqi Shatta, Sira Ibn Khafif (Cairo: al-Hay'a al-`Amma li Shu'un al-Matabi` al-Amiriyya, 1977)

• A man asked al-Tustari (d. 283): "What is sustenance?" He said: "Perpetual dhikr." The man said: "I was not asking about that, but about what sustains one." He replied: "O man, things are sustained by nothing but Allah." The man said: "I did not mean that, I asked you about what is indispensible!" He replied: "Young man, Allah is indispensible." Abu Nu`aym, Hilya al-Awliya' (10:218 #15022).

• "Satiation, quenching, and combustion are phenomena which Allah alone creates, since bread does not create satiation, nor does water create quenching, nor does fire create combustion, although they are causes for such results. But the Creator is Himself the Causator (al-Musabbib), not the causes. This is just as Allah said: "You threw not when you did throw, but Allah threw." (8:17) He denied that His Prophet was the creator of the throw, although he was its cause. Allah also said: "And that it is He Who makes laugh, and makes weep, and that it is He Who gives death and gives life." (54:43-44) Thus He dissociated making-laugh, making-weep, the giving of death and of life from their respective causes, attributing all to Himself. Similarly, al-Ash`ari (d. 330?) dissociated satiation, quenching, and combustion from their causes, attributing them all to the Creator Who said: "Such is Allah, your Lord. There is no God save Him, the Creator of all things." (6:102) "Is there any creator other than Allah?" (35:3) "Nay, but they denied what they could not comprehend and whereof the interpretation had not yet come unto them." (10:39) "Did you deny My signs when you could not compass them in knowledge, or what was it you did?" (27:84)." Ibn `Abd al-Salam (d. 660), al-Mulha fi I`tiqad Ahl al-Haqq in Rasa'il al-Tawhid (p. 11-27) and al-Subki, Tabaqat al-Shafi`iyya al-Kubra (8:219-229).

Taken from "Shaykh al-Butis Commentary on the Hikam (#3): Foreordained Destiny and the Inefficacy of Material Causes-and-Effects"

Iβи Kᾱτhiɍ (talk) 06:16, 24 January 2011 (UTC)