Talk:Akatsuki (Naruto)/Archive 5

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Naruto Hurricane Chronicles

When N.H.C. comes out does that mean we'll be under N.H.C. or Naruto or both? Also will have to move some characters (when they get their own articles that is) will be under N.H.C. and others won't? Where will Itachi and Kisame be at. I'll help any way I can (looks like I'll have to wait to ask for a Hidan article until after all this B.S. is over).Sam ov the blue sand 17:07, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Hidan won't need an article unless he gets a ton of backstory and/or survives the current battle and goes on to do something important. Nemu 17:10, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

I know that and that wasn't my question my question is about N.H.C.Sam ov the blue sand 18:14, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you're talking about. We won't have to move any characters in this article if that's what you're asking. The Splendiferous Gegiford 18:34, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

(sigh) What I'm trying to say is that when every member has his or her own article, are they going to be under Naruto Hurricane Chronicles (which will probaly have it's own article like DBZ) or under Naruto. Sorry if I confused you with my onslaught of questions.Sam ov the blue sand 19:27, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

It's the same basic series in the manga, so it won't really matter. And what do you mean "under"? The Splendiferous Gegiford 19:32, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes I know that it's the same basic series in the manga so was DBZ but it has it's own article because it's considered a diffferent series and Naruto Hurricane Chronicles will be considered a different anime series apart from Naruto, so it will have it's own article. And what I mean "under" is where will the members (from akatsuki) be at, Naruto Hurricane Chronicles or Naruto because some are exclusive to Naruto Hurricane Chronicles and others aren't.Sam ov the blue sand 19:50, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

They aren't going to be moved to a different article just for the anime's sake if that's what you're asking; there won't be a Naruto Akatsuki page and a Hurricane Akatsuki page. At best, there'll be a single sentence saying they appear only in the Hurricane Chronicles, and that'll be it. ~SnapperTo

Well at least someone gets what I'm saying but I'm not talking about the Akatsuki page I'm talking about akatsuki member articles like Sasori's article where will he go, Naruto or N.H.C.Sam ov the blue sand 20:09, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Nowhere. They're the same series. It's just a timeskip. One sentence explaining that fact is all that will be added. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 20:16, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Technacly when N.H.C. comes out it won't be the same series.Sam ov the blue sand 20:20, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

"Technically" it will be the same series. Same characters (mostly), same setting, same overall plot. We're not going to be shuffing around every character into different places when the manga and anime essentially follow the same path. This isn't like Dragon Ball where the anime breaks apart the content and retitles it several times. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 20:22, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

OK whatever you say Someguy.Sam ov the blue sand 00:24, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Sam, it will be the same series, just under a new banner to express the change from filler to standard storyline. Just as it went form Naruto to Kakashi Gaiden back to Naruto II. It's all the same story, all the same people, nothing will change but the name. It's not like DB GT, where every thing has a differnt age connotation, for NHC, it will all have the same connection as it did just after the Kakashi Gaiden miniseries ended. Nothing to worry about, no major changes will be made. It's all going to be the same, with perhaps a few refrences to filler epps in the anime. 05:27, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Kakuzu

Has anyone read the latest chapter? (333) Should some mention be made of what's happened? -Retlor

Yes, I think it should... After all, it's all definite fact now, why should it not be included straight away?

It's already in there. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 19:37, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

At the end of some manga translations it says that "Kakuzu is finished only Hidan remains" or something like that, depends on where you get it from. Should it be added that he might possibly be deceased?Sam ov the blue sand 21:58, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

We don't deal in possibles. He's either dead or he isn't. Right now, he isn't. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 22:03, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

But on Asuma's page when he was possibly killed they put (deceased)? next to his age, shouldn't we do the same? Sam ov the blue sand 22:05, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

You're mistaken. That was added when he was confirmed to be dead, not before. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 22:07, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Well if you say so, but I still think I saw it on Asuma's page before hand. Ah never mind.Sam ov the blue sand) 22:14, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

If I remember correctly, it was put on his page before the raw of chapter 328 was out because several sources had confirmed that Asuma was dead in that chapter. It was only added the day before the full raw came out, though. The Splendiferous Gegiford 00:29, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Should Kakuzu's entry be editted to clarify that he can completely separate his limbs where they are attatched by those black rope like tenticles? its clearly shown in 333 that they move on their own when detatched. as it is now its a tad ambiguous. Xeago Xeago 00:00, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

They were underground, not moving on their own. Kakuzu remained connected to them the entire time. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 00:03, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

It does happen. It also helps to get a better quality scan mid-discussion. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 01:26, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I think Xeago is right... Kakuzu's arm seemes to be severed from the rest of him if you look closely on page 5-6... The "threads" that extends from Kakuzu's hand doesn't reconnect with his arm until page 6... On the other hand (no pun intended), we should not put things up just because of their appearence but only as they truly ARE.

Look closely at those pages. Specifically, read the bottom left panel on 5. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 00:28, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Actaully, on close inspection, I hadn't noticed that Kakuzu was standing up beforehand. I guess he can control them remotely. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 00:33, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, that's right... Don't just judge by the text (from a fan dub above all), a picture can say more than a thousand words... Wait a second, does this mean that Someguy is admitting defeat? I don't think I've EVER experienced that before... This is totally weird o_O!

Helps to get a better scan halfway through. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 01:33, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Issue 333, page 4. You see Kakuzu's Sleeve partialy cut off by Hidan's 3xScyth, no tendrils, no connection to Kakuzu. Page 4, the arm is shown snatching the trench knife out of the shadow (top of page), then it tosses it aside and hits the ground (much like you do when you get up). There is a pool of the black tendril stuff that comes out of the ground with no connection to Kakuzu shown. It then flies back to Kakuzu through the air (bottom of page 5), not back underground. If it was still connected at that point it would have had to do more damage to the ground between K. and the Trench Knife. Also, there are tendrils come out of the goo that are not connected to the hand, I think that this can mean two things: first, that the limbs cannot move themselves, but rather that the goo animates the limbs, and two, that the goo is actuly blood. My hypothesis (which will never see main page until it's proven or disproven) is that like Sasori, Kakuzu has sacrificed much of his humanity for the power that he has. This follows the deep running theme of the Akatsuki, and if I am right, Kakuzu not only survived the attack by Kakashi, but also is forced to show his true form. I expect to see at least a couple more issues with battle between them before either Hidan or Kakuzu are incapacitated.65.92.233.87 02:56, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, that last one was me. Still getting the hang of it.Xeago 02:57, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I've already changed my position, but that's a good analysis (the first half of it, anyway) for anyone else questioning it. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 03:01, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Once again, Xeago and I think alike, but I believe that Kakuzu's ability is more like Kidoumaru's web skills IE. He mixes chakra into his blood and then remotly controls his detatced limbs with the chakra flow thoughout them... Actully, I've had the theory that Kakuzu and Hidan are mirror images of eachother... Think about it, Hidan is a religious fanatic, Kakuzu is a obsessive materialist, Hidan is a loud bigmouth, Kakuzu is down to earth and reserved, Hidan is immortal but rather weak and vaunrable in general, Kakuzu is mortal but he is strong and nearly indestructable... See any patterns here?

He is dead, kakashi used raikiri through his heart. if you read the chapter kakshis hand is coming out his body.

You don't know that he's dead. You don't know that his heart was where Kakashi hit him. We already know he has exstensive body mods, but we don't know how far they go. The simple fact that he can separate part of his body while retaining control is a huge indicator that he's played around with his physiology some how. If I were him, I wouldn't leave my my heart in it's standard place, not if I had some say in it. Xeago 02:57, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

What's this in Kakuzu's description about five different beings, inside of him, that allows him to control the elements? Rayfire 20:36, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

It's an ability he unveils in chapter 334. It's quite true, but I removed it until we can get a better description. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 20:38, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Where did you find 334? I'd love to see it sooner than later... Xeago

I've seen spoilers, not the chapter. That won't be out till tommorow. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 01:30, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Kakuzu definitely not dead. Also, update needed to his entry. There are now some better pictures of him we might be able to use. -Retlor

Notice the similarities between Kakuzu's eyes and those of the masks? I think that he's wearing a fifth mask that amplifies his natural elemental affinity. I'd bet a coffee that it's earth. Also, on the last page, Kakashi comments on how strong they are "Esspecialy the masked one", refering to Kakuzu still wearing a mask? Xeago 00:51, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm... Notice how my analysis of Kakuzu & Hidan being mirror images of each other seemes to get more and more accurate? Sure, we don't know all details yet, thus we can't jump to conclusions, but I stand for my theory... I could bet a nickle that the "masked monster" that instantly died controlled suiton and once all of those "blood golems" are dead, Kakuzu is done for... Well, that's just speculation.

Both of our assumptions seem to be spot on. Although, I don't think that he will die if the 3 remaining masks break, rather, that he's without the enhancements he had been controling before. They seem to be puppet type beings, still controled by Kakuzu, but no need for strings. I think thats cause they are made out of his blood. Also, why don't you sign your posts? Xeago 01:06, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I know speculaton is no-no but does anyone think the destroyed mask is the mask of water. I believe that Kakuzu's element is infact Earth because it seems the mask creatures use their own jutsu but I can't tell if they say them or not, and Kakuzu use his own hand signs to do the earth jutsu. One more thing the masks don't seem to grant Kakuzu any special powers besides controlling all five elements. And is it just me or did Kakuzu look sad when the one mask creature died, I mean he did look back at it didn't he?Sam ov the blue sand 03:54, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

villians like him simply just don't die in one chapter, or from one hit for that matter. it's gonna be a long battle between him/hidan and kakashi's team and it's gonna be span over at least a couple more episodes even after 334.Sphinxridd 04:54, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Had you asked me 15 minutes ago (when I started writing this peice) what I thought Kakuzu's natural affinity was, I would have said earth. I can't be certain any more. I had thought this because he used hand seals to activate the iron body tech that Kakashi busted through. But, when he controls the 3 shinobi hearts, his hands stay moulded. whether this is just to maintain control, or to actualy activate the moves the beasts execute we can't be sure. I see something else too: Kakuzu's "face" has all the traits of the masks the beasts are faced by. Black eyes with white pupils. the mouldable/controllable string/tenticle stuff is still present, even after the monsters (who are made of the same stuff) leave. I think that like Sasori, Kakuzu's heart is able to move separate from his body main. I think he's like one of the creatures. Another version of a puppet master whos become like his puppets. A state of living death. Also, when his arm was moving on its own, it was by the will of one of the extra hearts. Any one else catch that? I'm working on a serious rework on the Kakuzu article to deal with some of the changes we've seen and to make it flow better. Xeago 02:48, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I found that someone wrote that the threads going all around his body is similar to Frankenstein's monster. I see what they are saying, but I doubt it should be put on the article.

Since Kakuzu can mold his masks together to attack as one, would this be considered a bloodline limit? It isn't an actual new element like wood or ice, but he does fuse his fuuton and katon masks together, and Kakashi says that the edition of wind makes his suiton attack unable to stop it. Kage-Lupus 02:17, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

No, A blood line limit is a handed down tech within a specific clan. His Tech is an advanced blood tech, but not a bloodline limit. His ability to mould two chakras is not his own ability, but an ability endowed by the multiple hearts he posseses. If he loses those hearts, he is unable to combine the two elements together. If he had a bloodline limit, he would only lose it when he died his final death. -Xeago (at work) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.236.93.210 (talk) 14:38, 30 December 2006 (UTC).

Just as a side note, according to the cover of the Naruto manga, volume 36, it seemes Kakuzu has black eyes, yellow iris and red-brown colored skin... Oh, and Xeago, I don't sign my posts because there is nothing to sign... I'm an unregistered user of wikipedia, I'm nobody while I'm here, and that's the way I like it.

His sclerae look dark red to me rather than black, and his irises are green: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v34/frostious/kakuzu_colour.jpg Still, because that spread had different colours (for Hidan, for example) I guess it still isn't definite that these are the "real" colours. //Frostious 13:02, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Oh well, it was a really, really, REALLY small picture I saw, so I couldn't be absolutely certain... We'll just have to wait and see until the anime catches up... Whenever that's gonna be. 81.224.28.214 03:09, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

The one color picture of him, conviently located at the top of the page, shows white eyes. Green is fan-colored. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 02:37, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Actually, Someguy, that picture is from the volume 36 manga cover, I checked the smaller picture again (it's at narutofan, btw) and on a MUCH closer inspection, it seemes like his eyes actually ARE green. 217.208.27.4 13:13, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Future changes?

When the english dub of the anime introduces us to the akatsuki and if they choose to name Akatsuki, "dawn" or sunrise", will this article change name into said name then? Like what happened to Maito Gai's article where he is called "Might Guy"?

First off, Might Guy is Might Guy. "Maito Gai" is nothing but an accented Japanese pronounciation. Second, we'll cross that road when we come to it. However, you can be reasonably certain that like with virtually every other orgainzation, they'll keep this name the same. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 01:33, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I may be wrong again but haven't they said Akatsuki before in the anime at the end of the series?Sam ov the blue sand 03:37, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Not in the English dub they haven't. Treima 03:39, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Well I was wrong again, but I don't think they'll change the name to Dawn or Sunrise it wouldn't sound right.Sam ov the blue sand 03:44, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't think so either, if only because there is official merchandise out there available in the States that say Akatsuki in Romaji. But, who knows. They were willing to call Rasengan "Power Strike", possibly the dumbest translation they could have possibly come up with, so I won't be surprised either way. Treima 03:50, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

They're not calling Rasengan "Power Strike". Maile Flanigan said she's said Rasengan before in a recording. "Power Strike" is just the temporary video game name. The Splendiferous Gegiford 21:09, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Wow there calling Rasengan "Power Strike" that sounds gay, so what are they calling Chidori?Sam ov the blue sand 03:53, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Chidori, but that's in the games and they don't count. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 03:54, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

That's good I got worried there for a second.Sam ov the blue sand 03:57, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

No, I think they called it "Lighting Blade" when Kakashi was fighting Zabuza. Sphinxridd 15:16, 1 December 2006 (EST)

Gaara vs. Sasuke is coming this month, and episode 67 is set for 12/23, so we will know the English translation soon enough. Treima 04:01, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

"Power Strike"? That sounds about par for the course for the manga translation. NeoChaosX (he shoots, he scores!) 18:31, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

It's true that Maito Gai is a katakana translation of Might Guy, but if Masashi had intended for Gai's name to truly be "Might Guy", I believe he would've settled for something like "Seiryoku Gai"... Personally, I still think that he choosed "Maito Gai" because it would be a clear referance to his strong character, but that's just me... Rasengan = Power Strike? And how many hate letters does the dubbers get each day? I'm a member of the movement that emphasizes the use of original names, both character, techniques and other things alike, instead of dubbed versions of them.

Power Strike is a video game only name. The Splendiferous Gegiford 21:10, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

First, i want to cleear up the chidori lightning blade thing. Chidori(one thousand birds) is a lightning element jutsu that Kakashi created. Rakiri(lightning blade/edge/cut) is a enhanced version. So what he used on Zabuza and what he taught Sasuke are different jutsu's.

I don't know what that statement is doing here (kinda off-topic), but since it is here I guess I can pay attention to it... No, Raikiri and Chidori aren't different techniques, the only difference between them is actually how "complete" the technique is... Raikiri is a S-rank technique, due to it being the "perfect" form of the Chidori (A-rank), but that's as far as differences goes... During Kakashi's training with Sasuke, he, himself, used "Raikiri" as a synonym for "Chidori" and during the chuunin exam, Gai said that "Raikiri" was the nickname Kakashi gave Chidori after cutting a lightning bolt in half (how true that statement is is still under debate).

Man they're calling Chidori "One Thousand Birds" now. How dumb. But I think we're going a little off topic here talking about Chidori and Rasengan and Raikiri. It's an Akatsuki article after all. Gaara the Fifth Kazekage 02:50, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Kisame

I just noticed the last sentence in Kisame's entry implying that using water-based jutsu without a water source is somehow impressive. But didn't Yamato create a waterfall without any apparent water source? Did I miss anything in the manga stating that only the best water-using shinobi could do this? focoma 18:38, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I think it's because Yamato has the genes of the first Hokage. Read wikipedia's entry on Yamato. Sphinxridd 15:13, 1 December 2006 (EST)

the first uses wood jutsu, the second uses water jutsus. didn't the second simply spit for a water source? is this impressive feat spitting?

When you regurgitate more water than you have lung capacity then, yes, it is. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 05:14, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Yamato did not create a waterfall out of no where, it came from the ground, he is capable of using both earth and water jutsu, and was able to draw from exsisting stuff. The second was able to summon huge ammounts of water without a source near by, either in the air, or nearby ground. Xeago 20:00, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually it might be because he has some of the first hokages dna in him wich alternatively is the 2nds brother so he has just a tad bit of the seconds abilityNaruto editor 17:55, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Only the second hokage and Kisame can summon water out of no where. Most water jutsu specialists need a body of water for their jutsu. Apparently the second was so skilled at water jutsu that he surpassed this limitation. I don't know if Kisame can do this because I don't remember anywhere in the manga stating that he could.

He does it in his fight against Team Gai. -Retlor

Though it would be an interesting conversation on a forum about the familial CHakra affinity of the First Hokage's family being water that's best left for a forum. Kisame executed massive water techniques in a the land of the Wind, a freakin desert. That qualifies as impressive, most impressive.Rayfire 19:37, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Akatsuki Leader/Itachi

I'm gonna include how the eye pattern is similar to that of Yuhi Kurenai because it just is. Also I don't know why Itachi is listed only as a genjutsu specialist. Having the sharingan to copy jutsu of countless jonin who are sent after you since you are a missing nin will definitly make anyone a master in all three forms of jutsu. We've seen Tsukiyomi (genjutsu) and Amaterasu (ninjutsu), not to mention that exploding bushin trick (ninjutsu). so I'm gonna include both mastery on ninjutsu and genjutsu on Itachi.

Re: Leader - That would just be speculation, isn't it? Has it been confirmed in the manga that the leader and Kurenai had the same eye patterns? To me, they both have round red eyes, so do a couple other characters.--Sphinxridd 15:31, 6 December 2006 (UTC)--Sphinxridd 15:31, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Re: Itachi - I'm not sure how specifically 'specialist' is defined. I think I like what's in the profile right now - "Defining characteristics: Mastery of the Sharingan and Mangekyo Sharingan, extremely skilled with genjutsu and ninjutsu" The choice of words is good and the statement doesn't underestimate him.--Sphinxridd 15:31, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Itachi Story

I know that there was a debate about wether Itachi should get his own page. Akatsuki has a lot of members and I don't think all of them can fit on one page. Also Itachi has too little information present for him. For a guy who impacts main characters like Sasuke and Orochimaru he definitly should have more information. The problem is everytime I include stuff about his family/clan life its deleted. Since nobody else wants to do it, I'm willing to go into detail about Itachi's story and include factual not speculative things revealed about him. Don't worry I'm not gonna write 50 paragraphs; I'm just going to include as much is necessary. I'll check back this message to see if anyone has a problem with this and then I'll edit his article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.108.56.182 (talk) 11:22, 7 December 2006 (UTC).

You assume more than we know, which is why your information is deleted consistently. What we do know is already there. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 15:43, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Itachi should have his own userpage. As it was previously stated, he impacts a main character and a major villan in the series. He's definetly became an important character since he was personally introduced. If Tsunade has her own article, hey, I know Itachi's not the Fifth Hokage or anything, but he's one of the most important characters in the series. --Itachi Uchiha13 01:37, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

That's not what we mean. The point is not whether or not he is important enough to have his own page, it is about whether or not we have enough information on him to give him his own page. It would be pointless to make a stub article with very little information when we can instead keep him on the Akatsuki page, where he has a comparable amount of information to the others. Treima 02:15, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Itachi is an important character, no doubt about it and I'm sure(I hope) we'll learn more of his background and development as the story progresses. After all, Sasuke IS going to face him at some point. For now, we don't know much more about him than the average Akatsuki member. You can actually argue Kakuzu and others may have had more appearances and fights than Itachi. Sphinxridd 05:03, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Seconded. No stub spamming! - Malomeat 02:16, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

First of all Someguy0830 I always put factual information in here. You should learn to follow your own advise and discuss things before you delete them. If you want me to give you speculation then tell me why the Itachi article states that he chose to torture Kurenai, Asuma and Kakashi because he "wanted them to witness his power" (speculative because there could be many reasons for him doing this such him not really being an evil person or not wanting to get involved in unnecessary fights at the time, speculation makes this line unnecessary)or that Itachi's "main area of expertise is genjutsu". The fact remains we don't know enough about him to call him a genjutsu specialist. All I ever included was that he likely has mastered many jutsu because he has the sharingan and since he's chased by many hunter nins he might know many jutsus. That much isn't speculation but just fact or are you telling me that even with the sharingan all he has are amaterasu and tsukiyomi. I want to include what we know about him and you are wrong because everything we know about him isn't in this article (him killing shisui, his mother's weird line "he a bit special", him and his father walking past each other, his habit of not really making any friends which his father said, the uchiha clan secret meeting place and its secret inside the tatami mat and the significance of the tengu figurines around it, kyubi statement of uchiha madara and wether Itachi has the same cursed chakra). I don't want to get into that wikipedia game of you monitoring everything I do on this website and deleting whatever I contribute. So how about this, when I have the time, I'll write up an edit of the Itachi article and then we can DISCUSS whats wrong with it rather than going back and forth rewriting this stuff. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.108.56.182 (talk • contribs).

Him killing Shisui is in the article, try reading it. How is walking past someone quietly anything but speculation when interpreting it? His mothers's line is also interpretable, so more speculation. No friends is of no consequence. Uchiha meeting place is all speculation, as we don't know what it's for. That whole list you just typed up is almost entirely speculative. Itachi focusing mainly on genjutsu is a fact, since he uses it more often than actual fighting. He's never been chased by any hunter nin that we've heard of, so also speculative. You need to learn the difference between what you think you know and what is actually known. Also, stop impersonating a registered account. Either sign in or sign your posts correctly. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 07:30, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Guys, no need to get upset. I think a little speculation is fine, as long as it's based on common sense and common logic. It wouldn't be much fun if the manga spills out every single little detail. It's the reader's imagination and reasonable speculation that make up for the missing pieces. Take Itachi killing Shisui as an example:

Did Itachi kill Shisui?

Strictly speaking, no, because there was no evidence, no witness, no confession. Nothing.

But it's logical (and frankly, fair enough) to assume that he did. He did not deny it when Sasuke confronted him about it and Itachi hinted killing one's best friend was necessary to get Mangekyo Sharingan. -Sphinxridd 20:10, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Itachi admits to killing Shisui. That's confirmed. We're not allowed to speculate on these articles, no matter how obvious it may be. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 20:25, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Not allowed? Well, these below are speculations currently in the Itachi's piece. They should all be removed then.

"The reason Itachi killed everyone in his clan except for Sasuke remains unclear. When questioned by Sasuke, he replied, "To test my 'utsuwa'." In Japanese, 'utsuwa' (器) can mean "vessel," or "container," but it can also mean "ability," or "tool." In context, Itachi was more than likely referring to his own power, but this can't be said for certain. Itachi also briefly makes reference to some ultimate purpose behind the Uchiha clan, but what this is has yet to be revealed."

"Itachi does not appear to kill simply for the sake of it, but instead seems to use just enough force to achieve his goals."

"Likewise, he could have easily killed Kakashi and Sasuke, but instead chose to torture them with his Mangekyo Sharingan so that they would witness his power."

"Genjutsu is Itachi's main area of expertise."

If these aren't speculations, then I suppose I don't know how 'speculation' is defined in the wikipedia world. -Sphinxridd 20:39, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Most of those are simple statements of fact. I'll give you the power thing. That can go. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 20:43, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't mean to be argumentative - but a statment starts with "...does not appear to..." is a speculation. otherwise you'd say, "Itachi does not kill simply for the sake of it..." anyway, all I'm saying is a small amount of speculation is unavoidable and I understand where the other guy is coming from. - Sphinxridd 20:57, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I can agree with that. Done. This guy wanted to expand Itachi and now we've gone and made his section shorter. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 20:59, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

hehe. I wonder how he had planned to fill up a standalone page for itachi. --Sphinxridd 21:35, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I still can't understand why you're denying Itachi his own article. If he's a nearly major character in the series, and information on him can make up a decent sized article, he should have his own article. --Itachi Uchiha13 21:27, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

If we can write more on Kakuzu, who was introduced later, then Itachi sure isn't getting his own article. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 21:31, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

The demon fox is more central to the story than Itachi, and the demon fox didn't even get a page of its own. --Sphinxridd 21:35, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

"Itachi's abilities lie mainly in ninjutsu and genjutsu" looks like speculation to me, unless some character states as much. "To date, Itachi has been shown using primarily ninjitsu and genjutsu in confrontations" would be better. TheronJ 21:02, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I already clipped part of that. Now it's fixed. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 21:03, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Someguy0830 I really don't know what your issue issue but please don't have a spaz attack. I don't understand why you're being so confrontational, I really don't have time to waste on a fight. So anyway his father said he doesn't like making friends. This is important because it deals with Itachi isolative behaviour. His mother's line may not be as important but if you read that part in the anime or the manga, its shows her concern and saddness as she knows the weirdness that going around Itachi. That much isn't speculation. If I were to say that this line shows that she knew he was evil and got the clan to try to kill him, then that's speculation but I'm not going that far. All I'm saying is that this line exists and has something to do with his character and his mom. That's all. When I was talking about Shisui I meant including the stuff about how he was sent to spy on Itachi. Anyone following the Naruto story knows that criminals especially S ranked one are chased after by hunter nins. That's why hunter nins exist to chase after convicted criminals. Obviously Kishimoto not going to show people after every single person but we do know villages send them after criminals. Hunter nins are obviously high level ninja and Itachi has obviously killed his fair share and copied their jutsus because its impossible to believe that with the sharingan and its copying abilities all he has is the mangekyou sharingan. I'm not going to include the hunter nins part in the article, I'm just using it to show that you can't classify him as a genjutsu specialist because we just don't know enough about the guy to do that. Tsunade is medical specialist, Kurenai is a genjutsu specialist, because people in the manga have said that they are but no one has called Itachi a genjutsu specialist. Kakashi has shown water and lightning jutsu but we know he has more than that because he knows like 1000 jutsu as the manga states, so we can't classify him as a water and lightning jutsu specialist. Using this same reasoning Itachi can't be put under the simple classification of a genjutsu specialist. Please reply nicely and I will reply nicely, like I said I don't want to start a fight with you. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.108.56.182 (talk • contribs).

You say so much yet haven't listened to a word I've said. None of that is the least bit certain. We don't know if any hunter-nin were sent after Itachi, we don't know what his mother thought about his behavior. Pay attention for once. Nothing you suggest is the least bit certain. Just because you've drawn a conclusion that makes sense to you doesn't mean it's right or that it belongs here. Type as much as you wish, because that fact will not change. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 18:12, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

last i checked, we are no longer calling Itachi a "specialist in genjutsu". I agree with your logic, 74.108.56.182, but you should really read the latest version of Itachi's article before typing up a big paragraph. ;p --Sphinxridd 18:38, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

here you go. this is the edit I was talking about. I'm using quotes whereever its necessary, specially in those areas that are really debatable. Someguy0830 please tell me if you still feel I'm being too speculative because I AM listening to everything you're saying. I'm not including the hunter nin that was just to get a point across. I'm just trying to give background information to an important character. I'm really trying to understand you so please try and understand me as well. Just give me an honest opinion on what I've written before you start deleting stuff tell me what you feel is wrong with it. Noman953

nice details added, btw. since you went into greater details re: the confrontation between the 3 clan members and Itachi, maybe it should also be mentioned that Itachi in the end apologized for his remarks and denied the murder accusation. i don't know why, maybe because he spotted sasuke listening, but that's speculative.

also, "When three of his clan members confronted him on this matter, Itachi assaulted and effortlessly defeated all of them" did he defeat them? I thought his father interrupted before any real damage.

"...that if he wants to kill him he must spend his life hating him and acquire the Mangekyo Sharingan." Itachi didn't say that. He said something along the line, sasuke wasn't worth killing and if sasuke wants to hate, detest and kill him, sasuke should run and cling to life.

"Orochimaru has admitted that Itachi is stronger than he is, which is why he left Akatsuki in the first place." this is highly speculative. it could be one of the reasons, but no one knows exactly why Orochimaru left Akatsuki.

"However, a clone of Itachi created by the Akatsuki Leader, was defeated by Naruto's Odamaa Rasengan." kinda gives the wrong impression. does a clone's strength created by soemone else correlate to the real person's strength at all?

if we are going to cover him in great details, his encounter with Sasuke might also be mentioned, i.e. him telling sasuke is weak because he lacks hatred.

I didn't want to edit the article because I've only read the manga once and in a hurry. I didn't want to mess up the facts/speculations.

--Sphinxridd 20:13, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

thank you for replying kindly, respect is all I really want between people posting. sinnce I have been accused of being a speculation monster I used quotes to avoid bias.

1. we should add Itachi's apology after Sasuke screaming because its obvious that that's what made him kneel down. I'll see what I can do about that part.
2. he defeated and knocked all of the three clan members to the ground. defeated means he beat, I didn't say kill them,. remember if we just say he assaulted them then that's not enough because they were all knocked onto the floor.
3. Itachi's speech to Sasuke should be quoted as well. Telling him to hate him and acquire the mangekyou sharingan is what he told him to do. i remember that part clearly. the extra stuff like running and clinging to life was also in his speech but I didn't know how to add it in because he different translations seem to give different messages. But I would prefer we find his exact quote for this.
4. I remember Orochimaru's exact words to Kabuto after the Konoha invasion "if we had Uchiha Itachi to begin with this wouldn't have happened. But that is a far gone dream now. He is far stronger than I am. That's why I left that organization" there may indeed be other reason for Orochimaru leaving. I'm only writing down what I've seen and I feel going beyond that would be speculative. Itachi may be the only reason he left or one of them but we just don't know anymore than that.
5. his clone being beaten is interpretative as well. some could say he lost on purpose. or naruto could be becoming a strong ninja. if you look the jutsu that the leader used its one that copies everything about someone even their kekkei genkei so its better than other clone jutsu. I'll add your concern about the clone not being as powerful into the article.
6. I suppose we could add his encounter with naruto and Sasuke in the article, give me time and I'll do it or you can do it.

I am concerned about how you edited the article though. Why you remove the translation on to tes my ability and the other stuff with it. When Itachi was talking about all three of them being killed he was referring to naruto's power not Jiraiya's. you also removed a lot of the quotes I added. the reason I put quotes in was so that people can come with their own conclusions of his goals via reading them. the quotes of him fighting his three members were important.--Noman953

"When Itachi was talking about all three of them being killed he was referring to naruto's power not Jiraiya's." You clearly do not know what you're talking about. Naruto was in no way skilled enough, dangerous enough, or in any way that severe of a threat. They were talking about Jiraiya. Quotes are excessive and riduculous in most cases. They don't need to be there when paraphrasing works just as well. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 01:55, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

there you go being confrontational AGAIN. from what I've read he was talking about the nine tails since they can't compete with a fully nine tailed naruto and Jiraiya was going to cause extra trouble that's why they needed to get rid of him. quotes are necessary because they show the article lacks bias. paraphrasing involves bias, which is funny because you yourself were so against speculation so quotes were necessary. --Noman953

Your logic makes no sense whatsoever. If they feared Naruto, why try to kidnap him at all? They specifically mention Jiraiya beforehand. Also, you're trying to use quotes to back up your speculation when it is still such. You're just interpreting it in the way you want to. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 02:10, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

if you want to talk logic then its your argumentative and confrontational behavior that lacks logic. of couse they fear Naruto. the biju inside him is powerful if not the strongest biju of all but something being powerful isn't going to stop them from going after it. jiraiya was excess baggage that needed to be removed, thats all. you accused me of being too speculative so I used quotes then you started complaining about the unnecessary use of quotes. I'm not putting any of this in the article. I think I have shown the ability to remove speculation from fact. Everything that I've written about Itachi is what happened in the manga and the anime, none of it are my beliefs on the matter. all I ever wanted to do with this article was expand it to include known information about this character; a process that you've made very difficult. I don't know where is this fussiness comes from. Why am I the only one here you attack? you didn't include background information on him so I did. wikipedians should be able to contribute information without going through this Hell, man. And you know what I've done that so there isn't any point of me writing and arguing on this post with you because I've achieved what I came here to do. --Noman953

They did not fear Naruto. Kisame can cut through chakra with his sword. They had absolutely nothing to fear from Naruto. Your argument that they somehow consider Naruto a threat just makes no sense. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 02:40, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree with both Someguy and Noman...just on different things. Someguy you are confrontational, to the point of being a little scary, but perhaps you are extremely aware of the rules of Wikipedia and simply doing your best to enforce them, I don't know. But believe me Noman you are not the only person he has gotten on. That said you are wrong on this argument of Kisame and Itachi were scared of Naruto. They specifically stated in Manga and anime referred to him by name and title as one of the Sannin that they were scared of Jiraiya. This is further evidenced by the fact that they were in complete control when they confronted Naruto and their elaborate scheme to separate the two. Ninetails or not a Genin at his level is not gonna be able to handle the two of them (see Orochimaru shutting up the Kyubi in the Forest of Death). As far as details and paraphrasing vs direct quotes go, personally I believe in more details is better especially in an encyclopedaic context. However Wikipedia as per their guidlines don't appear to agree, so whichever gets the effective message across in the least amount of space should be used. On the subject of Itachi's speech what is currently in the article gets the gist of it, hate me, detest me, and when you have the same eyes as me come before me, becomes the concise hate me and get the Mangekyo Sharingan. I do believe as insight into Itachi and Sasuke that the last part of the speech should be added as well, Run, run, and cling to life should be added as well. This in short would become survive at all costs, signifying Itachi's desire to have Sasuke get stronger and more of Sasuke's motivations.Rayfire 19:30, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

no offense, but damn does anyone have anything better to do than write a an essay on the computer about a person who does not exist except in a japanese comic book! And Rayfire don't go dissing people you don't know I myself have gotten into numerous arguements with someguy and I still have no clue as to why he acts the way he does just like how you have no clue into why I act the way I do (wow I finally agree with Someguy, its a Hanukkah miracle!) so please don't diss people you don't know. Happy Hanukkah!Sam ov the blue sand 23:10, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Would it be possible for someone to at least write a sandbox article on Itachi just to see how it looks? According to the page history, people just keep copying and pasting this information into a new page. I'd like to see it in the format similar to the other characters. It would also be nice to compare it to the shorter character articles like Shizune and Chiyo. 72.155.151.203 03:16, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

now that's logic! I second the idea of trying it in the sandbox.--Kenshin -Himura 21:03, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Failed GA

I failed this article for Good Article status. Per [1] (the article when I was reviewing), this article does not conform with the Manual of Style (writing about fiction). The whole article is written from the perspective of the fiction. Where is the author/creator? How about its development history? Popularity of the subject in the real world? etc. Go dig more research of this subject! Find more reliable sources rather than the manga itself. When all of these matters are resolved, then this article can be resubmitted again. — Indon (reply) — 18:24, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

that's some authority you have there - being able to put a banner on top of the page suggesting that it needs cleanup. so what happens if no one cleans it up according to the rules you referenced?--Sphinxridd 22:35, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Anybody can put the template up. It has nothing to do with authority. It'll stay up until the page is fixed. Who put this up for GA anyways? It was obviously not ready. Nemu 22:39, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

i was being sarcastic because of his tone. --Sphinxridd 22:48, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

but yea, the article is far from well written. I suspect while the story is ongoing and while there is weekly development of Akatsuki, many casual editors (like me) who may not know the rules of wikipedia editing would tempt to edit the article. When there are many different writing styles mixed together, the overall quality of the article suffers. --Sphinxridd 23:00, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

How do we get other sources besides the manga it is primarly manga, did he even know it was an anime/manga article, because it sure doesn't seem like it. I believe this article is ready for nomination.Sam ov the blue sand 00:43, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I must say, I have not seen reasons for a failed GA that were so bad in my life. - Malomeat 02:20, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

You call those bad reasons? A encyclopedia needs a standard for how articles written, and this article does indeed not meet that standard (in this case, the writing about fiction guideline). NeoChaosX (he shoots, he scores!) 02:32, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Should we use the word "greed" for Kakuzu?

Ok, this is the topic that me and Someguy0830 have had a long controversy. As far as I'm concerned, we should not use the word "greedy", or "greedy" or "obvious greed" to depict as Kakuzu's characteristic. The info should be change to "strong desire for money". Someguy suggests me to bring it on this discussion. What about others' opinion?Causesobad 08:38, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

"Strong desire for money" is basically the definition for the word "greed". Unless you want to replace all of the words in the article with their definition, I see no reason why all two instances of the word "greed" should be replaced. ~SnapperTo 21:51, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Keep greed. The only reason to use "desire for money" in place of one of the two instances of greed would be as a stylistic choice to avoid redundancy. --tjstrf talk 22:38, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

And even then, do comments like money being the only dependable thing in the world and not caring about hell due to money signify a just simple desire for money? I sort of doubt that. Nemu 23:20, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Greed is not always desire for money. It refers to material things in general. So if you said that it's a "basically definition for the word "greed" is wrong. For Kakuzu's case, he likes money, and money itself. Money becomes a tangible object for his desire. "Greed" is a wide range of material lust in general, but up till now, we don't know, also we can see or at least be mentioned in the series that Kakuzu has used money he got to serve his assumed-lust for "material thing" or not. For Kakuzu, money-loving has become a syndrome, not serving for his own need to use it, so we can't apply the word "greed" for him. Causesobad 18:42, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Greed isn't always about money, but it is most of the time. Kakuzu has an unhealthy obsession with money, he desires more and more money, he cares more for money than people, ect. All of those fit greed. Nemu 18:52, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

He calls himself the treasurer of Akatsuki. He's not greedy? But Greed is an unhealthy obsession with material things, most commonly assigned to food or money. I think in leiu of greedy we should try something more "P.C.". Seriously I think money-motivated would work well for him, unless someone in story calls him greedy.Rayfire 19:32, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Maybe it's a hobby that's evolved into an obsession? While he seemes to enjoy collecting cash, we don't have any proof that he greedily holds on to the money... One could go with the explenation that he's nothing more but a mere(?) treasurer. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.228.148.167 (talk) 20:59, 22 December 2006 (UTC).

Hidan's Prayer Beads

So I was reading through this Akatsuki page today and I noticed that it says the charm on his beads is an upside-down triangle inside of a circle. I got confused for a bit because I knew that I had been drawing it as a rightside-up triangle and had been using references. The colored cover from chapter 317 (which is shown in the article as Hidan's picture) indeed shows it being upside-down. This got me to looking through the manga from where Hidan first appeared in 312 until the beads were broken when Asuma decapitated him.

When Hidan first takes them out in 313 to pray before fighting Yugito, the triangle is upside-down. They are not really shown again until the 317 cover where he is first seen wearing them as a necklace and it is upside-down again. The beads are not clearly shown after that until Hidan starts his voodoo ritual against Team Asuma where the triangle is rightside-up. For the rest of the fight until the beads are broken, the triangle remains rightside-up. So, I was right in my drawings, but the article is also right...

What should we do then? Would it be best to keep the orientation of the triangle out of the article to prevent contradiction? Kangarugh22 18:23, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

The volume 36 cover that can be seen now on leafninja.com has Hidan and Kakuzu on it. The triangle is rightside-up. I would say that's the way Kishimoto wants it now that's it's been on a volume cover.Kangarugh22 00:33, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

A real article for Hidan and/or Kakuzu

I'm not trying to start an arguement or an edit war but I believe that it will be time to make a new article for Hidan and/or Kakuzu. Maybe in a few more chapters or when the battle between Team 10 and them is over.Sam ov the blue sand 15:59, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

They won't need articles unless they survive seeing as the sections won't become much larger otherwise. Nemu 18:01, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

To be fair, the Third Hokage's article is shorter, but he also has databook info. Still I agree with Nemu. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 18:04, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Wait until they either survive this battle or are dead, please. --tjstrf talk 18:16, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Didn't I say that? And Nemu look at the archives (August to September) a dission (I spelled it wrong) was made about your comment (the one about it getting any bigger if he/they were to die). Plus Tjstrf when there is enough info on these articles it would help you make this a GA article.Sam ov the blue sand 20:43, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

I think we should update it constantly, but not try to go beyond certain "borders"... It's rather pointless to recite an entire battle, as well as including minor facts that don't belong. For example, is it really necessary to spend so much of Kakuzu's article to give depth to Hidan & Kakuzu's relationship, or Kakuzu's money obsession? (Seriously, those parts alone takes up at least one fourth of Kakuzu's article)... Try to set the goal at making this page look like something you could find in an encyclopedia, not something an Otaku would know by heart.

lets think here...no, there has to the tiniest detail in a article like this, because every other Naruto related article is like that.Sam ov the blue sand 00:00, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

That's the wrong idea, but the right motivation. Tiny details would be something like "he tosses shuiken with his left thumb extended." I realize that's a pretty awful example, but bear with me. His relationship with Hidan, them being partners and all, is a relevant portion of his character. Likewise, his greed is equally important. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 00:15, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I didn't mean that much detail just the latter of which you spoke of.Sam ov the blue sand 01:34, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Well I think you guy's missed something from the Hidan article. His forehead protector points to rain village and you guys said that we don't know his village. Well they are stripes that represent rain but they are kind of crooked so we don't know if it's the creator's mess up or something or we got a new village (highly unlikely). Well just saying.

It's most likely not Rain, since the Rain symbol has 4 lines while Hidan's forehead protector only has three. That plus the lines are crooked -> too many differences, thus not Rain unless Kishimoto says otherwise. //Frostious 16:49, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Its clearly Hidden Grass Village Kusagakure in Nature. He's definately an outcast from the land of Grass. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.190.50.134 (talk) 14:41, 21 January 2007 (UTC).

No offense, but I love it when IP's come in here trying to stump us but are proven to be wrong.Sam ov the blue sand 00:17, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Isn't Kakuzu's headband for the hidden Waterfall Village? or was that a mispost by some one? did I even see that here? Xeago 04:01, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

When did Itachi join Akatsuki?

In Akatsuki's first meeting which happened in chapter 238, it was mentioned that they had not met in a group like this for 7 years. Itachi was present. According to Itachi's profile, he was 18 in the part I. So he was 11 or younger when he joined Akatsuki? Wasn't it also mentioned that he became a Chuunin at 10, and became an ANBU sqad leader at 13 or something? so how early did he defect? --Sphinxridd 05:04, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I believe he/she meant that they had not met up in more than groups of two rather than the rather large group that was present at the time, or maybe they hadn't had all 9 members at the time since Itachi maybe Itachi replaced a dead former member or something along those lines.Sam ov the blue sand 17:45, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I just happened to watch the episode again. (...and reread the manga chapter to confirm) - it says they haven't met like this since 7 years ago when Orochimaru left the organization, and we know that Orochimaru and Itachi belonged together to Akatsuki at one point because Orochimaru left Akatsuki because of Itachi growing stronger. So Itachi was already a member 7 years ago, which means he joined before he was 11 years old. is that right?!?! Orochimaru couldn't beat Itachi when Itach was 11 or younger?! --Sphinxridd 07:18, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

He could have joined without all the members being present at once, which is what they mean. 217.208.27.4 20:46, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

But going by that theory, Itachi would've joined Akatsuki BEFORE Orochimaru defected, making him even younger. 217.208.27.4 20:46, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

No he was there because Orochimaru said so.Sam ov the blue sand 22:04, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Unknown Voice Actor

I couldn't help but notice that Deidara's part of the article is saying he's been given a 'very deep, male voice' in the anime. Now, as a Naruto fan myself, I try and keep up with this kind of stuff, and I havn't found anything supporting this. Should this be taken out, or at least that handy little 'citation needed' thing added? Ansalo 08:26, 16 December 2006 (UTC)Ansalo 23:25 15 December 2006

Episode 135, last two minutes. It's made quite clear that it's him. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 08:32, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

It's very definitely him. He's upside down, if I recall. As he is only a silhouette, it might be a little difficult to recognise him. However he was also given that little 'huh' sound that he always ends his sentances with. Retlor 21:57, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

elements

Each mask creature is able to control and attack with a specific chakra element: the eagle uses wind, the lion uses fire, and the ox uses lightning. The broken mask is never given the chance to display its element. Isn't the next element available/left water?????

The Broken Mask is Earth. It was confirmed already since lightning element chakra beats Earth Style Chakra of his Iron Skin. He might have not stolen the heart of a water style chakra user yet which is why he only has four masks not 5.

Nope. We don't know what mask it was. We know that he used an earth jutsu to protect himself, and that it was beaten, but we don't know that it was the earth heart that was pierced after kakashi broke through and destroyed _A_ heart. We know that he can use all FIVE affinities, and he has four masks, thus he has an affinity IN ADDITION to the masks. Therefore, it could be just as likely that his natural, original affinity is earth, and the broken mask was a water one. I'm sure all this will eventually be explained in the manga, so there is certainly no pressing need to speculate, even here.Plunge 01:50, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

im just saying the broken mask should be water but im not sure. the only reason i think this is because every jutsu he used for the masks the masks came off his body where as when he used the earth jutsu no masks where shown.Hoshigaki Kisame 13:21, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Yondaime is AL

"The Akatsuki Leader is rumored to be th 4th Hokage ,Yondaime. These rumors are confirmed in the latest Manga of Naruto released in Japan"

First of all, this was in Deidara's space. Second, I cant remove it. This is vandilizism. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Countmall (talk • contribs) 02:50, 18 December 2006 (UTC).

-It's bull. The latest release was chapter 335, in which nothing of the sort was revealed. AL didn't even appear. Either a vandal or some deluded fan trying to persuade people that their right. Retlor 13:14, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

-Not possible for the 4th to be Akatsuki Leader, chapter cover 317 clearly shows the leader having brown hair

i use to be like that but then i saw the light it truly is impossible.

Kakuzu Killing the Shodai Hokage.

Is it safe to assume that Kakuzu killed the Shodai Hokage, judging from chapter 336?Vrtrahex 01:17, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

No. That didn't look like the First. Too young. All we know is that they fought. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 01:18, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Someguy is right, while Kakuzu stated that he had fought Shodai Hokage and while most Shinobi battles ends up with one combatant dead, it's still too early to assume that Kakuzu killed Shodai. Unless officialy stated, we can only assume that they "duked it out", so to say.

That makes him, at least, 120+ years old. I still think it's too early to add that though... - !Malomeat 00:46, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

If he did kill him, would he be able to use the Mokuton? Lascoden 05:12, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Presumably. Using the heart would allow for it. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 05:17, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

The guy that was shown having his heart taken out was a random guy from Sand Village. Look at the forehead protector. Kangarugh22 17:28, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Besides that, if Kakuzu did have Shodai's heart, at was prably killed by the Nidaime or other shinobi.

It would probebly be worn out at that point Lascoden 01:36, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Itachi's Lines

Why does Itachi have lines going from his eyes to his nose? 74.234.47.25 22:08, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

It's just part of his facial structure. If you look at Kakuzu, he has similar features under his eyes. In a black and white comic, lines are often used instead of shading or coloring to show where aging might have occured. I would think that they might be fron lack of sleep or something similar, but thats just conjecture on my part. Xeago 03:20, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

No, I've actually seen some guys with "lines" like that... One of them attended my previous school... It's actually just wrinkles, caused by stretched skin on the nose, continuing down the cheeks. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 217.208.26.179 (talk) 21:46, 6 January 2007 (UTC).

New Picture

I added a colored version of the sealing statue of Akatsuki. Hope I helped. Please don't delete it. Gaara the Fifth Kazekage 02:38, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Colored pictures, with few exceptions, are fan art and get removed automatically. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 03:16, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

But this is cool fan-art...Gaara the Fifth Kazekage 05:43, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

How "cool" something is is irrelevant. It's a misrepresentation of the subject because the actual colors are never shown. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 05:44, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. And sign with four tildes. --Tohru Honda13^{Sign here!} 05:47, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Hidan's Ritual Appearance

I wish to propose that the description of Hidan's "Grim Reaper"-like appearance be changed because it much more closely resembles images of the Vodoun(Voodoo) loa of the dead known as Baron Samedi. Skeletal visage and scythe do not a reaper make. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Trilaan (talk • contribs) 15:31, 30 December 2006 (UTC).

A presonification of death is a personification of death, regardless of the religion which spurs the myth. When describing an appearance of such a personification, it's best to use the description most people will instantly associate with a face. People read "Voodoo Loa of the dead known as Baon Samedi" and they think, "Who the hell is that?" – Someguy0830 (T | C) 18:40, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Then I would simply like to request that since the description in the character stats listing says "Grim-Reaper-like" that the second instance in the 5th paragraph also says Grim Reaper-like if for nothing else than for article consistency.

Consistency is all well and good, but it can detract, too. It's repetitive to use thesame phrase over and over if it can be avoided. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 21:44, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't understand where you're coming from, honestly. Perhaps you could privately give me a longer explanation as to why you are so set against this alteration. It's true this is a minor thing but it's something I strongly believe in.

I actually don't care, nor was I the one to reverse it. This is merely the reasoning. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 22:10, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I apologize. So who is the proper person to take it up with?

I don't see why you care so much because no one will ever except "Voodoo Loa of the dead known as Baon Samedi" becuase the majority of people don't know who the hell he/she/it is and know the grim reaper more than your guy.Sam ov the blue sand 01:24, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

But it is true that the markings that shows up on Hidan's body during his curse ritual does bear a striking resemblance to the body paintings that are used in some voodoo rituals... And the long spike he uses to finnish his opponent off, gives me accosiations to the voodoo dolls that you stick needles into, to make your victim feel pain and such... Baron Samedi is as much fictional as the grim reaper, but lesser known of, voodoo is real (as far as religion goes) but I don't know if we have any pictures of that particular body painting, in medieval times, the picture of the grim reaper as an skeleton was the most common one, but these days when the word "grim reaper" is used, most people associate it with someone dressed in a long, black, hooded, robe, looking nothing like Hidan's curse form... Well, that's our options, none of them working out perfectly well.

Ov vey, just drop it, ask a random person "who does this look like?" and they will most likely say the grim reaper and if you said do you know who "Voodoo Loa of the dead known as Baon Samedi" is they will most likely say you the hell is that?Sam ov the blue sand 18:11, 21 January 2007 (UTC)