Talk:Air21 Express (2012–2014)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: move. This is the standard practice, so I agree it's uncontroversial. I will leave a request at WP:BOTREQ to change all current link and once that has been completed I'll move the page. Jenks24 (talk) 09:05, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

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Air21 Express (2011-present) → Air21 Express – This should be pretty uncontroversial, however, another team had used the Air21 Express name before, now called the Barako Bull Energy. While the present Air21 team can lay claim on primary topic status solely for the reason that they're the last (or current) team known as the Air21 Express, there are a lot of incoming links to Air21 Express that should link to Barako Bull Energy. So the primary purpose of this RM is for a bot to relink all incoming Air21 Express links (except for dabs) to Barako Bull Energy, rename this article to "Air21 Express", then relink articles that were previously linked to "Air21 Express (2011-present)" to "Air21 Express". (I guess this was like the Winnipeg Jets problem.) –HTD 20:22, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Proposed move to Air21 Express

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved, only 10 months late.... Jenks24 (talk) 14:19, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

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Air21 Express (2011–present) → Air21 Express – This move is proposed by User:Howard the Duck. See reasoning below. Request was moved here from WP:RM/TR. EdJohnston (talk) 21:38, 1 April 2013 (UTC) – An RM on June 2012 ended with consensus to move, but 10 months later, it still hasn't been moved to the agreed upon destination, but is instead moved somewhere else to keep with year WP:ENDASH. –HTD 15:33, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Puzzled - The closer of the June 2012 move discussion said he would do the article move *after* some links had been fixed. Judging from the current incoming links to Air21 Express this has not yet been done. Under your theory, the name 'Air21 Express' would only refer to the team for 2011-present, and so there would be no links to it from various championships that took place in the early 2000s. It is understandable that the 2011-present team can inherit the *name* Air21 Express but they should not also inherit the playing history of a different team. That other team is currently known as Barako Bull Energy Cola, but carried various names in the past, all of them listed in the sidebar of that article. Given how messy this is it could be simpler to create a DAB page for Air21 Express with various links to what that name implied at different times. Then we would keep Air21 Express (2011–present) as the name of the current team. Maybe other solutions are possible. EdJohnston (talk) 17:23, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

This can be solved in these easy steps:

1. All incoming links to Air21 Express should be changed to Barako Bull Energy Cola, pipelinked as "Air21 Express". Either by a bot or by a human.
2. Move Air21 Express (2011–present) to Air21 Express.
3. All incoming links to Air21 Express (2011–present) should be changed to Air21 Express. Either by a bot or by a human.

At this time (April 2013), the primary topic for "Air21 Express" is the franchise founded in 2011, not the franchise that now carries the Barako Bull Energy Cola name. This is quite similar to the Winnipeg Jets situation. –HTD 19:18, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

You must be referring to almost the entire talk page at Talk:Winnipeg Jets. Can you summarize what that issue was, how it was resolved, and say whether you agree with it? Thanks, EdJohnston (talk) 19:38, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

It's like this:

1. There was an original Winnipeg Jets team. However, it went to Arizona to become the Phoenix Coyotes.
2. A few years ago, someone bought the Atlanta Thrashers team, and brought it to Winnipeg, renaming it as the Winnipeg Jets.
3. Now the question is: Which article gets the "Winnipeg Jets" name? They did the logical thing: the current Jets team is the primary topic. The original Jets team gets to have a disambiguated title.

It's somewhat similar in the Air21/Barako Bull case:

1. The original Red Bull/Barako Bull franchise is sold to the same guy that owns the Air21 Express team. He renames his old team as the "Barako Bull Energy", now known as "Barako Bull Energy Cola".
2. As for the team he just bought (the original Red Bull/Barako Bull team), he can't claim the records for that team since he bought it (the Philippine Basketball Association is a "company" league); however, his purchase included the players that were still under contract. He renamed this "new" team as the Shopinas.com Clickers, later renamed as the Air21 Express.

Now the question is: How are the articles being titled and how about the redirects? The short answer is that the team that has the current name has the dibs on any name vs. the teams that had a similar name. Longer answers:

1. The original Red Bull/Barako Bull franchise is dead. We won't have issues linking to Barako Bull Energy Boosters (2000–2011).
2. The original Air21 Express/now Barako Bull franchise is the primary topic from any team that had the Barako Bull name. That's why Barako Bull Energy Boosters (2000–2011) is disambiguated.
3. The new Air21 Express franchise is the primary topic for all teams with the "Air21" name. That's why Air21 Express (2011–present) should not be disambiguated.

–HTD 20:00, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

• Comment. I am happy to move this as an uncontroversial move once the links have been updated, but not before. I left a request at BOTREQ when I last closed this RM and an editor started updating all the incoming links (there were a lot more then) but didn't finish the job and it slipped my mind to follow up on it. Glancing at the incoming links now, this is not a job for the bot as some of the links should point to this article. As for the discussion above, Howard is quite right that the standard practice for sports franchises that are moved is for the 'current' team to be the primary topic. And although there are exceptions to this rule of thumb (see e.g. New York Cosmos) I was and still happy to make the move seeing as no one has made an outright objection.

tl;dr – I will move it once the links are fixed. Jenks24 (talk) 09:37, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

I'll see what I can do on the incoming links. –HTD 12:01, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

I did all I can, but "What links here" is either lagged or I'm missing something... –HTD 13:30, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. Sometimes it takes a while for the templates to 'filter through' (not sure what the correct technical term is), so I'll check back in half an hour or so to see if it's all cleared up. Jenks24 (talk) 13:42, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

Still hasn't updated but I checked through most of them and there were no links remaining so I'm confident they've all been fixed. Jenks24 (talk) 14:19, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.